Sand
 

I live in a part of New Jersey where there are very few unpaved roads. There's the Delaware and Raritan Canal, which is nice but boring if you've done it before, and a few roads that are unpaved for a mile or two here and there.

But not too far south of me, there's the Pinelands. Colloquially called the Pine Barrens. I've spent years exploring the paved roads through there, and there are a few, and some of them are pretty nice. But most of the roads are sand. Miles and miles of sand roads. Sometimes the sand is almost as hard as pavement, and you just roll. And without warning it can get as soft as sugar, and your tires dig right in. But usually it's somewhere in between, and with the right tires, at fairly low pressure, you can ride without much trouble.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-D...2/IMG_0881.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_...2/IMG_0907.JPG

Anyone else ride on sand? Got any advice on technique, tires, etc?

Here in central FL any unpaved riding is likely to include a significant amount of sand. And Florida sugar sand is so fine it makes most of the stuff I've seen in the Pine Barrens look like pea gravel :) It can get really dry in the winter months, so 6 - 8" deep sections of loose sand is not uncommon. I still haven't found a tire that I really like. Wider tires give you more float so you don't burn as much power, but seem to sacrifice all control. Narrower tires that dig in more let you retain a little directional control but create a lot of rolling resistance as they slice through the loose sand.

In terms of technique, you need to try to spot to the soft stuff and keep your weight to the rear on entry so you don't plant the front tire and go over the bars. Obviously wide tires help reduce this risk. Always try to enter with the front wheel straight. You're going to lose most of the caster effect so any steering input will tend to abruptly increase as the front wheel starts to float. After that, it's mostly a matter of staying light on the bars, putting down power, and letting the bike go where the sand decides to take it.

The good news is that falling off the bike in the sand is usually relatively painless :)

I recommend Pugsley! ;) Actually, any fatbike will do...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-S...082547_129.jpg

a CX race course often includes a sand Pit section , to make you work hard every Lap.

+1
with Black Floyd tires

There are some trails here that get real soft and sandy. I'm usually out there on 35mm tires at 30-40psi (I'm not so exact in my inflation procedures). For technique all I an say is stay relaxed, keep your weight back, let the bike float, pedal in a low gear to the keep the wheels turning.

man I hate sand. I use to live in Tampa and some of the riding we had there was mostly sand trails. I ended up selling my mountain bike because it sucked so bad. I'd love to try a fat tire bike on that though. Doubt I'd use anything else on sand though. Just no fun.

I hate sand!

I just got back from a 'gravel' event on Saturday which included a 10 mile section of road which was pretty much all sand. It came at mile 47 of a 100 mile route and it basically chewed me up and spat me into a ditch.

There's obviously some kind of technique involved as I saw many tracks which were going pretty straight....then mine which were slipping and sliding all over the place. I was running 40mm WTB Nanos since most of the course was gravel/dirt.

I guess I just need to practice. :rolleyes:

Might want to check your frame alignment and wheel dish. The centerlines of the front and rear wheels need to be almost perfectly aligned or the bike will tend to wander all over the place when it hits the sand. Grippy tires like the Nanos will exacerbate this.

If alignment looks good, then you may need to shift your weight back more. I actually drop my saddle 5mm for sandy rides so I can comfortably sit back a little more when I hit the sand.

If I may resurrect the thread. This evening I'm picking up a Diverge A1 for cheap. I live near Ft. Bragg and they have the All American trail. It's around 25 miles long (will be extended to 70). The surface is exactly like the OP described, even looks the same. Lots of hardpacked sand, but sections of deeper stuff as well. I rode it on my MTB and it sucked, the knobbies dug in too much. There is a 50 mile road loop I ride there, but the trail parallels the west side and I could do the loop 50/50 on/off road.

So I need a tire for it. It's possible the Specialized Espoir Sport tires on it now will be good. Any recommendations? Pic of the bike and tires below, you can kind of see the tread. From my understanding, this bike can fit up to a 38c but that may be a little too big for me.

https://images.craigslist.org/01212_...W_1200x900.jpg

https://images.craigslist.org/00x0x_...h_1200x900.jpg

even 38c probabably won't be good enough for deep sand. 40c is probably the minimum depending on your weight

But what kind of tread? That's more important to me than a few mm's of difference in size. My MTB tire was a huge 2.50 and they sucked. I mean if 38 is the biggest I can go then there's nothing I can do about that. I have some Pasela PT's on a vintage bike and I'm thinking they might actually be good. I don't expect to be able to glide over deep sand but I don't want to have to keep getting off and walking through it.

i don't find tread makes that much of a difference in sand. volume and pressure are the biggest factors

There's actually a race on the beach in Holland and a bike designed for it.

https://www.koga.com/en/bikes/race/c...beachracer.htm

2.35" smooth tire in back with 2.1" mini knobs in front.

I don't ride on sand roads, but we have gravel roads in upstate New York, and I enjoy them a lot. They're also steep, so the descents are exciting. After my ride, I check my stats on ridewithgps, and I'm surprised my max speed was only 25. It feels a lot faster than that. My gravel bike has a 28mm front tire and a 32mm rear tire. The only tip I have is to calculate my line and try to preplan how I'm going to weight the bike through the curvy descents. I have a half a second to plan some of these curves, which is part of the excitement.

A light coating of sand on an asphalt surface is where I've had all of my falls in recent years. I'm terrified of it.

Without question, if you expect to encounter sand, put the biggest tires you can fit on the bike. I promise you'll wish you had them, if you don't. As others, unless you are expecting to do prolonged sections of deep(er) sand, stick with slick tires (as a bonus, you can often fit slightly larger slicks, than knobbies). Especially with 'narrow' tires (that is, stuff under 40mm, or so) the compromise you make in casing width to fit tread is not worth the traction you gain in sand...the wimpy little knobs that you see on CX tires will do next to nothing to help you through sand.

You can often 'read' the trail, to some extent, with regards to sand. The loose stuff literally looks different from hardpack...you can unweight your front wheel and float through with a minimum of fuss, if you see it coming. You also should pay attention to the lay of the land, as loose sand collects in turns/dips in the trail. Again, if you see it, you can often avoid it. Especially on forest roads, I find that riding slightly closer to the vegetation (as opposed to dead center in the trail), you will find firmer ground.

A great analogue is riding on ice--never try to lean yourself/brake, once you feel the tires break loose, and you'll be okay. You must accept a certain loss of control.

I can't speak for the OP (never said what kind of bike it was? @rhm ?), but I've ridden the area that he was talking about, and anything smaller than 2" is not so fun, if you are expecting to enjoy yourself. Doable with 35mm+, if it's not only surface you're riding out there, in my opinion. I strongly believe in picking the 'right' tire for the job, and sometimes that's a compromise (riding 20 miles of road to get to the trail), but sometimes it's not (riding 40 miles ON the trail).

There is a MUP right along the beach where I live, and as Tom noted, just enough sand to completely cover the pavement is about the worst case for traction that you can get. Going through it anyway other that perfectly balanced/off the front wheel is an almost guaranteed wipeout.

Thanks, all who have contributed, for reviving this thread!

Since I wrote the original post, I have upped my game on the sand roads. I had Lance Mercado (squarebuilt bikes in Brooklyn) build me a frame that's basically your standard lightweight steel road bike of 40 years ago but it takes 26x2.3" tires.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4210/3...2aaa48e1_b.jpg

All in all an excellent bike, fun to ride on just about any surface.

I guess I neglected to mention, the Pinelands start 35 miles from home. If I'm going to go ride there, I'll be on the bike for two or three hours even before I get there. Then gimme 30 miles of sand, and ride home... you know, at that point the ride home is going to be as tough as the sand! :lol:

Accordingly the bike is designed for roads, primarily paved roads, but also sand where necessary. My main hope is to find the sand roads nicely packed down. If that's the case, they are a delight to ride. Alas sometimes kids on ATV's go out and chew them up, making a real mess. Either way, it is what it is, and when I get there I deal with it, and then I ride home again. Good times.

Wow, never seen that before. Basically a monstercross sorta setup.

This tire may work, the Challenge Gravel Grinder 38c. Looks like a good tread for sand and may be okay for the pavement. Anyone have an opinion on it? Kind of torn between it and the Pasela.

Got the bike, BTW. Went on a road ride and it's like a Cadillac CTS-V. Not the lightest, but it handles great and rides smooth on my chipseal roads.

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/o1kAAO...vh/s-l1600.jpg

What rims did you decide to go with on that bike? I wouldn't mind doing something similar with a vintage mountain bike, or the like.

The rims in the photo were a mistake. I'm still using them; but I'll get around to replacing them sooner or later. They are Sun Levanter MTB rims from the mid 80's, salvaged off a Cannondale MTB I found in the dumpster. They are pretty wide (which is good) and pretty light (which is good) but they are single wall rims, not as sturdy as more modern ones, and they were already pretty beat up before I built these wheels. It's hard to get spoke tension even, so the wheels tend to go out of true. A friend has found me some NOS rims that'll be a better match, but I haven't got them away from him yet.

As for building something similar from an old MTB, I been there, I done that...

The Square Built replaced this Univega:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4233/3...2be88cf2_b.jpg
It just wasn't right. Same wheels, handlebar, gears, etc. A lot of the parts just swapped over, while I upgraded some.

sand is evil. my 45mm Riddlers were fine for this road

http://i.imgur.com/TT8Smsk.jpg

but not fine for this road

http://i.imgur.com/1xT4Rt5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6MkAdxA.jpg

I'll be sticking to dirt or gravel

You'll have to forgive the ignorance, but other than the headtube angle and (maybe?) the rake on the fork, what did the Square change? What was your complaint, if you will, with the mountain bike?

I have used the ubiquitous 26x1.5" Weinmann single wall rims (presumably the spiritual cousins to your rims) on a coaster brake mountain bike that is sorely abused--mine were trash picks, too. Other than removing the possibility of using them tubeless, I found them to be satisfactory, from a durability standpoint, at least with large rubber on them. There have definitely been more than a few poorly timed log-overs; I wish that some manufacturer would make similarly sized rims, with an updated bead-shelf...but I have come to realize that I am, by far, in the minority...

No worries, those are good questions.

The SquareBuilt frame is much lighter; 2140g for the frame, which makes it as light as any older steel road bike, versus 3320g for the Univega. The Squarebuilt fork is also somewhat lighter than the Univega's (1140g vs 1290g).

The SquareBuilt geometry is 73 deg seat tube, 73 deg head tube, 6 cm offset; basically standard road racing geometry from the early 50's to the mid 70's (after which they got steeper). It's made for riding on more or less flat roads. The Univega, I'm not so sure; much more relaxed geometry, 68 or 70 degrees. I don't have the BB height numbers at hand now; but I think the Univega is a couple cm higher.

Anyway, those are the facts; what they're good for, that's another matter of course. The lower BB is most welcome. The SquareBuilt handles better than the Univega, but there isn't much difference, probably because of the thickness of the tires. The SquareBuilt's lighter steel (columbus SL, fwiw) has an excellent reputation for springy, responsive frames, whereas by my experience the Univega was a slug. Whether the lighter frame really lives up to expectations, I'm not going to swear it's the best thing ever, but all in all it is a much nicer bike and I'm happy with it (but who's ever disappointed with a new bike?).

As you say, the rims are basic and okay. Most importantly, I managed to get the tires seated well, with some effort. The fatter the tire, the more important it is, to seat the tire correctly!

I really like that tire, I put a hurting on a set last year, but I would buy another set, great on gravel and pavement. With that said, not sure it's that great on sand in particular, but I think that surface needs a lot more bike handling technique, regardless of tire.