Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    Devil's Advocate
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    My Bikes
    Sterling Road bike, Chromolly Specialized Allez, Bianchi was given to me don't know model
    Posts
    134
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Co-Motion Demon or Rock Lobster Scandium

    I'm planning on building a bike up around the frame and using it for cyclocross racing and road riding. I am torn between these two frames, the Demon is made of Reynolds 853 which should make it about indestructible, something I could depend on for years. But I don't know that durability over time is as much of an issue as it is made out to be for Aluminum. The Rock Lobster I am sure is lighter as well, but I don't know how much, if it's not too far and I can build a very light bike either way it shouldn't make a difference. Any knowledge or suggestions about either of these bikes would be very much appreciated, or if anyone knows a frame that they think is much better than either of those.

  2. #2
    smitten by саша pwdeegan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Eugene, OR
    My Bikes
    Salsa La Cruz with Rohloff; mutt parts
    Posts
    525
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    i was at the Co-Motion factory the other day and had a blast riding around their bikes (i didn't ride the demon). the craftsmanship and build quality are superb. plus, they're a bunch of really nice cycle-crazy PNW folks. you can't really go wrong with either frame; but all things being more or less equal, i like steel, and i like Co-Motion, so it'd be an easy call for me.

  3. #3
    Senior Member bbllaakke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    My Bikes
    Raleigh Sports, Giant Cadex, Waterford X-11, Specialized Rockhopper Comp FS, Viscount Aerospace Pro, Scwinn Passage
    Posts
    193
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    853 isnt really indestructible. It seems to dent quite easily because the tubing is so thin

  4. #4
    Devil's Advocate
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    My Bikes
    Sterling Road bike, Chromolly Specialized Allez, Bianchi was given to me don't know model
    Posts
    134
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've seen a couple of co-motion bikes before because the shop I work at is a dealer, it's awesome to hear from somebody that has actually been to the shop and met the guys that worked there though. I'm definitely leaning a lot more towards the co-motion at this point, I feel like a can get a very light frame that won't really wear with time, I could get the co-pilot option too and be able to take the bike with me anywhere.

    In response to the 853 denting easily, does it dent any easier than aluminum, I also am under the impression that aluminum loses it's strength from a bend and the frame often becomes useless whereas steel can maintain it's strength and still be functional assuming the dent is more aesthetic than geometry altering, I was wondering if this is mostly over talking up steel or if this was seriously worth considering. I also understand steel doesn't lose it strength over time whereas Aluminum maintains it's strength for a few years than seems to lose it's strength. Is this mostly over exaggerating or is steel, even 853, worth it if you looking for a bike you keep for years.
    Last edited by Captain Jake; 03-17-10 at 04:09 PM.

  5. #5
    smitten by саша pwdeegan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Eugene, OR
    My Bikes
    Salsa La Cruz with Rohloff; mutt parts
    Posts
    525
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    both steel and AL will last a long time if you don't crash them. AL is known to have rotten fatigue characteristics; which means it's fine, until it's not, and there's no 'tell' and no bend---all snap, crackle, ouch. But, and it's a big but, this wouldn't happen unless you somehow compromised the tubing (e.g., by crashing it). Plenty of AL bikes out there, overbuilt as they are, never encounter this problem. Steel is more forgiving; just the same, if you really crash an 853 frame, you can also do bad things to it, and no, it's not really repairable even though it's steel (you could cobble a fix if you were trekking, but that'd be a last-resort thing). Both are more durable than carbon. The best option is to avoid bad crashes!

    The whole steel vs AL epic battle really seems to boil down to user preference. I like steel. Co-motion builds bikes using both. If i had a Co-motion AL tandem, I would be the first to also say: i like AL.

  6. #6
    Devil's Advocate
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    My Bikes
    Sterling Road bike, Chromolly Specialized Allez, Bianchi was given to me don't know model
    Posts
    134
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Once again, thanks a bunch, you've really made the choice a lot easier to make.

  7. #7
    Eternal NooB threeflys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Diego,CA
    My Bikes
    Rivendell Bleriot 650b, Salsa Las Cruces, Kona Fire Mtn
    Posts
    938
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Here's my .02 from racing a bit of cross last year...

    Of those two, I easily go with Rock Lobster hands down... Nothing bad about Co-Motion, in fact my steel bike might come from them...

    But, Paul Sadoff at Rock Lobster is a cross racer himself and sponsors a cross team so the RL is going to a much better racer in my opinion... If I was buying a tandem or full on tourer, I would buy a Co-Motion but for a cross racer go with someone that actually races cross...

    I race a Salsa and couldn't be happier and I've used as a road bike as well before I got a full on road bike, no worries... Not sure what your price range is, but you can usually get Salsa's for good prices, especially if you get last years model... Dont be afraid of buying used, especially if you're going to be a Cat 4 (new people) because you WILL go down a few times during a race...

    Just my .02...
    If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team.

    Litespeed Xicon with Campy Chorus 11sp/DT Swiss
    Salsa Las Cruces Cross with Chorus 10sp/Ksyrium SL
    Kona Fire Mountain

  8. #8
    Eternal NooB threeflys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Diego,CA
    My Bikes
    Rivendell Bleriot 650b, Salsa Las Cruces, Kona Fire Mtn
    Posts
    938
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pwdeegan View Post
    both steel and AL will last a long time if you don't crash them. AL is known to have rotten fatigue characteristics; which means it's fine, until it's not, and there's no 'tell' and no bend---all snap, crackle, ouch. But, and it's a big but, this wouldn't happen unless you somehow compromised the tubing (e.g., by crashing it). Plenty of AL bikes out there, overbuilt as they are, never encounter this problem. Steel is more forgiving; just the same, if you really crash an 853 frame, you can also do bad things to it, and no, it's not really repairable even though it's steel (you could cobble a fix if you were trekking, but that'd be a last-resort thing). Both are more durable than carbon. The best option is to avoid bad crashes!

    The whole steel vs AL epic battle really seems to boil down to user preference. I like steel. Co-motion builds bikes using both. If i had a Co-motion AL tandem, I would be the first to also say: i like AL.
    No doubt both materials can break, but there's a reason until just a year or two ago Aluminum was the choice for just about any facet of cross... Now most of the big boys are on carbon...
    If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team.

    Litespeed Xicon with Campy Chorus 11sp/DT Swiss
    Salsa Las Cruces Cross with Chorus 10sp/Ksyrium SL
    Kona Fire Mountain

  9. #9
    Devil's Advocate
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    My Bikes
    Sterling Road bike, Chromolly Specialized Allez, Bianchi was given to me don't know model
    Posts
    134
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by threeflys View Post
    Here's my .02 from racing a bit of cross last year...

    Of those two, I easily go with Rock Lobster hands down... Nothing bad about Co-Motion, in fact my steel bike might come from them...

    But, Paul Sadoff at Rock Lobster is a cross racer himself and sponsors a cross team so the RL is going to a much better racer in my opinion... If I was buying a tandem or full on tourer, I would buy a Co-Motion but for a cross racer go with someone that actually races cross...

    I race a Salsa and couldn't be happier and I've used as a road bike as well before I got a full on road bike, no worries... Not sure what your price range is, but you can usually get Salsa's for good prices, especially if you get last years model... Dont be afraid of buying used, especially if you're going to be a Cat 4 (new people) because you WILL go down a few times during a race...

    Just my .02...
    Any idea what the weight difference between the two frames? I don't anticipate ever becoming a top end rider so I'm not sure I need the fastest frame available, but at the same time I definitely want something very competitive. I really like the idea of having a bike I could keep and beat on for life without fear of the frame losing it's strength, and I work at a shop that sells co-motion so I could get a very good deal on the frame. But while I'm definitely leaning towards the co-motion, I will go for the Rock Lobster if you think it's that much more competitive.

  10. #10
    Eternal NooB threeflys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Diego,CA
    My Bikes
    Rivendell Bleriot 650b, Salsa Las Cruces, Kona Fire Mtn
    Posts
    938
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Jake,
    The steel bike will be a little heavier, but don't let that deter you if you want the Co-Motion...

    As far as being competitive and beating on the bike... I find it VERY hard to believe most anyone that posts on here is beast enough to fatigue any frame enough to lost it's strength...

    I'm not saying the Co-Motion wouldn't be competitive enough for you, it's just that Co-Motion isn't in the business of building cross bikes even if they offer a frame... It's easy to build a frame and throw some canti studs and clearance on it, but that doesn't make a cross bike... Of the two you mention I would go with Rock Lobster hands down...

    Now unless you're set on custom, I really suggest you look at the following options:
    Salsa Chile Con Crosso, any Ridley cross bike, Kona Jake the Snake

    The think I like about the Salsa is it's a born and bred cross bike from a company that has been doing cross for a long time and it comes with a fork (or complete if you need) for a LOT less than a Rock Lobster or, I'm sure, a Co-Motion... The Salsa is less than $2k for a very competitive build (maybe upgrade the wheels...) or less than $800 for frame/fork (these are '09 models I'm sure...)

    Again, if you're just starting out in cross these will be MORE than enough for a few years until you get upgrade-itis (you will)

    You gotta do what feels right to you, but would you go to a Sushi Bar to get a hamburger?
    If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team.

    Litespeed Xicon with Campy Chorus 11sp/DT Swiss
    Salsa Las Cruces Cross with Chorus 10sp/Ksyrium SL
    Kona Fire Mountain

  11. #11
    Devil's Advocate
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    My Bikes
    Sterling Road bike, Chromolly Specialized Allez, Bianchi was given to me don't know model
    Posts
    134
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    First off thanks a bunch on the information. You've got me convinced to not worry about aluminum. As far as going with the frame, the Rock Lobster has a claimed weight a pound less than the Salsa, albeit that could very well be stretched information. Secondly I'm very much for supporting small companies and work that's done by the people that run the company and not sent overseas. I don't have anything against any of those frames, I'd just rather support a small company. I also have a very hard time parting with bikes so I'd rather start with something on the higher end.

  12. #12
    Eternal NooB threeflys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Diego,CA
    My Bikes
    Rivendell Bleriot 650b, Salsa Las Cruces, Kona Fire Mtn
    Posts
    938
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    sounds like you need the Rock Lobster then...

    Enjoy! I've talked with Paul the builder and he is truly a joy to deal with!

    Chris
    If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team.

    Litespeed Xicon with Campy Chorus 11sp/DT Swiss
    Salsa Las Cruces Cross with Chorus 10sp/Ksyrium SL
    Kona Fire Mountain

  13. #13
    Devil's Advocate
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    My Bikes
    Sterling Road bike, Chromolly Specialized Allez, Bianchi was given to me don't know model
    Posts
    134
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm definitely going with the Rock Lobster, you helped make coming to these forums an excellent experience.

  14. #14
    smitten by саша pwdeegan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Eugene, OR
    My Bikes
    Salsa La Cruz with Rohloff; mutt parts
    Posts
    525
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by threeflys View Post
    Jake,
    I'm not saying the Co-Motion wouldn't be competitive enough for you, it's just that Co-Motion isn't in the business of building cross bikes even if they offer a frame... It's easy to build a frame and throw some canti studs and clearance on it, but that doesn't make a cross bike... Of the two you mention I would go with Rock Lobster hands down...
    don't be ridiculous: Co-Motion has plenty of cross racers, too. shoot, some of them used to race for Salsa (which is completely fab'd in TW, as opposed to handmade in the US). not sure where you're finding your facts.

  15. #15
    Eternal NooB threeflys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Diego,CA
    My Bikes
    Rivendell Bleriot 650b, Salsa Las Cruces, Kona Fire Mtn
    Posts
    938
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pwdeegan View Post
    don't be ridiculous: Co-Motion has plenty of cross racers, too. shoot, some of them used to race for Salsa (which is completely fab'd in TW, as opposed to handmade in the US). not sure where you're finding your facts.
    I'm sure the Co-Motion is a very nice bike, that wasn't my point...

    My point is this: How many cross bikes does Co-Motion build that are raced? I'm not saying they're not out there, but I've never seen any locally or in any results of races... You have the fortune of being in Co-Motion country and I'm sure have LOTS of Co-Motions ridng around... If you lived in SoCal, you'd think Specialized was the best bike made by the number of them on the roads... (fine bikes btw, just not for me)

    And yes, Salsas are made in Taiwan... what's your point? Do you really think the majority of riders on an aluminum frame is going to feel the difference between American and Taiwanese made frames? On a cross course? I'd bet a paycheck no... I applaud the OP for wanting an American made bike and still say a company like Rock Lobster, who has sponsored a cross team for something like 20 years and has a builder that races cross (and does very well) is going to build a better cross race bike...

    I'll say this, if I was going to buy a cross bike that I was just going to commute and ride the trails on I'd look seriously at the Co-Motion as they are very nice bikes...

    BTW- I love how people think that just because a bike is made by someone in Taiwan, it's inferior quality... Do you not think a guy in Taiwan can build a bike and has just as much pride as someone in America? Now, there is a difference between hand welded and machine welded, especially in steel but the nationality of the welder has nothing to do with the final product...
    If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team.

    Litespeed Xicon with Campy Chorus 11sp/DT Swiss
    Salsa Las Cruces Cross with Chorus 10sp/Ksyrium SL
    Kona Fire Mountain

  16. #16
    smitten by саша pwdeegan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Eugene, OR
    My Bikes
    Salsa La Cruz with Rohloff; mutt parts
    Posts
    525
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by threeflys View Post
    I'm sure the Co-Motion is a very nice bike, that wasn't my point...
    BTW- I love how people think that just because a bike is made by someone in Taiwan, it's inferior quality... Do you not think a guy in Taiwan can build a bike and has just as much pride as someone in America? Now, there is a difference between hand welded and machine welded, especially in steel but the nationality of the welder has nothing to do with the final product...
    don't be ridiculous (the sequel)! i've actually been to TW (and CN; and fluently speak mandarin as a 老外). i also own a salsa (which i love exactly for that nice-but-cheap price point)---and you're right, i doubt someone riding in the heat of a race can tell the difference. but off the bike, looking at the welds (co-motion or rock lobster included here), the quality of the small US fab. shop vs. the TW fabricator is easily apparent. on my salsa, bike that i may love, the weld quality can't shake a drunken finger at co-motions or the like. it is inferior in quality. oh, it rides wonderfully, but it's craftsmanship can't compare.

    (ultimately, this isn't about co-motion or rock lobster; for which the "we-sponsor-so-buy-us" is still a specious argument, for rather obvious reasons. nonetheless, you are right, though not for the reasons you argue for, that the rock lobster is an excellent choice, co-motion or not.)

  17. #17
    Devil's Advocate
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    My Bikes
    Sterling Road bike, Chromolly Specialized Allez, Bianchi was given to me don't know model
    Posts
    134
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pwdeegan View Post
    don't be ridiculous (the sequel)! i've actually been to TW (and CN; and fluently speak mandarin as a 老外). i also own a salsa (which i love exactly for that nice-but-cheap price point)---and you're right, i doubt someone riding in the heat of a race can tell the difference. but off the bike, looking at the welds (co-motion or rock lobster included here), the quality of the small US fab. shop vs. the TW fabricator is easily apparent. on my salsa, bike that i may love, the weld quality can't shake a drunken finger at co-motions or the like. it is inferior in quality. oh, it rides wonderfully, but it's craftsmanship can't compare.

    (ultimately, this isn't about co-motion or rock lobster; for which the "we-sponsor-so-buy-us" is still a specious argument, for rather obvious reasons. nonetheless, you are right, though not for the reasons you argue for, that the rock lobster is an excellent choice, co-motion or not.)
    There is definitely a difference in quality between Taiwanese bikes and American bikes, you can see it if look look at an American made Cannondale and a Taiwanese one, in which they have both welders sand down the welds to smooth them out. At the same time though, the Taiwanese bikes are still very well put together, Cannondale still has lifetime warranties on all of their bikes, because while the quality isn't quite as high, it is by no means poor. This is in agreement with you, not an argument btw. I would never worry about quality when buying a bike that was built overseas, considering almost all but custom made made bikes are now made there.

    I quite simply strongly support small companies over big businesses that sell more bikes by paying lower wages to oversea workers. I don't blame them because to survive that is the way to do it, but I like supporting the people that still build bikes here, and I like the idea of building a frame with the customer that's going to buy it in mind.

  18. #18
    smitten by саша pwdeegan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Eugene, OR
    My Bikes
    Salsa La Cruz with Rohloff; mutt parts
    Posts
    525
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jake View Post
    I quite simply strongly support small companies over big businesses that sell more bikes by paying lower wages to oversea workers. I don't blame them because to survive that is the way to do it, but I like supporting the people that still build bikes here, and I like the idea of building a frame with the customer that's going to buy it in mind.
    +1

  19. #19
    Eternal NooB threeflys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Diego,CA
    My Bikes
    Rivendell Bleriot 650b, Salsa Las Cruces, Kona Fire Mtn
    Posts
    938
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    So I talked with Paul Sadof of Rock Lobster again this year at the San Diego Custom Bike Show and his personality and knowledge is just amazing... He had 5 bikes on display and all were beautiful... You can tell he is well respected with the other builders as several came up and was asking him questions as I was hanging out in his display...

    I don't think you could be disappointed with a Rock Lobster for racing...
    If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team.

    Litespeed Xicon with Campy Chorus 11sp/DT Swiss
    Salsa Las Cruces Cross with Chorus 10sp/Ksyrium SL
    Kona Fire Mountain

  20. #20
    Devil's Advocate
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    My Bikes
    Sterling Road bike, Chromolly Specialized Allez, Bianchi was given to me don't know model
    Posts
    134
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by threeflys View Post
    So I talked with Paul Sadof of Rock Lobster again this year at the San Diego Custom Bike Show and his personality and knowledge is just amazing... He had 5 bikes on display and all were beautiful... You can tell he is well respected with the other builders as several came up and was asking him questions as I was hanging out in his display...

    I don't think you could be disappointed with a Rock Lobster for racing...
    Trust me, you have me convinced. Save a little more and I'll be ordering a frame. Thanks for your info on Paul Sadof again.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •