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Recreational Cyclocross and Gravelbiking This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like :The Dirty Kanza". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

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Old 08-13-09, 10:22 AM   #1
fooeynet
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For those of you with Tricross braking shudder/judder

Has anyone else noticed that Specialized is now selling their own front fork brake hanger?
I haven't seen it in person yet but the manual is online @ http://cdn.specialized.com/OA_MEDIA/...ross_Guide.pdf. It's dated July 2009.

From the manual:
"The Specialized Tricross Fork Brake Hanger is designed to reduce front brake chatter."

Has anyone seen/tried this? Was too much business going to the KF Kona hanger?
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Old 08-13-09, 07:11 PM   #2
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I don't get it. Is it a kind of brake booster?
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Old 08-14-09, 05:58 AM   #3
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Sure is a lot of talk about this problem, and it looks like its been going on for years. Guess I'll scratch the Tricross off my list (it was that and the JTS).
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Old 08-14-09, 06:04 AM   #4
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No wonder Specialized is creating more of it's own components as time goes on.
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Old 08-14-09, 06:51 AM   #5
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My Tricross brake problems were made of my own stupidity. Mis-interpreted the concept of "toe-in". Once I began to brain correctly, and toed in my front brakes properly, problems gone. Brake problems, anyway. Braining problems still abundant. Brakes smooth, quiet, powerful.
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Old 08-14-09, 10:32 AM   #6
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This is so ridiculous. Specialized is trying to help fix something that really isn't a problem with the bike itself, but morons that can't correctly adjust brakes. Seriously. This little item may help the issue by masking the adjustment issues, but it can easily be corrected yourself. I've had 3 Tricross and have had this issue with all of them. For 3 minutes.
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Old 08-14-09, 10:45 AM   #7
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The brake shudder problem is not unique to the tricross. It is fairly common with cyclocross bikes/forks. Go to the cyclocross forum on roadbikereview and you can read many threads on this topic.

The shudder is (most likely) caused by the fork flexing which slackens the cable, the fork rebounds which tightens the cable which causes the fork to flex which slackens the cable, etc.
Placing the hanger lower reduces the shudder.
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Old 08-14-09, 11:03 AM   #8
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The brake shudder problem is not unique to the tricross. It is fairly common with cyclocross bikes/forks. Go to the cyclocross forum on roadbikereview and you can read many threads on this topic.

The shudder is (most likely) caused by the fork flexing which slackens the cable, the fork rebounds which tightens the cable which causes the fork to flex which slackens the cable, etc.
Placing the hanger lower reduces the shudder.
Sure, this is exactly why it happens, but the proper way to fix it isn't to change hardware, it's adjusting the brakes properly. This changing hardware by Specialized only masks the issue. User error.
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Old 08-14-09, 12:08 PM   #9
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Agreed...I removed the stock v-brakes and installed a VERY powerful set of Canti's...no shudder, no squealing...learn to install your brakes correctly. I use an under the stem mount FYI...still not an issue.
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Old 08-14-09, 12:24 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by funurdiesel View Post
The brake shudder problem is not unique to the tricross. It is fairly common with cyclocross bikes/forks. Go to the cyclocross forum on roadbikereview and you can read many threads on this topic.

The shudder is (most likely) caused by the fork flexing which slackens the cable, the fork rebounds which tightens the cable which causes the fork to flex which slackens the cable, etc.
Placing the hanger lower reduces the shudder.
I didn't find this to be the case when I had shudder issues. The fork mount stop didn't help. I fixed the shudder by toeing in but the squealing was bad. I changed the calipers out and now both issues are solved.
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Old 08-14-09, 01:30 PM   #11
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Sure, this is exactly why it happens, but the proper way to fix it isn't to change hardware, it's adjusting the brakes properly. This changing hardware by Specialized only masks the issue. User error.
I don't disagree with you. My post was directing more towards the people who are crossing the tricross off of their lists because of these issues. The tricross seems to get a lot of attention (good and bad) on this forum. I wouldn't cross it off of my list of bikes to consider because some people have brake shudder issues.

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Old 08-14-09, 02:09 PM   #12
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I'm not disagreeing with you either. There are numerous ways to fix the problem, but in reality, people should be aware that it's not a mechanical issue. Same thing with wheels. I got some very nice Ultegra/Open Pros from Performance. They were out of true when I got them. Not a defect in the wheels and I didn't blame the manufacturer. It was the people that put the wheel together that the issue resided with. But a little knowledge on my part and a couple tools and I was able to fix it properly. Same can be said for the shudder issue with canti brakes.
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Old 08-14-09, 04:28 PM   #13
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I'd still cross it off my list. I don't know a thing about setting up brakes, I need brakes that work from when I leave the store. So, yes, user error, I need something more error proof. I don't hear JTS owners complaining about brake issues.
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Old 08-14-09, 05:56 PM   #14
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If you believe that it is a brake setup issue then you'll believe that you're just as likely to have issues (shudder, squealing, etc) with the JTS as you are with the tricross.
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Old 08-14-09, 06:08 PM   #15
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Exactly. I hear other cyclocross bike owners talking about the same problem. It's canti brakes with the smaller forks. Probably never see this with a mountain bike and cantis because of the larger fork which means less possibility of movement.
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Old 08-16-09, 07:53 AM   #16
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>I'd still cross it off my list. I don't know a thing about setting up brakes, I need brakes that work from when I leave the store.

Yeah. Tricross brakes don't work at all when you leave the store. In fact, Tricrosses come with a sign warning people who live on hills not to buy them.

(Fwiw, in the 18 months or so I've had my two, I've experienced about a week of very mild fork shudder. Not sure why, it just appeared for a while - pulling up to a red light, the fork would vibrate a bit. Then it just disappeared by itself. I guess the brake pads were at a certain stage of wear. I did see extreme fork shudder in a JTS that I test rode though. So you should never ever buy a JTS under any circumstances.)
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Old 08-16-09, 08:54 AM   #17
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I don't get it. It appears to be just a cable stop. Not sure how it would effect shudder.
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Old 07-16-10, 07:45 PM   #18
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I installed these this past week on my and my brother's Tricrosses. It completely eliminated fork shudder / brake squeal on mine ('07 TriCross Comp with the alloy steerer in the fork). It eliminated the shudder on his, but there's still occasional but much reduced brake squeal.

They were a snap to install.
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Old 07-20-10, 10:26 AM   #19
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Hey guys I have never ridden a Tricross, but yes fork shudder is an endemic problem on cyclocross bikes, it was a big problem for me, and in talking with the mechanics at a couple of LBS's while fixing it, I learned it was a big all around problem. Lennard Zinn has a great article explaining it: http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/...o-cross_101807

Basically road style forks on 700c wheels get overpowered by the canti brakes and flex backwards (this was very noticeable on my Bianchi Reparto Corse XC) this flex causes the distance between the stem mounted cable stop and the cantis to lengthen which has the effect of jamming the brakes on harder, which causes the wheel to lock up further, which causes the fork the flex more, and you get a nasty positive feedback loop. I thought there was something wrong with me that I couldn't adjust my brakes properly to solve the problem, and I tried everything. Basically it's a design problem, and the fork mounted cable stop addresses that by reducing the cable distance that can be affected by the fork flex. Some manufacturers have started to come out with them as standard fittings. I got a fork hanger and was prepared to mount it but it was just going to be too kludgy on my bike and I found another solution: mini-Vs for the front wheel. This is detailed in a recent post of mine: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-cured-finally! I know some have had problems with the mini-V but mine is working beautifully with no travel agents.

This problem is definitely not user error, it is a design error that can be solved in several ways and has been by individuals and now it seems some manufacturers. Perhaps stiffer, burlier forks would help but that would also be adding weight and changing the riding feel.
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Old 07-20-10, 11:00 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Saddle Up View Post
I don't get it. It appears to be just a cable stop. Not sure how it would effect shudder.
From the Zinn article:

Quote:
As the brake is applied, the ground applies a force directed backward on the tire as shown, causing the fork to flex backward. Problem is, the brake cable is fixed at one end at the brake caliper and at the other end at the cable stop above the headset..

Think “bow and arrow” and imagine the fork between the cantilever bosses and the top of the headset is like the bow, and the cable is like the string. As the fork flexes back due to braking, the cable tightens like the string in the bow, because its two ends – the cable hanger and the brake calipers, have moved further apart. So even though you may have pulled the brake lever carefully enough to modulate it properly, as soon as the pad slows the wheel down, the fork flexes back and tightens the cable, which in turn pulls the pads harder against the rim. This in turn flexes the fork back further, which tightens the cable more, which pulls the pads harder against the rim, and so on.

Eventually, something has to give: Either the tire must slip on the ground, the rider must go over the handlebars, or the pads must break free from the rim. It is the latter that creates the shudder, the pads bind and release, bind and release, each time allowing the fork to flex back and forth and the tire to roll and stop, roll and stop. This is why the problem goes away in mud and wet sand, because the pad can break free smoothly. It is also why smaller pads with more toe-in help.

If the headset is loose, the problem is greater, because the length change between the brake posts and the cable stop atop the headset is greater as the fork moves back when the brake is applied.

Now you can understand why the advent of suspension forks with the cable stop attached to the brake arch bridging between the fork legs improved braking performance on mountain bikes with center-pull cantilever brakes – the arch with the cable stop took the steering tube’s flex out of the equation.
Think of it this way -

- The fork mounted hanger stops small vibrations in the cable

- Small vibrations matter a lot because the braking system is designed to magnify small forces in the cable into large ones at the brake
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Old 07-20-10, 07:49 PM   #21
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What is a fork mounted cable stop?
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Old 07-20-10, 07:57 PM   #22
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I put the Specialized fork mounted cable stop on my Tricross SS and it did solve the brake chatter as advertised. For those that claim it is improper setup, I haven't had brake chatter on any of the three other bikes I have with cantilever brakes.
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Old 07-24-10, 12:58 AM   #23
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and importantly for those seeing a topic like this, my 2010 sport has no judder issues at all out of the box so to speak. Have only ridden perhaps 250 km on it so far, but have gone down a hill at 70k and when braking at this or much slower speeds, there is absolutely no brake judder, they have fixed it I guess.

And my front toe in could be set properly, pads appear to be rather parallel to the rims.

so for anyone thinking of this bike, dont be scared by reports of it, and a mechanic I trust told me that the fix for older bikes is rather simple and not expensive.

its a great bike, for me it will be used nearly always onthe road, is touring capable, same wheelbase as my old tourer, same chain stay length, so no rear pannier/heel issues. A fun mix of road bike and mtn/tourer. Stable at speed, quicker steering than my tourer but not a lot, meaning for me and probably the vast percentage of users, its stable and non tiring for long recreational rides.
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