Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Recreational Cyclocross and Gravelbiking This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like :The Dirty Kanza". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-22-08, 10:24 AM   #1
xthugmurderx
poser/hipster/whatever
Thread Starter
 
xthugmurderx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: milwaukee, philly, and back, minneapolis in july
Bikes: d/a allez -trek t1
Posts: 994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Fork shudder. Why?

Any ideas as to why a fork shudders? what part of the fork is to blame? The legs? Are some too thin? Which forks shudder?

Easton EC90X. Shudder. Big time.
Alan Cross Fork. Carbon legs/steerer. Alloy crown. No shudder. Why? Is it due to the extra 100g? If so, it's totally worth it.

I just want to avoid it. Trying to see what I can do.
xthugmurderx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-08, 02:13 AM   #2
fogrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: fogtown...san francisco
Bikes: Ron Cooper, Time VXSR, rock lobster, rock lobster, serotta, ritchey, kestrel, paramount
Posts: 2,276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
there are many reasons why a fork shudders..the fork, the brakes, the brake pads, the cable...take your pick. someone said that when they switched to v brakes, the shudder was gone. the amount of grab of the pads and the power of the brakes.
fogrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-08, 08:37 AM   #3
shapelike
Don't smoke, Mike.
 
shapelike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
Bikes: Devinci Tosca, IRO Rob Roy
Posts: 3,295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by xthugmurderx View Post
Any ideas as to why a fork shudders? what part of the fork is to blame? The legs? Are some too thin? Which forks shudder?

Easton EC90X. Shudder. Big time.
Alan Cross Fork. Carbon legs/steerer. Alloy crown. No shudder. Why? Is it due to the extra 100g? If so, it's totally worth it.

I just want to avoid it. Trying to see what I can do.
Well what's different?

Same brakes on both bikes? Same brake pads? Same style of housing stop on the steerer tube? Are both the bikes in the same condition (is one on filthy, gummed up wheels/pads while the other has been gone over with emory paper and methyl hydrate on the rims and pads)?
shapelike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-08, 12:33 PM   #4
MIN 
big ring
 
MIN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: philadelphia
Bikes:
Posts: 5,838
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
When switched to different rotors on my disc brake equipped bike, shuddering went away. Sometimes the micro-vibrations caused by braking can sync with the natural resonant frequency of the wheel or fork and cause shuddering.

Solution: toe your brakes more or try different pads.
MIN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-08, 04:55 AM   #5
dragonmg
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by xthugmurderx View Post
Any ideas as to why a fork shudders? what part of the fork is to blame? The legs? Are some too thin? Which forks shudder?

Easton EC90X. Shudder. Big time.
Alan Cross Fork. Carbon legs/steerer. Alloy crown. No shudder. Why? Is it due to the extra 100g? If so, it's totally worth it.

I just want to avoid it. Trying to see what I can do.
There was a really good explanation posited on this a few months back, but I haven't been able to find it for you. I'll try and restate it here, but I could be off a little. To a certain degree, all fork blades flex back and forth when going over uneven terrain - be it road bikes or cross bikes. The theory (that I'm buying into until I hear a better one) on shutter is that on cyclocross forks with cantilever brakes, the flexing back of the fork blades actually increases the distance between the front brake housing stop and the brake cable fixing bolt on the brake, causing the brake to tighten down harder as the fork flexes back. As the brake tightens, the fork returns forward quickly. This is repeated during hard braking and you have your shutter.

Shutter seems to be more prevalent in the lighterweight cross forks paired with strong cantilever brakes. The stronger the braking force and the less stiff the fork, the greater the shutter. Toeing in your canti pads effectually weakens the initial stopping force of your brakes, and can reduce the shutter. You still will get it when you squeeze down hard on the brakes though. In my experience, brake shutter isn't that big a deal in cross races, but if you use your cross bike for road training, it can be downright scary on fast and twisty road descents.

So back to the source, this theory has pinpointed the relationship between the upper cable stop and the brake fixing bolt as the problem. If this theory were to hold true, then brakes that have the housing run straight into the brake arm, such as linear pull and disc brakes, would not be subject to the same type of shutter. I haven't personally witnessed any major shutter with these other two brakes, but if other folks have, then it might be back to the drawing board with shutter theory.
dragonmg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-08, 06:21 AM   #6
isotopesope
shoot up or shut up.
 
isotopesope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: colorado springs, co
Bikes: yes please.
Posts: 1,961
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
a fork mounted cable hanger could fix the theory dragonmg explained... if your fork is drilled for one that is. v brakes can still shudder as well, if not set up properly. especially those dumb shimano parallel push ones, using cartridge pads.

it's probably your brake setup though. it seems a light weight fork just exacerbates any brake setup issues. on my old cross frame with a kinesis aluminum fork, i had shuddering really bad until i got my dumb old avid 6's set just right... i had to toe them in rather extremely... like 3 mm. i then installed a wcs fork, which shuddered like crazy too. non cartridge black koolstops sort of helped, but no matter what setup black magic i used, my brakes either shuddered hard initially, or somewhat during hard braking, or had no power, or squealed. sanding the pads and rims helped as well. i had to pick two problems ultimately. i settled on slight shuddering under hard braking and low overall power. i could not completely get rid it of with that fork... until i switched to xt canti's, which magically removed all shuddering and increased overall brake performance significantly.

now that the xt's are on my crosswind with a zornyc fork, they still work great. that fork is beefcake! i've known a few people to get their avid's to work fine. i had my wife's old soma braking fine with avid 4's... but i also know folks that got rid of all of their brake issues when they got rid of their avid's.
isotopesope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-08, 11:19 AM   #7
xthugmurderx
poser/hipster/whatever
Thread Starter
 
xthugmurderx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: milwaukee, philly, and back, minneapolis in july
Bikes: d/a allez -trek t1
Posts: 994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
interesting. the only difference was the fork. same brakes, and same pads. actually, both forks also had the cane creek brakes on them, which didn't shudder so bad, but the didn't stop. kool stop pads and some red extreme condition pads (forget brand. not koolstop). Using the shimano R550's currently.

I dunno. It isn't an issue in racing, but on the road. i commute on my cross bike, and intersections aren't much fun. Not a HUGE deal, but i just thought I'd see if anyone knew anything.

the question was more in regards to a project i'm working on. I'm importing my own frames and forks, and when it came time to make up a cross fork, I just wanted to make it as shudder free as possible. It seems to me that a grabby brake/pad combined with a lightweight fork blade would make shudder happen. just the act of the brake grabbing the rim, and the fork blades flexing with the force. That was my theory. Dunno if it's legit.
xthugmurderx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-08, 12:00 PM   #8
MrPolak
Just ride it.
 
MrPolak's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I thought shudder applied only to Cantis since the brakes' effective force is dependent on the tension of a very long cable. The tension of this cable is temporarily lessened when the fork flexes which allows the fork to snap back, which increases the tension and so on. An oscillation sets in and if the frequency of this oscillation is low enough it will be perceived as shudder. This can be exacerbated as the pads move over an uneven or dirty braking surface.

Mine shuddered until I cleaned the pads and wheels - I have a carbon fork with Shimano Canti brakes.

It seems that if excessive fork flexing is the culprit then one of these should fix it:



Last edited by MrPolak; 02-26-08 at 12:15 PM.
MrPolak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-08, 02:56 PM   #9
dragonmg
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by isotopesope View Post
my dumb old avid 6's set just right...
Apologies for going OT, but does anybody else think it's about time Avid went and revamped the Shorty brakes already after like eight years using the same dumb design? I mean they function okay and all, but is there a worse straddle cable quick release in the entire bike industry?
dragonmg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-08, 12:15 AM   #10
Elmar Schrauth
crosser
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: cochem-germany
Bikes: superlight scandium-crossbike,excel carbon cyclo-cross,principia rex cc , titanium cyclo-crossert
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
mini-v brakes do never shutter
Elmar Schrauth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-08, 07:15 AM   #11
MrPolak
Just ride it.
 
MrPolak's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmar Schrauth View Post
mini-v brakes do never shutter
And I'm planning to upgrade to mini-v brakes! Actually I'd like to go with disc brakes bu there's a small issue of finding 700c disc wheel that are Campagnolo-compatible.
MrPolak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-08, 07:48 AM   #12
shapelike
Don't smoke, Mike.
 
shapelike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
Bikes: Devinci Tosca, IRO Rob Roy
Posts: 3,295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPolak View Post
And I'm planning to upgrade to mini-v brakes! Actually I'd like to go with disc brakes bu there's a small issue of finding 700c disc wheel that are Campagnolo-compatible.
Jtek shiftmate, American Classic cassette are two options that come to mind as a possible solution.

How's the braking power with mini-v brakes though?
shapelike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-08, 06:56 PM   #13
seat_boy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Dublin, OH
Bikes: Serial bike flipper
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I tried a mini V on my Surly forked Gunnar, and they stopped OK without shudder (unlike my Avid Shorties). However, I was using normal Shimano brake levers, and I had to set the mini Vs approximately a nanometer from the rim in order to get reasonable lever travel. That close, they wouldn't open enough to remove my 28mm tire. I'm going to try something else, either a new cantilever or a fork mounted cable stop.

Eric
seat_boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-08, 06:59 PM   #14
isotopesope
shoot up or shut up.
 
isotopesope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: colorado springs, co
Bikes: yes please.
Posts: 1,961
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
I tried a mini V on my Surly forked Gunnar, and they stopped OK without shudder (unlike my Avid Shorties). However, I was using normal Shimano brake levers, and I had to set the mini Vs approximately a nanometer from the rim in order to get reasonable lever travel. That close, they wouldn't open enough to remove my 28mm tire. I'm going to try something else, either a new cantilever or a fork mounted cable stop.

Eric
what length arms were your mini v's? 80 or 85 mm?
isotopesope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-08, 01:08 PM   #15
cachehiker
Soma Lover
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Logan, UT
Bikes: one bike for every day of the week
Posts: 765
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by xthugmurderx View Post
the question was more in regards to a project i'm working on. I'm importing my own frames and forks, and when it came time to make up a cross fork, I just wanted to make it as shudder free as possible. It seems to me that a grabby brake/pad combined with a lightweight fork blade would make shudder happen. just the act of the brake grabbing the rim, and the fork blades flexing with the force. That was my theory. Dunno if it's legit.
I actually had to go to a grabbier brake pad to get my Soma Double Cross to behave itself. The brakes woke the dead with their squealing and as I went to softer and softer pads (now using Aztecs) the squeal moderated itself into a slight shudder at a lower resonant frequency. Lengthening the straddle cable about 6-8mm lessened the shudder to a point which is admittedly less than perfect but less than obnoxious as well. With a short, almost straight across straddle cable the magnification of the braking force by the fork flex is magnified greatly.

I've also had a terrible time with the headset (a cheapie Aheadset the LBS just happened to have in stock) coming loose. When it's a bit loose, the fork flexes a bit more and the shudder gets noticeably worse. The last time I tightened it was the last time I'm going to tighten it. I'm planning on replacing the headset and Soma fork with a Chris King and straight blade IRD. We'll see how it goes. I'd prefer to go back to a slightly harder compound as this also serves as a 2000+ mile/year commuter and resetting the toe-in every month is a PITA.

BTW, I didn't do it to fix brake squeal but when I went to Thinline Pads to fit beefier tires on my Jamis Aurora it also got rid of the relatively mild brake squeal it had. I guess a millimeter less arm trying to "twist" the brake was enough.
cachehiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-08, 09:48 PM   #16
Elmar Schrauth
crosser
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: cochem-germany
Bikes: superlight scandium-crossbike,excel carbon cyclo-cross,principia rex cc , titanium cyclo-crossert
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
best length is 85 mm
Elmar Schrauth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-08, 10:11 AM   #17
noisebeam
Al
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Posts: 14,111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonmg View Post
TIn my experience, brake shutter isn't that big a deal in cross races, but if you use your cross bike for road training, it can be downright scary on fast and twisty road descents.
Yep. I don't race CX, but do ride on trails with it and there I don't even notice the shudder.

On the road however it feels unsafe to the point that I am uncomfortable on such roads you describe.

The bike I have problem with is a Lemond Poprad w/canti brakes. I started with the aluminum fork and went thru many fine tunings with LBS, all the tricks of pad angle adjustment, pad material, etc. tried, but with no good results. Lemond, in response to my complaint that the shudder was a safety issue, sent me a new carbon fork. That helped a bit, but the shudder is still there and still too dangerous for fast decents. It is quite easy to get the front wheel to start skipping on pavement on decents due to shudder. That is quite disconcerting.

It is unfortunate. I love this bike and while I can still use it on trails, no longer use it on the road. My other bike is a fixed gear and I ride it 99% of the time now - I want to use the Lemond for routes that are not good for the fixed (i.e. hilly routes with steep descents) but that is unsafe on the Poprad.

So I either need to convert to a road fork and different brakes or buy a road bike.

Al
noisebeam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-08, 12:17 PM   #18
comradehoser
B.C. to D.C.
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: between the Popeye's, the liquor store, the funeral home, and the strip club
Bikes: 1992 Miyata Nine 14; 1971 Raleigh Super Course fixie conversion; 2006 Jamis Nova (853 version); 2001 Diamondback Topanga (SS conversion); 1956 Rudge Sports; 1971 Raleigh Competition (processing); 199? Schwinn World Sport (processing)
Posts: 576
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
noisebeam--try subbing in the tektro cr720 as a front brake.

I had some nasty squeal and shudder with my Avid Shorty 4s and koolstop pads. No longer, and I'm running the stock tektro pads as well.

they are fairly cheap as an experiment to do.
comradehoser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-08, 12:32 PM   #19
noisebeam
Al
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Posts: 14,111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by comradehoser View Post
noisebeam--try subbing in the tektro cr720 as a front brake.

I had some nasty squeal and shudder with my Avid Shorty 4s and koolstop pads. No longer, and I'm running the stock tektro pads as well.

they are fairly cheap as an experiment to do.
Thanks. Yeah, I still have the Avid Short 4s with salmon koolstop pads.

Al
noisebeam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-08, 02:52 PM   #20
sfcrossrider
Senior Member
 
sfcrossrider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Francisco
Bikes: Steelman eurocross, Surly CrossCheck, IRO Rob Roy...
Posts: 2,760
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Fork shutter can lead to fork breaking. Be careful.
sfcrossrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-08, 01:09 AM   #21
Elmar Schrauth
crosser
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: cochem-germany
Bikes: superlight scandium-crossbike,excel carbon cyclo-cross,principia rex cc , titanium cyclo-crossert
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfcrossrider View Post
Fork shutter can lead to fork breaking. Be careful.
yes ,thats my opinion ,too.
Elmar Schrauth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-08, 01:07 PM   #22
bc sparks
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I ride a Ridley Super Cross with the 4ZA Python fork, one of the lightest forks, and 4ZA Canit brakes, and I have no issues with shuddering. The LBS owner filed the bosses so the brakes fit perfectly, and told me that would prevent any shuddering. Does the brake fit to the fork make the difference? It would explain why the same brake on a different fork might not cause shuddering.
bc sparks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-08, 01:22 PM   #23
darkmother
Get the stick.
 
darkmother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Toronto, ON
Bikes: 12 Y.O. Litespeed MTB, IRO Jamie Roy fixie, Custom Habanero Ti 'Cross, No name SS MTB, Old school lugged steel track bike (soon)
Posts: 1,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I had the the same problem with my CX bike a couple years ago. Try a fork mounted cable stop for canti brakes. It's cheap, and it works. Mini V's, or full sized V brakes with a travel agent also work. Sometimes oldschool MTB cantilevers with the big fat "brake pad on a stick" design also help (as opposed to the newer ball and socket thin V-brake style pads.

Good luck,
Jeremy
darkmother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-08, 03:49 PM   #24
M_S
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 3,693
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've gotten the shorty 4s on my cross bike to stop shuddering almost entirely by toeingthe brake pads. When they wear out (they're close) I'll get some Kool Stops and hopefuly that'll do away with shuder completely.

Yeah, shudder is worse on the road, but honestly I'm used to it. Maybe it's that it's been a couple years since owning a bike with calipers? Cantis require a somewhat different technique, but I do lots of long mountain descents without issue.

For what it's worth my cross bike has the stock K2 carbon fork which seems pretty beefy but it hardly the most overbuilt thing out there either.

I also have to strongly second the comment about headset loosness. I flipped my stem once and didn't tighten things down enough. The first time I braked after going out it felt like the fork was going to shake right off the bike. I don't mean to suggest that all the people having shudder isues don't know how to tighten a headset (most of you have probably been working on bikes longer than I've been alive) but I do wonder if it might be exacerbating the problem for lots of folks.
M_S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-08, 01:10 AM   #25
Jasonian
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: PORTLAND OREGON
Bikes: Cannondale: '08 Super Six III, '04 Bad Boy, and '03 MTB tandem; Specialized: '05 Stumpjumper FSR Expert, and '08 TriCross Expert; Electra cruiser
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Switch from mini V's to Cantis = SHUDDER!

To validate DrangonMG, (who explains the length of cable from the housing to the brake itself on canit's causes forks to shudder)... it's must be true! I had NO shudder whatsoever on a Specialized Tricross w/full carbon fork and stock Tektro mini V's, when I decided to install new cantis because the mini V's had such minimal clearance to the rim, I couldn't remove the wheels w/o deflating tires, or loosening cable anchor bolts. Any minor WoW in the rim resulted in brake scrub when pedaling hard, so I decided to switch 'em out this year. The moment I installed Cane Creek SX5 Canti's., VIOLENT brake shudder erupted! WTF, I asked myself?! I got brand new brakes w/Koolstop pads (grey), toed in excessively , clean and true rims. I was perplexed, as I thought it was my STIFF looking fork legs that defeated fork shudder so commonly found on cyclocross bikes. NOT SO! DragonMG's explanation makes sense. The excess of cable between the housing and the brake itself is the issue.

I resisted trying Travel Agent's as one cable fraying and breaking is too much for me (besides the look goofy and seem like they'd add friction). I will try the fork mounted cable housing stop if I can get away with it (2cm minimum req between straddle cable and cable stops), or cave and go back to the mini-V's with an adapter like the Travel Agent.

My advice as a mechanic, salesperson and racer to any of you experiencing fork shudder: DON'T PUT UP WITH IT. It is NOT SAFE and NOT ACCEPTABLE no matter what some of these fools think. Sooner or later, you'll eat SH$T because your stupid set-up failed you, causing you to loose traction. Manufacturers MUST here from riders that the designs are NOT WORKING to evoke change.

(and no rim-to-brake clearance OR cable adjustment barrels, unfortunately)
Jasonian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:57 PM.