28 vs 32 spokes - wheel build- my head hurts
06-23-16, 09:39 AM
#26
afraid of whales
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I dumped all my 319 and 719 wheels on ebay, I had 6 sets, some 36h, some 32h. It started with going tubeless on my MTB, I switched from 32h 319 to Stans Flow EX, 80gms lighter and much stiffer laterally. Did a little research to understand why.
Old design clincher beads are tall and have to be thick to resist dents. Tubeless ready rims have short beads that can be thinner. Result is lighter rims with same strength.
Old design clincher rims have constant wall thickness and ferrules. Tubeless ready rims have variable wall thickness with thicker spoke tracks, no ferrules. Lighter weight with same strength.
Recommending 600gm rims such as the 319 for a 185lb rider is silly, esp 36h. A modern rim such as the DT 460TR rim (460gm) is stronger than an Open Sport (510gm) and cheaper. No 36h, comes 32h, 28h, 24h. Retails for less than $40, comes in disc and rim brake versions. Much better rim than a Mavic Open Pro for less than half the price.
I just switched my commuter from 319s to 460s, saved 140gm per wheel and there's almost no difference in lateral flex.
Another good, low cost rim option is the SunRingle HelixTR 25 and 27 (490gm and 520gm). Retails for around $60, very strong. These rims have ferrules, too bad, they could be even lighter. I'm running these rims on my gravel grinder, two wheelsets, one 25, one set 27.
Old design clincher beads are tall and have to be thick to resist dents. Tubeless ready rims have short beads that can be thinner. Result is lighter rims with same strength.
Old design clincher rims have constant wall thickness and ferrules. Tubeless ready rims have variable wall thickness with thicker spoke tracks, no ferrules. Lighter weight with same strength.
Recommending 600gm rims such as the 319 for a 185lb rider is silly, esp 36h. A modern rim such as the DT 460TR rim (460gm) is stronger than an Open Sport (510gm) and cheaper. No 36h, comes 32h, 28h, 24h. Retails for less than $40, comes in disc and rim brake versions. Much better rim than a Mavic Open Pro for less than half the price.
I just switched my commuter from 319s to 460s, saved 140gm per wheel and there's almost no difference in lateral flex.
Another good, low cost rim option is the SunRingle HelixTR 25 and 27 (490gm and 520gm). Retails for around $60, very strong. These rims have ferrules, too bad, they could be even lighter. I'm running these rims on my gravel grinder, two wheelsets, one 25, one set 27.
06-23-16, 09:40 AM
#27
Sunshine
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Ive ridden Velocity A23s and Dyads. Neither seemed 'floppy, soft, and cheaply made'. They were straight as an arrow and stayed that way when I rode the bikes.
...these were for a few miles each and new rims, admittedly. I am planning on some A23s for a bike build thatll start in the coming months and will update everyone if they are so floppy and soft that I cant even stay upright.
...these were for a few miles each and new rims, admittedly. I am planning on some A23s for a bike build thatll start in the coming months and will update everyone if they are so floppy and soft that I cant even stay upright.
06-23-16, 09:42 AM
#28
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Mavic wheelsets are 5 years behind, when I went to replace my Aksiums on my road bike I went for a Shimano tubeless ready wheelset. Mavic can't come close to the features at $400 and not tubeless ready either.
06-23-16, 09:45 AM
#29
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Ive ridden Velocity A23s and Dyads. Neither seemed 'floppy, soft, and cheaply made'. They were straight as an arrow and stayed that way when I rode the bikes.
...these were for a few miles each and new rims, admittedly. I am planning on some A23s for a bike build thatll start in the coming months and will update everyone if they are so floppy and soft that I cant even stay upright.
...these were for a few miles each and new rims, admittedly. I am planning on some A23s for a bike build thatll start in the coming months and will update everyone if they are so floppy and soft that I cant even stay upright.
06-23-16, 09:55 AM
#30
Senior Member
I have three pairs of Velocity rimmed wheels right now. Two were direct from Velocity, a Blunt set and an Aerohead OC set. Both are years old and have been bombproof. The other set is a PerformanceBike bought A23 Powertap set that has been pretty lousy, frequently losing tension and come out of true. All are 32 spoke; the two Velocity built are double butted, but mybe the PB ones are straight gauge, I dunno.
Any, my takeaway is that some Velocity rim models are better than others, and that build quality matters. I definitely do not believe Velocity rims are junk across the board.
Nowadays, for what I'm interested in, Velocity would not be my first choice were I to do a ground-up wheel build, but then, I'm very unlikely to build rather than buy a "system" wheel, that is, a proprietary brand wheel built by the manufacturer. I think the engineering of something like the American Classic Argent wheels (of which I own a pair) is better than a comparable deep alu rim build around Velocity Ailerons or Pacenti SL-whatevers and off the shelf hubs. I would, though,'seriously consider straight pull DT Swiss hub for such a thing, because then I could use extra wide straight pull aero spokes, which is very appealing, but then I'd have to weigh-in the hassle of a good wheel builder, cost, time, and all that against the features of AC Argents...not at all a slam dunk for the custom build.
That's all probably TMI, but the point is that in the same way not all Velocity rims are junk, good wheels are not magical or accidental, either, and when you pay attention, you can see there are elements of wheel construction and design that can make a difference for certain riders.
I definitely agree with Grolby that, in a general sense, spoke count is not a relevant factor anymore, though it could be in specific cases. For example, for a heavy rider with a hub/rim combo with stiff rim and low bracing angle using 3x cross lacing with CX Rays, going 32 makes a better wheel than 24, but I'd recommend going a 24 spoke Campagnolo G3 laced wheel without hesitation.
So it's complicated...but not inscrutable.
Any, my takeaway is that some Velocity rim models are better than others, and that build quality matters. I definitely do not believe Velocity rims are junk across the board.
Nowadays, for what I'm interested in, Velocity would not be my first choice were I to do a ground-up wheel build, but then, I'm very unlikely to build rather than buy a "system" wheel, that is, a proprietary brand wheel built by the manufacturer. I think the engineering of something like the American Classic Argent wheels (of which I own a pair) is better than a comparable deep alu rim build around Velocity Ailerons or Pacenti SL-whatevers and off the shelf hubs. I would, though,'seriously consider straight pull DT Swiss hub for such a thing, because then I could use extra wide straight pull aero spokes, which is very appealing, but then I'd have to weigh-in the hassle of a good wheel builder, cost, time, and all that against the features of AC Argents...not at all a slam dunk for the custom build.
That's all probably TMI, but the point is that in the same way not all Velocity rims are junk, good wheels are not magical or accidental, either, and when you pay attention, you can see there are elements of wheel construction and design that can make a difference for certain riders.
I definitely agree with Grolby that, in a general sense, spoke count is not a relevant factor anymore, though it could be in specific cases. For example, for a heavy rider with a hub/rim combo with stiff rim and low bracing angle using 3x cross lacing with CX Rays, going 32 makes a better wheel than 24, but I'd recommend going a 24 spoke Campagnolo G3 laced wheel without hesitation.
So it's complicated...but not inscrutable.
Mavic is just ridiculous these days, not because they can't build good rims or wheels, but because they're so far behind on the wide rim and tubeless movements. In a way I do respect them for sticking to their guns and not wanting to just follow trends, but on the other hand it's pretty clear by now that wide road rims aren't a trend, they're the new standard. They are beginning to shift on this. Unfortunately Mavic's reputation really rests on products - the Open Pro, Ksyriums, etc - that are just not on the cutting edge anymore, and they've really taken their actual high end work in some strange directions that really seem more like dead ends.
06-23-16, 10:04 AM
#31
Senior Member
Ive ridden Velocity A23s and Dyads. Neither seemed 'floppy, soft, and cheaply made'. They were straight as an arrow and stayed that way when I rode the bikes.
...these were for a few miles each and new rims, admittedly. I am planning on some A23s for a bike build thatll start in the coming months and will update everyone if they are so floppy and soft that I cant even stay upright.
...these were for a few miles each and new rims, admittedly. I am planning on some A23s for a bike build thatll start in the coming months and will update everyone if they are so floppy and soft that I cant even stay upright.
06-23-16, 12:25 PM
#32
Sunshine
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Im not too sure that what is happening is 'irrational love' as much as just tempered defense of the extreme accusation that Velocity rims are floppy, soft, and cheaply made. These are well tested rims by a well respected company. They may not be good enough for you, but they simply cant possibly all be as bad as you claim.
A23s are basically the same price as Archetypes at ModernBike.
Doesnt seem like the prices are near-premium.
You are very passionate about rims, that much is obvious. It was either the A23 or Archetype, actually. I havent bought the rims yet, so I guess my mind might change, but both seem to overall be excellent rims for what I want to do. The 2 rims were selected based on cost, intended use, and reviews. Oh, and also because I havent had a set of either yet and wanted to try something new.
I am sure this has the potential to drive you to another over the top rant, but if Salsa Delgado rims were still sold, I would get a pair of those. I have some laced to Tiagra hubs with butted spokes that I absolutely love on a touring bike. Im guessing thats another rim thats offensively cheap in quality.
A23s are basically the same price as Archetypes at ModernBike.
Doesnt seem like the prices are near-premium.
You are very passionate about rims, that much is obvious. It was either the A23 or Archetype, actually. I havent bought the rims yet, so I guess my mind might change, but both seem to overall be excellent rims for what I want to do. The 2 rims were selected based on cost, intended use, and reviews. Oh, and also because I havent had a set of either yet and wanted to try something new.
I am sure this has the potential to drive you to another over the top rant, but if Salsa Delgado rims were still sold, I would get a pair of those. I have some laced to Tiagra hubs with butted spokes that I absolutely love on a touring bike. Im guessing thats another rim thats offensively cheap in quality.
06-23-16, 01:23 PM
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Im not too sure that what is happening is 'irrational love' as much as just tempered defense of the extreme accusation that Velocity rims are floppy, soft, and cheaply made. These are well tested rims by a well respected company. They may not be good enough for you, but they simply cant possibly all be as bad as you claim.
A23s are basically the same price as Archetypes at ModernBike.
Doesnt seem like the prices are near-premium.
You are very passionate about rims, that much is obvious. It was either the A23 or Archetype, actually. I havent bought the rims yet, so I guess my mind might change, but both seem to overall be excellent rims for what I want to do. The 2 rims were selected based on cost, intended use, and reviews. Oh, and also because I havent had a set of either yet and wanted to try something new.
I am sure this has the potential to drive you to another over the top rant, but if Salsa Delgado rims were still sold, I would get a pair of those. I have some laced to Tiagra hubs with butted spokes that I absolutely love on a touring bike. Im guessing thats another rim thats offensively cheap in quality.
A23s are basically the same price as Archetypes at ModernBike.
Doesnt seem like the prices are near-premium.
You are very passionate about rims, that much is obvious. It was either the A23 or Archetype, actually. I havent bought the rims yet, so I guess my mind might change, but both seem to overall be excellent rims for what I want to do. The 2 rims were selected based on cost, intended use, and reviews. Oh, and also because I havent had a set of either yet and wanted to try something new.
I am sure this has the potential to drive you to another over the top rant, but if Salsa Delgado rims were still sold, I would get a pair of those. I have some laced to Tiagra hubs with butted spokes that I absolutely love on a touring bike. Im guessing thats another rim thats offensively cheap in quality.
06-23-16, 07:24 PM
#34
Sunshine
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Velomine has a23s with 105 hubs and butted spokes forn $200.
That got me looking into the rim. Not sure if ill build the wheelset or buy from them and rework the wheelset toba good tension and true.
That got me looking into the rim. Not sure if ill build the wheelset or buy from them and rework the wheelset toba good tension and true.
06-24-16, 10:24 AM
#35
Senior Member
Im not too sure that what is happening is 'irrational love' as much as just tempered defense of the extreme accusation that Velocity rims are floppy, soft, and cheaply made. These are well tested rims by a well respected company. They may not be good enough for you, but they simply cant possibly all be as bad as you claim.
A23s are basically the same price as Archetypes at ModernBike.
Doesnt seem like the prices are near-premium.
You are very passionate about rims, that much is obvious. It was either the A23 or Archetype, actually. I havent bought the rims yet, so I guess my mind might change, but both seem to overall be excellent rims for what I want to do. The 2 rims were selected based on cost, intended use, and reviews. Oh, and also because I havent had a set of either yet and wanted to try something new.
I am sure this has the potential to drive you to another over the top rant, but if Salsa Delgado rims were still sold, I would get a pair of those. I have some laced to Tiagra hubs with butted spokes that I absolutely love on a touring bike. Im guessing thats another rim thats offensively cheap in quality.
A23s are basically the same price as Archetypes at ModernBike.
Doesnt seem like the prices are near-premium.
You are very passionate about rims, that much is obvious. It was either the A23 or Archetype, actually. I havent bought the rims yet, so I guess my mind might change, but both seem to overall be excellent rims for what I want to do. The 2 rims were selected based on cost, intended use, and reviews. Oh, and also because I havent had a set of either yet and wanted to try something new.
I am sure this has the potential to drive you to another over the top rant, but if Salsa Delgado rims were still sold, I would get a pair of those. I have some laced to Tiagra hubs with butted spokes that I absolutely love on a touring bike. Im guessing thats another rim thats offensively cheap in quality.
As for the Salsa Delgado, that was a good rim. Appropriately priced and of good quality. I had one built into a dynamo front wheel back in the day and rode the heck out of it. You just don't get it. My beef isn't with rims being cheap per se. It's with rims that are overpriced for the quality they provide and can't be relied on to build into a solid wheel (as several pro wheelbuilders will tell you Velocity rims could not, for a while). You can argue all you like that it's "extreme" to say Velocity rims are cheaply made, but that's just a matter of fact. That was their whole deal back when they were a new company. They saved money by skipping manufacturing steps with less serious consequences for quality (no eyelets, pinned and sleeved joints instead of welding, unmachined sidewalls, limited cleanup of flashing from the drilling process, etc) and passed those savings to the customer. When they moved to the US, the rims were cleaner from the factory, but they weren't straight and even and the prices got notably higher. So now, even with quality back on a more even keel, you're paying premium prices for a bargain rim. That this doesn't bother the notorious skinflints of BF is astonishing. At what you pay for a Velocity rim these days, you might as well go DT Swiss and get a better-finished product for not much more. Or less, in some cases.
06-24-16, 03:38 PM
#37
Banned
Got money to burn and your lap times are consistently off the Podium, 4th at Best?
Deep V rims dont collect Mud on top of them like Box section rims
and in deep Mud they act like Rudder and Keel..
Deep V rims dont collect Mud on top of them like Box section rims
and in deep Mud they act like Rudder and Keel..
06-24-16, 03:45 PM
#38
afraid of whales
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I've built 3 R460 wheels so far, nice kickless joint, wheel comes out round, true and the spoke tensions are all very close. They're a winner, esp at $40.
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