Cyclocross Ride Quality....
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Cyclocross Ride Quality....
I am a long time roadbike guy who would appreciate some advice for another bike.
For those that have both cyclocross and roadbikes, is there much difference in ride quality between the two when riding paved roads which aren't the best? I am considering a CX bike to improve the ride quality over some of the rough paved roads I ride as even my nice CF roadbike with 23mm tires beats me up more than I like. I believe a CX bike would be the best combination of ride quality and speed. Is this so?
What tire width do you recommend on your CX bikes which would make a difference in ride quality?
Is 32mm the sweet spot for comfort versus speed?
Thanks in advance.
For those that have both cyclocross and roadbikes, is there much difference in ride quality between the two when riding paved roads which aren't the best? I am considering a CX bike to improve the ride quality over some of the rough paved roads I ride as even my nice CF roadbike with 23mm tires beats me up more than I like. I believe a CX bike would be the best combination of ride quality and speed. Is this so?
What tire width do you recommend on your CX bikes which would make a difference in ride quality?
Is 32mm the sweet spot for comfort versus speed?
Thanks in advance.
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I am assuming that you have already tried the max. tire size you road bike will allow and reduced your pressue accordingly?
For my two bikes (road vs cx), I would say that when it comes to comfort the frame is not as critical as tire size/pressure. 23c at 110psi seems to be too harsh for my tastes on both my aluminum TCR and my Scandium CX bike. Specialized s-works all conditions 25c at 90 psi, however, are a dream to ride on either bike. The difference is incredible on both frames with neither frame really coming across as clearly more comfortable. (BTW, I weigh about 160-170 depending on time of year).
I cannot really make sense of the science regarding rolling resistance and tire size/psi. All I can say is that I have noticed absolutely no increase in rolling resistance since going to the 25c and the increase in comfort is amazing. I will probably never go back to 23c.
I know you are an experience cyclicst, but I might also suggest considerations to seat selection. I am a huge Selle Italia fan but I am running Prolink Gel Flow Lites on my road bike and a regular flight gel flow on my cx bike. The prolinks, with their elastomer bumpers, are far more comfortable; for my butt anyway. I am considering stocking up on them.
For my two bikes (road vs cx), I would say that when it comes to comfort the frame is not as critical as tire size/pressure. 23c at 110psi seems to be too harsh for my tastes on both my aluminum TCR and my Scandium CX bike. Specialized s-works all conditions 25c at 90 psi, however, are a dream to ride on either bike. The difference is incredible on both frames with neither frame really coming across as clearly more comfortable. (BTW, I weigh about 160-170 depending on time of year).
I cannot really make sense of the science regarding rolling resistance and tire size/psi. All I can say is that I have noticed absolutely no increase in rolling resistance since going to the 25c and the increase in comfort is amazing. I will probably never go back to 23c.
I know you are an experience cyclicst, but I might also suggest considerations to seat selection. I am a huge Selle Italia fan but I am running Prolink Gel Flow Lites on my road bike and a regular flight gel flow on my cx bike. The prolinks, with their elastomer bumpers, are far more comfortable; for my butt anyway. I am considering stocking up on them.
Last edited by Sawtooth; 07-26-09 at 09:40 AM.
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Thank yoiu Sawtooth. I am 190#. I am quite surprised you notice a large difference in ride quality between 23 and 25 mm. Perhaps implicitly you answer my question as a 28mm tire on a CX bike would likely be that much more comfortable. Yes I do run my pressures high...about 117psi or so. Lower than that on 23's at my weight I will pinch flat. Much can be written about rolling resistance, tire pressure and tire width and has. I was looking more for anecdotal accounts of what size many CX riders choose as it always comes down to comfort versus speed or most of the time.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
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While tire size can change even the harshest riding road bike into a beach cruiser, geometry is going to make a huge difference also.
Most cross bikes are more relaxed in their geometry and for most people, this equals more comfort. While frame material doesn't really matter much, how they are built does. I've had several Trek aluminum framed bikes and they rode very harshly. I was very hesitant to buy another aluminum bike, but was interested in a cross bike. I ended up getting a Specialized Tricross Comp and fell in love with this bike the first ride. Ridden it on several century+ rides and have yet to ride another bike that was more comfortable. I do have a carbon Specialized Roubaix that is just as comfortable but is faster and more fun to ride than the cross bike.
In your situation, I'd maybe switch to 25's running at say 100 PSI instead of switching to a cross bike. If I was looking for a single bike that I could also take on dirt roads and trails, I'd get a cross bike. I always pick my Roubaix when going out on a road only ride though. Big difference in enjoying the ride on this bike over the cross bike.
Most cross bikes are more relaxed in their geometry and for most people, this equals more comfort. While frame material doesn't really matter much, how they are built does. I've had several Trek aluminum framed bikes and they rode very harshly. I was very hesitant to buy another aluminum bike, but was interested in a cross bike. I ended up getting a Specialized Tricross Comp and fell in love with this bike the first ride. Ridden it on several century+ rides and have yet to ride another bike that was more comfortable. I do have a carbon Specialized Roubaix that is just as comfortable but is faster and more fun to ride than the cross bike.
In your situation, I'd maybe switch to 25's running at say 100 PSI instead of switching to a cross bike. If I was looking for a single bike that I could also take on dirt roads and trails, I'd get a cross bike. I always pick my Roubaix when going out on a road only ride though. Big difference in enjoying the ride on this bike over the cross bike.
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Thank yoiu Sawtooth. I am 190#. I am quite surprised you notice a large difference in ride quality between 23 and 25 mm. Perhaps implicitly you answer my question as a 28mm tire on a CX bike would likely be that much more comfortable. Yes I do run my pressures high...about 117psi or so. Lower than that on 23's at my weight I will pinch flat. Much can be written about rolling resistance, tire pressure and tire width and has. I was looking more for anecdotal accounts of what size many CX riders choose as it always comes down to comfort versus speed or most of the time.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
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Anyway, try Conti Sports Contacts in a suitable width.
Last edited by meanwhile; 07-26-09 at 12:49 PM.
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- Really narrow tyres have a decent aero advantage at higher speeds, and this matters more than rolling resistance in the TDF or time trials
- But narrow is BAD for rolling resistance - because RR isn't friction by hysteresis energy; otoh wide is good
- However tyre compound matters even more, and until recently it was hard to find wider tyres with fast compound
- Thinner tyre walls also lower RR, so do latex tubes
- Wider is also better fro braking and turning
- Higher pressure reduces RR
- As roads get worse and/or rider weight get higher, a tyre goes out of its parameters for optimum behaviour and HE and RR increase. A wider tyre that is still in its comfort zone and behaving "round" will then be faster than a squished narrow one.
So good speed oriented +28s are actually faster for commuting, Roubaixs, etc. And for fireroads etc a good 35 or 38 will probably be the best choice. (Rivendell have a useful chart for tyre choice based on conditions and rider weight.)
Most useful link -
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/r...e-tubular.html
- notice that the the 28mm touring tyre kicks the racing tyres asses in RR, although it will also be the one designed least for speed. That's because wider is lower RR, and the test doesn't include aero. ***If you're not riding at effort levels and speeds where aerodynamics dominate, then wider is faster***.
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Problem with all of this is most road bikes aren't going to allow more than 25mm tires. This is where a cyclocross bike is great. I can get up to 42mm tires on mine.
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Most cross bikes are more relaxed in their geometry and for most people, this equals more comfort. While frame material doesn't really matter much, how they are built does. I've had several Trek aluminum framed bikes and they rode very harshly. I was very hesitant to buy another aluminum bike, but was interested in a cross bike. I ended up getting a Specialized Tricross Comp and fell in love with this bike the first ride. Ridden it on several century+ rides and have yet to ride another bike that was more comfortable. I do have a carbon Specialized Roubaix that is just as comfortable but is faster and more fun to ride than the cross bike.
Which isn't to say that the Roubaix isn't an outstanding bike design! It's a great bike and will still be somewhat faster than a Tricross fitted with, say, 32mm Sports Contacts - but that the speed difference will have shrunk.
Last edited by meanwhile; 07-26-09 at 02:21 PM.
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Since you asked for anecdotes, here's my experience at 150 lbs. on the same Bianchi Axis (aluminum frame, carbon fork) bike. I've ridden it with three different types of tires: 23mm road clinchers (currently Torino "open tubular") at 105psi, 28mm panaracer pacela slicks at 80-85psi, and real cyclocross tires at 32mm at roughly 45 psi (when mixing road/dirt riding). Honestly I don't feel all that big of a comfort difference on crappy roads when stepping up to the 28mm tires. I thought it'd be a bigger difference, but honestly, the difference between the 32mm cross tires and the 28mm slicks is far greater than the difference in the two road tires. But you have a rolling resistance penalty with dirt tires on the road. So...if I were you, I'd maybe try a 32mm slick tire and see how that rides. This is where the cyclocross or touring frames become a necessity because pure road frames won't allow those tires.
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Excellent discussion. Thanks guys...kind of input I was looking for. Width doesn't tell the whole story as there is a disparity in ride between knobby versus slick as mentioned...even at 32mm width. I think I need another frame. My Look 555 CF roadbike frame I believe will only accomodate 25mm tire width maximum. Yes I could sag the pressure a bit, but I like the idea of perhaps one frame and maybe two sets of 700 wheels...say one at 25mm and the other at 32mm which would allow swapping depending upon riding conditions. I know choosing the best value CX frame is a discussion left for another time but would like to choose a frame perhaps more versatile in terms of what wheels and tires I can run. I do love my Look frameset however...a teriffic roadbike with a forgiving ride for what it is...it is just bonejarrring on the potholed roads I ride at the pressures I ride at.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
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Most of this speed difference is probably due to the tyres. The Tricross comes with Spec Boroughs, which are thick walled and made out of an exceptionally tough compound. They're very hard to puncture, but you pay in speed - the rubber is less flexible and takes more energy to bend. I've known swapping the equivalent Spec 26s for their Fatboys make a considerable difference to speed. Playing with tyre choice is probably the quickest way of changing a bike's handling - a moderately priced bike with the right tyres will usually outhandle an expensive bike with a mediocre choice in rubber.
Which isn't to say that the Roubaix isn't an outstanding bike design! It's a great bike and will still be somewhat faster than a Tricross fitted with, say, 32mm Sports Contacts - but that the speed difference will have shrunk.
Which isn't to say that the Roubaix isn't an outstanding bike design! It's a great bike and will still be somewhat faster than a Tricross fitted with, say, 32mm Sports Contacts - but that the speed difference will have shrunk.
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It's simple, but not what people expect -
- Really narrow tyres have a decent aero advantage at higher speeds, and this matters more than rolling resistance in the TDF or time trials
- But narrow is BAD for rolling resistance - because RR isn't friction by hysteresis energy; otoh wide is good
- However tyre compound matters even more, and until recently it was hard to find wider tyres with fast compound
- Thinner tyre walls also lower RR, so do latex tubes
- Wider is also better fro braking and turning
- Higher pressure reduces RR
- As roads get worse and/or rider weight get higher, a tyre goes out of its parameters for optimum behaviour and HE and RR increase. A wider tyre that is still in its comfort zone and behaving "round" will then be faster than a squished narrow one.
So good speed oriented +28s are actually faster for commuting, Roubaixs, etc. And for fireroads etc a good 35 or 38 will probably be the best choice. (Rivendell have a useful chart for tyre choice based on conditions and rider weight.)
Most useful link -
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/r...e-tubular.html
- notice that the the 28mm touring tyre kicks the racing tyres asses in RR, although it will also be the one designed least for speed. That's because wider is lower RR, and the test doesn't include aero. ***If you're not riding at effort levels and speeds where aerodynamics dominate, then wider is faster***.
- Really narrow tyres have a decent aero advantage at higher speeds, and this matters more than rolling resistance in the TDF or time trials
- But narrow is BAD for rolling resistance - because RR isn't friction by hysteresis energy; otoh wide is good
- However tyre compound matters even more, and until recently it was hard to find wider tyres with fast compound
- Thinner tyre walls also lower RR, so do latex tubes
- Wider is also better fro braking and turning
- Higher pressure reduces RR
- As roads get worse and/or rider weight get higher, a tyre goes out of its parameters for optimum behaviour and HE and RR increase. A wider tyre that is still in its comfort zone and behaving "round" will then be faster than a squished narrow one.
So good speed oriented +28s are actually faster for commuting, Roubaixs, etc. And for fireroads etc a good 35 or 38 will probably be the best choice. (Rivendell have a useful chart for tyre choice based on conditions and rider weight.)
Most useful link -
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/r...e-tubular.html
- notice that the the 28mm touring tyre kicks the racing tyres asses in RR, although it will also be the one designed least for speed. That's because wider is lower RR, and the test doesn't include aero. ***If you're not riding at effort levels and speeds where aerodynamics dominate, then wider is faster***.
Very interesting, and thanks for the link. I wish I had a pair or 23c and 25c GP4000's to compare directly as I know that the 25c S-works tires are a totally different compound than any other 23c I have ridden.
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https://www.terrymorse.com/bike/rolres.html
The other things to know are that RR increases with the square of velocity - ie go 2x as fast and RR soaks up 4x as much power - but that air resistance increases with the cube.
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i have ridden 32's, 25's, and 23's, all on steel bikes. i didn't notice much difference between the 23 and 25, but with the 32 i was much more comfortable (im 175, and pressures were 100/110 for the 23, 90/100 for 25, and 85/90 for the 32's). I can run the 32's all the way down to about 60 psi without pinchflatting, but the firmer ride is much faster.
when i get around to building another road bike, it will fit at 32's. you can always run narrower tires, but going wider can be an issue, as you have noticed.
when i get around to building another road bike, it will fit at 32's. you can always run narrower tires, but going wider can be an issue, as you have noticed.
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Droptop...that is my experience as well. To make a difference, I need to go to at least 28mm tires and that means a new frame. So my dillemma is...either sell my roadbike and buy a cross bike that I could perhaps have two wheelsets for.....or buy a second CX bike to supplement my roadbike.
I do love roadbiking but only on smooth surfaces which are hard to come by where I ride.
I do love roadbiking but only on smooth surfaces which are hard to come by where I ride.
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Droptop...that is my experience as well. To make a difference, I need to go to at least 28mm tires and that means a new frame. So my dillemma is...either sell my roadbike and buy a cross bike that I could perhaps have two wheelsets for.....or buy a second CX bike to supplement my roadbike.
I do love roadbiking but only on smooth surfaces which are hard to come by where I ride.
I do love roadbiking but only on smooth surfaces which are hard to come by where I ride.
https://www.gunnarbikes.com/sport.php
Or a Soma Smoothie ES?
https://www.somafab.com/extrasmoothie.html
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Jobst Brandt is a legendary expert on bicycle technology - an ex-Porsche engineer who worked at Avocet and published the bible of bicycle wheel building. This is what he said about tyre width:
I.e. wide tyres made out of good, not too thick, rubber are faster than thin ones, but were hard to find when Brandt posted this. Sports Contacts and what have you have broken this mould.
https://yarchive.net/bike/slicks.html
The question often arises whether a small cross section tire has lower
rolling resistance than a larger one. The answer, as often, is yes
and no, because unseen factors come into play. Rolling resistance of
a tire arises almost entirely from flexural rubber losses in the tire
and tube. Rubber, especially with carbon black, as is commonly used in
tires, is a high loss material. On the other hand rubber without
carbon black although having lower losses, wears rapidly and has
miserable traction when wet.
Besides the tread, the tube of an inflated tire is so firmly pressed
against the casing that it, in effect, becomes an internal tread.
The tread and the tube together absorb the majority of the energy lost
in the rolling tire while the inter-cord binder (usually rubber) comes
in far behind. Tread scuffing on the road is even less significant.
Patterned treads measurably increase rolling resistance over slicks,
because the rubber bulges and deforms into tread voids when pressed
against the road. This effect, tread squirm, is mostly absent with
smooth tires because their tread cannot be deformed laterally by road
contact. Rubber, although elastic, is incompressible.
Small cross section tires experience more deformation than a large
cross section tire and therefore, should have greater rolling
resistance, but they generally do not, because large and small cross
section tires are not identical in other respects. Large tires nearly
always have thicker tread and often use heavier tubes, besides having
thicker casings. For these reasons, smaller tire usually have lower
rolling resistance, rather than from the smaller contact patch to which
it is often attributed.
These comparative values were measured on various tires over a range
of inflation pressures that were used to determine the response to
inflation. Cheap heavy tires gave the greatest improvement in rolling
resistance with increased pressure but were never as low as high
performance tires. High performance tires with thin sidewalls and
high TPI (threads per inch) were low in rolling resistance and
improved little with increasing inflation pressure.
The question often arises whether a small cross section tire has lower
rolling resistance than a larger one. The answer, as often, is yes
and no, because unseen factors come into play. Rolling resistance of
a tire arises almost entirely from flexural rubber losses in the tire
and tube. Rubber, especially with carbon black, as is commonly used in
tires, is a high loss material. On the other hand rubber without
carbon black although having lower losses, wears rapidly and has
miserable traction when wet.
Besides the tread, the tube of an inflated tire is so firmly pressed
against the casing that it, in effect, becomes an internal tread.
The tread and the tube together absorb the majority of the energy lost
in the rolling tire while the inter-cord binder (usually rubber) comes
in far behind. Tread scuffing on the road is even less significant.
Patterned treads measurably increase rolling resistance over slicks,
because the rubber bulges and deforms into tread voids when pressed
against the road. This effect, tread squirm, is mostly absent with
smooth tires because their tread cannot be deformed laterally by road
contact. Rubber, although elastic, is incompressible.
Small cross section tires experience more deformation than a large
cross section tire and therefore, should have greater rolling
resistance, but they generally do not, because large and small cross
section tires are not identical in other respects. Large tires nearly
always have thicker tread and often use heavier tubes, besides having
thicker casings. For these reasons, smaller tire usually have lower
rolling resistance, rather than from the smaller contact patch to which
it is often attributed.
These comparative values were measured on various tires over a range
of inflation pressures that were used to determine the response to
inflation. Cheap heavy tires gave the greatest improvement in rolling
resistance with increased pressure but were never as low as high
performance tires. High performance tires with thin sidewalls and
high TPI (threads per inch) were low in rolling resistance and
improved little with increasing inflation pressure.
#20
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Very interesting. My only data points:
- Tricross Sport with stock 32mm Borough CX are comfortable, roll ok, puncture fairly often. Well, whenever I'm riding with anyone else, it seems.
- Same bike with 23mm Vittoria Rubino Pro is really noticeably quicker, but less comfortable, and handles much much worse on anything that's not smooth. Riding over grass feels technical! However, it handles better on road - cornering feels sharper.
- Same bike with 35mm Maxxis Locust is a bit slower (than the Borough CX), no gain in comfort, but handles like a champ offroad.
I guess from the above, we conclude that the Rubino Pro is quicker not because it's thinner, but because it's a better rubber compound designed for speed, and it's lighter.
- Tricross Sport with stock 32mm Borough CX are comfortable, roll ok, puncture fairly often. Well, whenever I'm riding with anyone else, it seems.
- Same bike with 23mm Vittoria Rubino Pro is really noticeably quicker, but less comfortable, and handles much much worse on anything that's not smooth. Riding over grass feels technical! However, it handles better on road - cornering feels sharper.
- Same bike with 35mm Maxxis Locust is a bit slower (than the Borough CX), no gain in comfort, but handles like a champ offroad.
I guess from the above, we conclude that the Rubino Pro is quicker not because it's thinner, but because it's a better rubber compound designed for speed, and it's lighter.
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- Same bike with 23mm Vittoria Rubino Pro is really noticeably quicker, but less comfortable, and handles much much worse on anything that's not smooth. Riding over grass feels technical! However, it handles better on road - cornering feels sharper.
- Same bike with 35mm Maxxis Locust is a bit slower (than the Borough CX), no gain in comfort, but handles like a champ offroad.
I guess from the above, we conclude that the Rubino Pro is quicker not because it's thinner, but because it's a better rubber compound designed for speed, and it's lighter.
- Same bike with 35mm Maxxis Locust is a bit slower (than the Borough CX), no gain in comfort, but handles like a champ offroad.
I guess from the above, we conclude that the Rubino Pro is quicker not because it's thinner, but because it's a better rubber compound designed for speed, and it's lighter.
#22
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>I'm surprised at your Boroughs puncturing frequently - they have a very good rep for toughness.
They've never punctured for me while commuting, but virtually every bike tour I've done in the last 18 months I've had at least one. It's probably just a bit of bad luck. I've now ordered some Vittoria Randonneur Cross Pro's. Thing is, I no longer have much need for a 32mm slick - I either want 23mm for speed, or I want tread for offroad.
I also wanted to replace two of them because the LBS guy managed to kink the wire beads when "folding" them (he needed a lesson from Sheldon). Result is that sometimes they don't seat correctly and I explode tubes - I'm up to 3 so far.
Steve
They've never punctured for me while commuting, but virtually every bike tour I've done in the last 18 months I've had at least one. It's probably just a bit of bad luck. I've now ordered some Vittoria Randonneur Cross Pro's. Thing is, I no longer have much need for a 32mm slick - I either want 23mm for speed, or I want tread for offroad.
I also wanted to replace two of them because the LBS guy managed to kink the wire beads when "folding" them (he needed a lesson from Sheldon). Result is that sometimes they don't seat correctly and I explode tubes - I'm up to 3 so far.
Steve
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Talking tires after reading the Brandt article above (thanks!), I recommend taking a look at these..
https://https://www.rivbike.com/produc...product=10-092
or these, if you need 27s...
https://www.rivbike.com/products/list...product=10-034
I have the 650b version of the Jack Browns on my Riv and they roll so nice!
https://https://www.rivbike.com/produc...product=10-092
or these, if you need 27s...
https://www.rivbike.com/products/list...product=10-034
I have the 650b version of the Jack Browns on my Riv and they roll so nice!
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If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team.
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team.