Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Recreational Cyclocross and Gravelbiking This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like :The Dirty Kanza". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-18-06, 10:19 AM   #1
apotnolid
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
ss / fixed crossers! question and pics.

those of you who race ss or fixed, i have a question for you. do you have "track ends," older horizontal dropouts, or vertical dropouts with some sort of tensioning unit (either derailleur type, eccentric hub, or bottom bracket)? i'm interested to see what your pro's and con's are about each set-up. problems changing a wheel with track ends? can't quite dial in chain tension with horizontal? i'm building my own custom cross bike in the next few weeks, so i'm trying to take all this stuff into consideration.

i think i might do track ends with a derailleur tab brazed on. or, i could always add that later.

oh yeah, i'll post pics when it's done. post pics of your SS / FX cross machines! (all 3 of you, right? ha.)
apotnolid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-06, 10:31 AM   #2
dutret
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: GA
Bikes:
Posts: 5,317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If you are planning on chainging gears:
trackends work poorly with all brakes.
horizontal dropouts work well with rim brakes.
sliding dropouts work well with disks.
EBBs work well with all brakes.
dutret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-06, 10:36 AM   #3
Cynikal
Team Beer
 
Cynikal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sacramento CA
Bikes: Too Many
Posts: 5,932
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Another option is to use track ends at the angle of horiz dropouts. Kind of the best of both worlds. I think Rivenell does this on one of thier bikes.
Cynikal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-06, 10:52 AM   #4
comradehoser
B.C. to D.C.
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: between the Popeye's, the liquor store, the funeral home, and the strip club
Bikes: 1992 Miyata Nine 14; 1971 Raleigh Super Course fixie conversion; 2006 Jamis Nova (853 version); 2001 Diamondback Topanga (SS conversion); 1956 Rudge Sports; 1971 Raleigh Competition (processing); 199? Schwinn World Sport (processing)
Posts: 576
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I might as well throw this in, if you didn't know it already:

derailleur-type tensioners will cause you pain if you try and use them with a fixed gear. perfectly fine for a single-speed, of course.

chain tension on horiz. dropouts is just a matter of learning to "walk" the axle nuts back.

If you run track ends, you can get a "dropout" tensioner (a la surly tuggnut) that will allow you to tension your chain easily.

I can't recall why, but I seem to have read somewhere that track ends and derailleurs don't play well together.


Other than that, I guess the only downside to running fixed is having to work to brake on top of everything else--that and it makes cornering a bit more challenging.
comradehoser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-06, 11:28 AM   #5
apotnolid
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutret
If you are planning on chainging gears:
trackends work poorly with all brakes..
?
i have used both cantilevers and centerpulls on several path racers (old track style bikes designed for gravel track / grass track / steeple chase / commuting) with track ends and have never had a problem with set-up or performance of brakes.
apotnolid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-06, 12:11 PM   #6
jeremyb
Senior Member
 
jeremyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sacramento CA
Bikes: Raleigh Grand Prix, Cervelo P3alu
Posts: 555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I run SS with a semi-horizontal dropouts, will be building a SS with track ends in the near future tho. Im able to put 3 different gears with my semi's 39x20, 19, 18t maybe 17 (i havent tried it), but 16 wont work too much slack in the chain. Im not using the chain tensioner anymore, dont need it and it wasnt reliable enough.



http://plusonelap.blogspot.com/2006/...ts-better.html
jeremyb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-06, 12:27 PM   #7
dutret
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: GA
Bikes:
Posts: 5,317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by apotnolid
?
i have used both cantilevers and centerpulls on several path racers (old track style bikes designed for gravel track / grass track / steeple chase / commuting) with track ends and have never had a problem with set-up or performance of brakes.
The problem is changing gears moves the rim in relation to the pad. You can set them up and they will work just as well but if you change the gearing you will probably have to readjust the pads. Horizontal dropouts minimize this because they make they move the wheel tangentially in relation to the pads so there is more fudge room. EBBs eliminate it completely.
dutret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-06, 01:42 PM   #8
42x16
Up to no good
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Portland
Bikes: Steelman EuroCross, Gunnar Streetdog, Independent Fabrications Deluxe
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutret
The problem is changing gears moves the rim in relation to the pad. You can set them up and they will work just as well but if you change the gearing you will probably have to readjust the pads. Horizontal dropouts minimize this because they make they move the wheel tangentially in relation to the pads so there is more fudge room. EBBs eliminate it completely.
The problem with EBB's is that they can be creaky. I have horizontal dropouts on my SS cross bike and have no problems with my canti brakes. I have two chains, one for my 17t cog and one for my 20t cog and switch the chain at the same time as the cog. The wheel ends up in the same place relative to the brakes for both cogs.
42x16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-06, 03:05 PM   #9
apotnolid
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
damn there's a lot of seatpost showing in that jeremy. do you have trouble dis/mounting?
apotnolid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-06, 04:02 PM   #10
jeremyb
Senior Member
 
jeremyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sacramento CA
Bikes: Raleigh Grand Prix, Cervelo P3alu
Posts: 555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by apotnolid
damn there's a lot of seatpost showing in that jeremy. do you have trouble dis/mounting?

Nah, no problems, it gives me more standover clearance which is nice.
jeremyb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-06, 06:06 PM   #11
geekpunk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 96
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyb
I run SS with a semi-horizontal dropouts, will be building a SS with track ends in the near future tho. Im able to put 3 different gears with my semi's 39x20, 19, 18t maybe 17 (i havent tried it),
Same chain?
geekpunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-06, 05:59 PM   #12
xccx
+++++++++++++++
 
xccx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
Bikes: 2 Felt F1X's, Surly Steamroller Fixed / Free, 2007 IF Crown Jewel, 2007 IF Planet X Singlespeed
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
here's my ss crosser...

yes, a steamroller. track-ends and 2 brakes. believe it or not, i have lots of mud clearance because of the long reach calipers. changing a wheel is easy, but of course you gotta have wrenches in the pit. no problems with chain tension or brakes...i have a flip-flop hub with 39:17 fixed and 39:17 free.

check it:

gearing: 39:17
frame/fork: surly steamroller
cranks: vintage shimano R600 with salsa 39T ring
pedals: crank bros. candies
wheels: mavic cxp 22 front and rear with surly flip-flob hub
post: ritchey
salle: selle flite gel
headset: king, pewter (going to get rid of those spacers as soon as i get proper fit figured out!)
bars: ritchey classic bend
stem: ritchey
levers: shimano r600
brakes: tektro long-reach calipers
Attached Images
File Type: jpg rig_low.jpg (37.3 KB, 182 views)
xccx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-06, 10:56 PM   #13
jmgorman
antiquarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: favorite color- where you at
Bikes: ?? Volkscycle converted 53/20
Posts: 330
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
^^^
hotness
jmgorman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-06, 04:02 AM   #14
Walleye
member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 137
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
^^what he said^^
Walleye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-06, 06:22 AM   #15
auk
Coasting makes you grumpy
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Indiana
Bikes: Specialized Stumpjumper M2Comp; Habanero Ti-Team; Slingshot Road; 1962 converted Raliegh fixer aka: The Beast
Posts: 1,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Are you speaking from experience or just tossing the info out there? Typically, the gear changes are subtle and well within the limits of the brake pad adjustments. I ran five cx races last year either fixed or ss, all have different gearing and I never needed to move the brake once. Braking remained perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dutret
The problem is changing gears moves the rim in relation to the pad. You can set them up and they will work just as well but if you change the gearing you will probably have to readjust the pads. Horizontal dropouts minimize this because they make they move the wheel tangentially in relation to the pads so there is more fudge room. EBBs eliminate it completely.
auk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-06, 06:24 AM   #16
auk
Coasting makes you grumpy
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Indiana
Bikes: Specialized Stumpjumper M2Comp; Habanero Ti-Team; Slingshot Road; 1962 converted Raliegh fixer aka: The Beast
Posts: 1,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
xccx,

Great looking bike.
auk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-06, 06:30 AM   #17
dutret
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: GA
Bikes:
Posts: 5,317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by auk
Are you speaking from experience or just tossing the info out there? Typically, the gear changes are subtle and well within the limits of the brake pad adjustments. I ran five cx races last year either fixed or ss, all have different gearing and I never needed to move the brake once. Braking remained perfect.
experience. 1 tooth moves the pad at least partly off the rim 2 teeth and it's way off.
dutret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-06, 07:04 AM   #18
xccx
+++++++++++++++
 
xccx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
Bikes: 2 Felt F1X's, Surly Steamroller Fixed / Free, 2007 IF Crown Jewel, 2007 IF Planet X Singlespeed
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutret
experience. 1 tooth moves the pad at least partly off the rim 2 teeth and it's way off.
this is indeed true.
xccx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-06, 07:24 AM   #19
dutret
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: GA
Bikes:
Posts: 5,317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Do you have track ends or horizontal dropouts? I really don't understand why they make bikes with rear brakes and truly horizontal track ends.
dutret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-06, 08:12 PM   #20
apotnolid
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutret
I really don't understand why they make bikes with rear brakes and truly horizontal track ends.
back in the 1930s and 40s, and even up until the late 50s, the bike the average rider rode to the race was the bike that they raced on. and mostly it was fixed, with a smaller ratio for the ride to/from the race and a larger for the event itself, whether a time trial/track race/whatever.

and i don't know if you've (or anyone else reading this, for that matter) ever broken a chain while riding on a fixed gear, or not secured the wheel properly, or something with the rear wheel goes awry but with track ends the wheel hits the ends and doesn't get sucked underneath you, not so with horizontal dropouts. if you don't get thrown off because of the momentum change, you are still on two wheels and can brake accordingly. if you only have front brakes, are going reasonably fast, and have NO CHAIN (i.e. no ability to balance out the braking force between the back wheel with your legs in addition to the front brake) you will absolutely go up and over.

so, for riding through the towns to get to the races, brakes, front and rear, with track ends, just in case.
apotnolid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-06, 06:21 PM   #21
jeremyb
Senior Member
 
jeremyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sacramento CA
Bikes: Raleigh Grand Prix, Cervelo P3alu
Posts: 555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekpunk
Same chain?
yeah same chain
jeremyb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-06, 09:10 AM   #22
dutret
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: GA
Bikes:
Posts: 5,317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by apotnolid
back in the 1930s and 40s, and even up until the late 50s, the bike the average rider rode to the race was the bike that they raced on. and mostly it was fixed, with a smaller ratio for the ride to/from the race and a larger for the event itself, whether a time trial/track race/whatever.

and i don't know if you've (or anyone else reading this, for that matter) ever broken a chain while riding on a fixed gear, or not secured the wheel properly, or something with the rear wheel goes awry but with track ends the wheel hits the ends and doesn't get sucked underneath you, not so with horizontal dropouts. if you don't get thrown off because of the momentum change, you are still on two wheels and can brake accordingly. if you only have front brakes, are going reasonably fast, and have NO CHAIN (i.e. no ability to balance out the braking force between the back wheel with your legs in addition to the front brake) you will absolutely go up and over.

so, for riding through the towns to get to the races, brakes, front and rear, with track ends, just in case.

late reply but as far as I can tell this is completely nonsense.

1. If you are using brakes and two different ratios track ends aren't good(at least truly horizontal ones).
2. What they did over a half century ago shouldn't matter today(you don't see track ends on many geared bikes).
3. Breaking a chain would in no way be better with track ends.
4. You will not go "up and over" with only a front brake. during hard braking your front bake is doing almost all the work anyway.
5. You could pull a wheel out with horizontal dropouts on a geared bike too but you don't see it happen. This doesn't happen often because with either set up the drive side usually gets pulled forward and jams the tire against the non-driveside stay.
dutret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-06, 08:17 PM   #23
apotnolid
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutret
late reply but as far as I can tell this is completely nonsense.

1. If you are using brakes and two different ratios track ends aren't good(at least truly horizontal ones).
2. What they did over a half century ago shouldn't matter today(you don't see track ends on many geared bikes).
3. Breaking a chain would in no way be better with track ends.
4. You will not go "up and over" with only a front brake. during hard braking your front bake is doing almost all the work anyway.
5. You could pull a wheel out with horizontal dropouts on a geared bike too but you don't see it happen. This doesn't happen often because with either set up the drive side usually gets pulled forward and jams the tire against the non-driveside stay.
1- i went out today and flipped my flip flop on an old 1950s grass track (16 tooth fixed 18 tooth freewheel), truly horizontal track ends, that has front and rear centerpull calipers. when the chainline was tight enough on each side i did not have to adjust the brake shoe position or toe in at all for the brake work efficiently on a pedal around the block.
2- cycling has a great sense of a staid, traditional course, especially when it comes to componentry and frame design. just about everything that is going on now (including the new campy BB/crank combos, chris king "ring-drive" hubs, crazy frame angles/sloped.bent tubes/etc.) has already been done before. the fabrication and materials are just getting more and more precise. to get away from the typical 1930s road frame design, you have to consider something like recumbents/hpv's, and even those were around in the 50s. the point is that bikes today are still the same basic things as bikes of 50 or 60 years ago. those bikes still matter. they had track ends with brakes then, and they worked, so now builders today still make bikes with track ends and brakes. do they need to? maybe not, but people like that idea. and also, who's to say that track ends are only to meant for riding fixed? if you have a ss freewheel, or a sturmey archer, or something, you'll want that rear brake. better to have the provision on the frame.
3- i heard a lengthy discussion from three older ex-pro track riders about this idea. summary: with track ends that are horizontal, you can "coast" (if the chain doesn't whip into the spokes) and not fear the wrath of any bumps/cracks/rocks whatever in the road for as long as you want. with horizontal drops a big enough bump (or even the initial slack of not having the chain pulling the cog) can cause the axle to jump "up" in the drops and throw off any chance you had at sailing away. this, i admit, has never happened to me. but thinking about it, i can believe it, it's not too ridiculous. sort of a small issue, anyway.
4-simply not true. i don't care how long anybody has been riding a fixed, or any bike for that matter, using a front brake only will bail you over- even with properly adjusted brakes and all. it could be a slight descent, it could be an impact, or your riding position just prior to braking, or whatever.
5- i am going to try and put a clip that i have on a VHS tape online. it's a race in derby (if i recall correctly) in the early 80s of a track rider's wheel visibly jumping backwards in the drops at his first point of really intense acceleration. apparently the nuts weren't tight enough, i forget exactly what. but anyway, the wheel stays centered enough for him to finish the race, which he does. it happens.
apotnolid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-06, 09:26 PM   #24
dutret
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: GA
Bikes:
Posts: 5,317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
1. good for you. The fact remains that with most frames you cannot change gears(maybe one tooth) and keep the pads aligned if the angle of axle movement is not parallel to the rim at the brake pads. Modern(larger) pads increase issues with this. Maybe you just have a higher tolerance for maladjusted pads then I do.

2. That's absurd geared bikes went from track ends to horizontal dropouts to semihorizontal to vertical. There is absolutely no reason ss bikes can't too.

3. I don;t quite understand what you are saying.

4. You are wrong. No matter what bike you are riding on most surfaces most experienced riders do almost all the braking with the front when they want to stop fast. They don't when in poor traction situations but that is because the front wheel will slip long before you "bail over." For sustained braking it's best to use both to keep everything cool. (this doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand anyway)

5. The axle jumped back???? That seems unlikely. wheel slipping horizontal and vertical dropouts is not uncommon as I said. Usually the drive side moves forward. It sucks but if it is placed properly in the dropout it will hit the stay before catastophe occurs. That is why people were able to safely ride horizontal dropouts on geared bikes for decades.
dutret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-06, 10:23 PM   #25
apotnolid
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
5.- the guy who gave me the tape said something like this, but i'm not really sure where he got the info, it could just be his speculation: "i'm pretty sure what happened is that during a wheelset swap/installation the rear wheel might have been hand-tightened to hold it in place and then they forgot to finish up the job. the nuts weren't tight enough, and the chain was a little too slack, and the rider didn't notice" or something. during the first few cruise laps it was fine enough. the sprint started, and right then the rear wheel just floats back (you can definitely notice it on camera) but stays in the drops b/c of the chain. the rider looks back at his wheel, and then just keeps riding. i also should've said "floats," not "jumps" because jump is kind of too dramatic i think.
---
anyway, i see what you mean with 2. part of it is probably that when people want a dedicated single speed bike, for whatever reason, they like the "appeal" (aesthetic, mental, whatever) of track ends. and that's their choice.

two things that i didn't think about until now: a.) brake failure. another kind of freak thing, but having that back brake provision is nice. b.) loaded touring on a fixed/path bike. i've done it a few times, and having that rear brake as well as the front makes a world of difference.

all in all, i understand what you're saying, and flat-out agree with some of it. but at the same time, i can't think of a good enough reason to NOT make a bike with track ends and rear brake provisions. out of the dozen or so bikes, vintage and non-vintage (sounding like a champagne forum now), i've had with track ends- that weren't dedicated track irons- i wouldn't want to swap the drops on one of them for something other than the track ends they currently have.

good discussion so far for sure; made me really think about bikes again!
apotnolid is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:05 PM.