Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    rockford, il
    My Bikes
    Trek 7700, C'dale R2000
    Posts
    2,646
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Test Schwalbe Marthon Dureme tires. (meanwile!)

    I got a new Stevens Cyclocross bike. It came by default with Conti City Ride tires.
    The bike will be used for fast touring on limestone and low quality black top also called chip seal.

    The question is how much of an improvement in speed and handling could I expect by purchasing better, more expensive tires.

    I have this trail here. It is limestone + lousy black top + pretty good black top and has intersections with stop signs.
    I have established my best time with 35 mm Bontrager and 35 mm Conti Cty Ride tires as 150 minutes for this 43 miles.

    I did that 43 miles today with the Schwalbe Marathon Dureme tires in 136 minutes.

  2. #2
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,903
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I feel completely vindicated! 10% faster is a hell of a lot for something as cheap as a tyre upgrade - people upgrade frames and groups to get much less than that.

    Also -

    - That sounds like a very nice time for a ride like that!

    - The Duremes are 35s? Regular tubes inside rather than latex? You might get another slight edge with latex...

    - Re your priorities - speed with tolerable comfort on rough roads - have you tried Specialized Bar Phat pads under your tape? And/or that fancy Lizardskin DSP tape?

    Now that my back is almost fixed (weird cause - it turned out to be a trapped nerve cause by using an old cardigan to protect my high tech ergo chair from my cats - pressure from a seam?) I'm ordering Bar Phat, Lizardskins, and - subject to a final tape measure check - 40mm Marathon Extremes. (Duremes with some added grip on the rolling section.)

    With an increase that big are you going to stop now or try any more tweaks? Guess-ology tells me that you'd do very well to get even a few more % out of tyre set up - this was such a huge jump.
    Last edited by meanwhile; 06-27-10 at 09:41 PM.

  3. #3
    .
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Hillsboro, Oregon
    My Bikes
    2010 Moots Psychlo-x ybb, 2013 Soma ES, 89 Trek 950
    Posts
    3,706
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Wow, that's impressive guys. Will, what's your general feeling towards these tires as compared to high pressure 23/25's? I'm really wanting to go this route myself to give myself a ride that I can truly disregard the surface conditions. I was thinking Marathon Supremes, but maybe the Duremes are the way to go. Man I wish I had as much disposable income and time as you Will. Must be nice!
    Demented internet tail wagging imbicile.

  4. #4
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,903
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by knobster View Post
    Wow, that's impressive guys. Will, what's your general feeling towards these tires as compared to high pressure 23/25's? I'm really wanting to go this route myself to give myself a ride that I can truly disregard the surface conditions. I was thinking Marathon Supremes, but maybe the Duremes are the way to go.
    If you are going on to bad roads, then the Duremes should be better than the Supremes because of their cornering grip. If you want to ride aggressively off road then I'd go for the Extremes - the tread isn't nearly as "extreme" as it looks in Schwalbe's pictures:

    http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/catego...eme-tyre-33781

    Importantly, the tread teeth are square and so non-flexing - energy won't be used up in tread flex on the road and the teeth won't "squirm" under hard cornering on tarmac.

    For what I think you want I'd put an Extreme on the front wheel, where grip is critical. Most rolling resistance happens at the back, where most of your weight is on the flat, so you could put a Dureme there and get most of the benefits of each tyre. (This is a classic tyre pattern - not my invention, alas.) Remember that braking and turning hard on gravel and dirt were not part of Will's very carefully designed spec; if they are part of yours then put that extra grip at the front.

    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html#mixing

    Bikes that are used some of the time on loose surfaces often benefit from a wider front tire, with a fairly agressive tread, coupled with a somewhat narrower, smoother rear tire.

    The wide, knobby front tire will provide the all-important front wheel traction. If your front tire skids, it almost always leads to a crash. For riding in soft conditions, such as sand or mud, a wide front tire is essential. If the front tire sinks in and gets bogged down, you're stuck. If the front tire rolls through a soft patch OK, you can generally power the rear through to follow it.


    The narrower, smoother rear tire will have lower rolling resistance. Since most of the weight is carried by the rear tire, rolling resistance is more important on the rear than the front. If the rear tire slips, in most cases the worst that will happen is that you'll have to get off and walk.
    The downside compared to two Extremes will be reduced climbing ability on loose stuff.

    The best review I could find on Extremes is here:

    http://www.bicyclesmile.com/reviews/...rathonextreme/

    - This implied that Extremes will be a little slower on the some other variety of Marathon (unspecified, but after looking at other reviews on the site, pr
    Last edited by meanwhile; 06-28-10 at 11:22 AM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    rockford, il
    My Bikes
    Trek 7700, C'dale R2000
    Posts
    2,646
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Sorry for the late follow up. I was on a bike tour with no Internet access.
    I like to explain something for those bikers who are not interested in maximum speed.
    My post reports the fastest speed I could obtain on a very often traveled bike route. Actually my interest is energy conservation on long tours like 100 miles (and more) per day. Average speed is just an expression of less energy needed with those tires. I have no Watts meter on my bikes. Therefore maximum average speed at a given HR (heart rate) tells me that this or that equipment is more efficient.
    In simple words: There is a hell of a different feeling at the end of a 100 mile ride, on limestone, with a CF bike and efficient tires than with a full suspension bike at twice the weight and lousy tires. After the former ride I am relaxed and smiling, after the latter ride I was exhausted and tired.
    This insight becomes very important on Cross Country tours.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    rockford, il
    My Bikes
    Trek 7700, C'dale R2000
    Posts
    2,646
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
    I feel completely vindicated! 10% faster is a hell of a lot for something as cheap as a tyre upgrade - people upgrade frames and groups to get much less than that.

    Also -

    - That sounds like a very nice time for a ride like that!

    - The Duremes are 35s? Regular tubes inside rather than latex? You might get another slight edge with latex...

    - Re your priorities - speed with tolerable comfort on rough roads - have you tried Specialized Bar Phat pads under your tape? And/or that fancy Lizardskin DSP tape?

    Now that my back is almost fixed (weird cause - it turned out to be a trapped nerve cause by using an old cardigan to protect my high tech ergo chair from my cats - pressure from a seam?) I'm ordering Bar Phat, Lizardskins, and - subject to a final tape measure check - 40mm Marathon Extremes. (Duremes with some added grip on the rolling section.)

    With an increase that big are you going to stop now or try any more tweaks? Guess-ology tells me that you'd do very well to get even a few more % out of tyre set up - this was such a huge jump.
    You deserve all the credit if for nothing else but your persistance and putting up with me.
    I use regular tubes and the Duremes are 35 mm inflated at only 60 PSI because of the lousy limestone surface.

    Regarding trying more tweaking:
    I will focus on riding hard and often to learn how consistant things are. In other words focus on nutrition, cadence and HR.
    I just did a 100 mile limestone tour, against a steady NW wind, in just under 6:00 hours biking time (Astrale 8 average). Most of the time on aerobars. I could not have done that with Bontrager 35 mm or the Conti City Ride tires.
    BTW, I exhausted my body to the point that I got close to bonking. The next day I felt the nutrition deficit and had to Carb up.

    I hope your back will get fixed. My best wishes.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    rockford, il
    My Bikes
    Trek 7700, C'dale R2000
    Posts
    2,646
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by knobster View Post
    Wow, that's impressive guys. Will, what's your general feeling towards these tires as compared to high pressure 23/25's? I'm really wanting to go this route myself to give myself a ride that I can truly disregard the surface conditions. I was thinking Marathon Supremes, but maybe the Duremes are the way to go. Man I wish I had as much disposable income and time as you Will. Must be nice!
    The road surfaces are getting worse so it seems to me. The paved trails are very bumpy in places. High pressure 23/25 tires beat the hell out of my joints, hands, shoulders. Lowering pressure causes flats. The question is: What is the speed and energy penalty of a tire 25 mm at 120 PSI vs high quality 35 mm tire at 85 PSI on a typical American 100 mile road tour?
    I do not have the answer yet to that question but will aim to find out.
    The Duremes are very good on limestone with sandy and wet patches. I would not give up the good grip of those tires for limestone touring.
    Black top touring is another story and I will test for that.

    Regarding spending money on this activity.
    All the folks around me do golfing and spend much more money there than I can with biking.
    I am sure there are folks with low resources but some of us worked very long and hard for what we have. I worked 60 hours per week since age 14 and skipped (put into the bank) my vacations. That nearly killed me but I got smarter at age 50 and started to bike.
    BTW I am 68.

  8. #8
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,903
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by will dehne View Post
    BTW I am 68.
    68??? I hope that I'm that fast at 58!

    Really interesting point that the better tyres let you use the aerobars more on poor roads - I hadn't thought of that. Mostly because my brain can't cope with anybody being crazy enough to use aerobars on roads like that, you madman!

    What is the speed and energy penalty of a tire 25 mm at 120 PSI vs high quality 35 mm tire at 85 PSI on a typical American 100 mile road tour?
    At very high wattage 25s are faster because of reduced aero drag. But I don't think anyone can keep up that sort of wattage for 100 miles. At a fast touring pace my money is on the Duremes to come in slightly ahead of the 25s because the rider will be less beaten up. But you'll want the Duremes inflated to the top of their pressure range for tarmac.

    Re hydration and nutrition, I've heard these are excellent -

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/run/8/Inov...60031760/#more

    - a waist pack for hydration that really works (flow has been a problem for waist packs in the past). 2L of water and nutrients, but your back is still cool. You might ask the people in the racing forum which carb/protein gunk added to the water is best.

    And my back is much better since I realized the cause of the problem, thanks. I'm hoping to be back on the bike next week - probably running 42mm Extremes for my local single track. I'd have been out today except I managed to sprain a muscle in the sole of my FOOT, which I didn't even know was possible. It's so swollen that it makes it hard to even wear my crocs!

  9. #9
    .
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Hillsboro, Oregon
    My Bikes
    2010 Moots Psychlo-x ybb, 2013 Soma ES, 89 Trek 950
    Posts
    3,706
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by will dehne View Post
    I do not have the answer yet to that question but will aim to find out.
    The Duremes are very good on limestone with sandy and wet patches. I would not give up the good grip of those tires for limestone touring.
    Black top touring is another story and I will test for that.

    Regarding spending money on this activity.
    All the folks around me do golfing and spend much more money there than I can with biking.
    I am sure there are folks with low resources but some of us worked very long and hard for what we have. I worked 60 hours per week since age 14 and skipped (put into the bank) my vacations. That nearly killed me but I got smarter at age 50 and started to bike.
    BTW I am 68.
    Will, I'm looking forward to your reviews. I can understand what you're saying about it being your time to enjoy yourself. I'm starting now.

    Quote Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
    68??? I hope that I'm that fast at 58!
    Man, I wish I was that fast now. I'm only 41.
    Demented internet tail wagging imbicile.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    rockford, il
    My Bikes
    Trek 7700, C'dale R2000
    Posts
    2,646
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by knobster View Post
    Will, I'm looking forward to your reviews. I can understand what you're saying about it being your time to enjoy yourself. I'm starting now.



    Man, I wish I was that fast now. I'm only 41.
    The ability to bike with less effort came as I retired. I love to eat well and enjoy good red wine. Can not do that unless you burn calories. Biking for hours will do that. I do 3 hours minimum biking per day and often more. That allows me to eat and drink to the envie of our friends and my wife.
    BTW, I am 195# at 6' 1". That is not skinny.
    It is a lot of pleasure for a 68 year old guy to do 50 miles without strain on the engine. A 100 miles on limestone is always a challenge especially in Wisconsin going NW. The wind seems to come from there almost always. But even that is fun if you are fit.

    With 41 I was 240# and experienced symptoms of high stress like ears popping and blurred vision. I choose to start exercising and dieting rather than visiting doctors.
    That seemed to work for me.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    rockford, il
    My Bikes
    Trek 7700, C'dale R2000
    Posts
    2,646
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    [QUOTE=meanwhile;11049450]68??? I hope that I'm that fast at 58!

    Really interesting point that the better tyres let you use the aerobars more on poor roads - I hadn't thought of that. Mostly because my brain can't cope with anybody being crazy enough to use aerobars on roads like that, you madman!

    At very high wattage 25s are faster because of reduced aero drag. But I don't think anyone can keep up that sort of wattage for 100 miles. At a fast touring pace my money is on the Duremes to come in slightly ahead of the 25s because the rider will be less beaten up. But you'll want the Duremes inflated to the top of their pressure range for tarmac.
    ............................................................................
    .................................................................................................... .............................QUOTE]

    Meanwhile,
    In another thread you stated that CX bikes are more controlable because of the geometry.
    I will agree with that. Hitting a step in pavement or a pot hole (at 30 MPH or more) is life threatening with the Madone and 23 / 25 mm 120 PSI tires.
    Not so with the CX bike.
    Therefore one can use that controlability to use aerobars in lesser quality road conditions. An important advantage for CX bikes I think.
    BTW, the aerobars give me at least 5% energy savings vs hands on hoods. The difference to hands on drops is less and requires more study.
    My problem is that I can do aerobars forever but not drops.

    I repeated that test round trip again this afternoon. I made no attempt to set a record but biked hard. Came up with 43 miles in 140 minutes.
    I think it is safe to say that the Duremes require between 5% to 10% less energy then 35 mm Conti City Ride tires or Bontrager 35 mm tires.
    To narrow down that spread we need more tests.

  12. #12
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,903
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by will dehne View Post
    [
    Meanwhile,
    In another thread you stated that CX bikes are more controlable because of the geometry.
    Yes and no - road racers are more controllable in the sense they respond faster to rider input; CX bikes in the sense that they are less easily "distracted" by debris and pot holes. It might be best to say that racers are more agile and crossers more stable.

    I will agree with that. Hitting a step in pavement or a pot hole (at 30 MPH or more) is life threatening with the Madone and 23 / 25 mm 120 PSI tires.
    Not so with the CX bike.
    Therefore one can use that controlability to use aerobars in lesser quality road conditions. An important advantage for CX bikes I think.
    BTW, the aerobars give me at least 5% energy savings vs hands on hoods.
    Do you mean 5% measured on a power tap, or 5% faster? Because if the later the real saving is (1.05^3 -1)% - ie about 15%.

    The difference to hands on drops is less and requires more study.
    My problem is that I can do aerobars forever but not drops.
    I think aero bars are supposed to be faster than drops, but this isn't my area of semi-expertise - time trials and triathlons have never appealed to me.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    rockford, il
    My Bikes
    Trek 7700, C'dale R2000
    Posts
    2,646
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
    Yes and no - road racers are more controllable in the sense they respond faster to rider input; CX bikes in the sense that they are less easily "distracted" by debris and pot holes. It might be best to say that racers are more agile and crossers more stable.

    Do you mean 5% measured on a power tap, or 5% faster? Because if the later the real saving is (1.05^3 -1)% - ie about 15%.

    I think aero bars are supposed to be faster than drops, but this isn't my area of semi-expertise - time trials and triathlons have never appealed to me.
    Please forgive my "Genglish". I mean to say "safer" and used "controllable". I agree with what you say there.
    I do not have "a power tap". Therefore my statement regarding energy savings is conjecture based on my ability to go faster with my typical HR 130.
    My statement regarding aerobars is simple. I go on flat ground and keep HR constant and go from hoods to aerobars. Look at the speed. It is about 5% faster (minimum).

  14. #14
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,903
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by will dehne View Post
    Please forgive my "Genglish". I mean to say "safer" and used "controllable". I agree with what you say there.
    Thanks: I just wanted to nail this down for anyone googling for hints.

    I do not have "a power tap". Therefore my statement regarding energy savings is conjecture based on my ability to go faster with my typical HR 130.
    My statement regarding aerobars is simple. I go on flat ground and keep HR constant and go from hoods to aerobars. Look at the speed. It is about 5% faster (minimum).
    Yes, that's what I thought, Will. That's about a 15% reduction in drag profile - speed/energy used on aero are in a cube relationship.

  15. #15
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,903
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Interesting Dureme review:
    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/revie...ested=1#162308

    I have about 600 k on one Dureme tire and based on that limited experience I give the tire a 5 star rating. I obviously can't speak much to tread wear and overall longevity. I will rate several characteristics that are important to me and will try to answer any question folks might have. It goes without saying on CGOAB that others should add their comments and experiences. The Dureme certainly seems to be a likely tire consideration for many of the CGOAB riders judging from past reviews and forums about tires.
    Size: It is sold as 700-40 (622-42) and it calipers out on my Mavic A319 rims at 40.5 mm. I don't know why, but it is the old French system, which is still the manufacturers' standard. 5 stars
    Rolling resistance: I only have my subjective road experience to qualify (not quantify) this aspect. Comparing it to my two other wide tires the Schwalbe Extreme (40 mm) and the Continental Travel Contact (37 mm) it rolls easily. 5 stars


    Tracking and cornering: I put it through some down hill corners at speed with the Dureme on the front and the Travel Contact on the rear. There was a huge different in the tracking angles with the TC trailing off at a disconcerting angle. Exchanging the Travel Contact with the Extreme on the rear the tracking difference was much less and quite acceptable. With the Dureme on the rear and a Panaracer Ribmo 32 semi-slick (an excellent cornering tire) on the front the balance between front and rear tires were good. 5 stars


    Rough roads: The Dureme has that big balloon tire feel. Small and medium size potholes and cracks in the pavement give me little notice or concern. My plan is to use the Dureme as the rear tire on rough pavement and on narrow roads with soft shoulders where I may have to dive off the road for safety reasons and need predictable flotation. 5 stars


    Off paved road: I was sure this would be the Dureme's weakest suit. In these conditions it will be the front tire with the Extreme on the rear. With this set up I rode an uphill gravel and dirt road in Portland, after several days of heavy rain. I could not ask for better response. Then I rode off the trail into deep oozing mud and clay mixed with ivy vines and small tree branches and roots. Up hill the Dureme tracked with assurance as it sunk into the mud and rose up over the vines and sticks. The Extreme was slipping and barely pushing the bike forward, but I never lost steering. (As a side note, for a multipurpose dirt tire the Extreme did quite well in the mud.) Both tires cleared the mud out of their treads quickly. Going back down the same trail the Dureme did great on the dirt and gravel. On the mud it was dicey and at one point it slipped out from under me with mud over the rims. That is a compromise I am willing to make for not having to carry two Extremes on tour. 4 stars


    Puncture resistance and over all damage resistance: Unknown but probably very good. The core of the tire appears to be identical to the Extreme. I've not had a puncture on either the Dureme or Extreme.
    Purchased from Wallingford Bicycle Parts for $66.00.


    In summary I was looking for a do all tire, a folding spare for the open road, a balloon tire for back road comfort and safety, and sturdy front dirt tire for US Forest Service type roads. And all that plus being relatively light weight. It seems to do it all.
    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/revie...age=1&nested=0

    Schwalbe Marathon Extreme - 4 stars ****After putting approximately 1,000 kilometers on the SME during my most recent tour I feel I can make a few comments on their characteristics. I hadn't intended to put that much distance on them but a tire failure of my rear road tire made it necessary. I give them four stars and that rating is based on how closely they meet the advertised characteristics and how they filled my personal riding needs. I was torn between giving them four stars and three stars, but was hoping for five stars when the package arrived at my home. They earned the forth star by being the only tire on the market that met all my basic criteria. Relatively light weight, durable, folding, good off-road capabilities, the largest size my bike can handle, and at least fair performance on paved roads were the must haves.


    Size accuracy - **
    Despite the universal acceptance of ETRTO/ISO tire sizing I think most riders know actual size of a tire is still a guessing game. According to ISO standards a bike tire can be +/- 3 mm and still be within acceptable size limits. Nonetheless the Extreme is the flagship world touring tire of the premiere bicycle tire manufacturer in the world. The most advanced and stable materials are advertised. For a $78.00 tire I didn't expect a tire 2 mm under the stated size. It measured 40 mm wide and 39 mm high.


    Tracking - ****
    On both the front and rear the tires tracked well. They are not as crisp as a quality road racing tire or even a good road touring tire, but they track straight with little wandering. On rare occasions the rear tire would catch an uneven break in the road and take an unexpected short hop to one side or the other before coming back into line.
    On dirt and very rough pavement they tracked very well.


    Cornering - ***
    The round profile and even tread pattern give the Extreme much better than expected cornering characteristics, but they are not high performance road tires. On two occasions, the rear tire broke loose while braking on a down hill corner.


    Rolling resistance - ***
    They are big tires with an aggressive dirt tread. I could feel the increase resistance and see it in my daily distance and max speed. I was surprised when I did a down hill coasting test, the Extreme had less resistance than the 37-622 Continental Travel Contact. The TC is actually 34 mm wide and has a smooth center section. I repeated the test three times to make sure.


    Road noise - *
    They are really loud on paved roads. I was past by thirty two wheel Canadian B-trains that made less tire noise. At fifty kph they literally scream. On dirt this is not a problem.

    Mud - ****
    They handle mud well and clear out quickly.


    Tire wear - ****
    I measured the wear when I got home and they lost about 20% of the center tread depth. Most of the time was on paved roads and that would equate to about 5,000 kilometers of road life. That seem pretty good to me for a knobby tire. I am sure on dirt the center tread would wear more slowly.


    Flats - *****
    Not even a sign of a glass nick or a cut. They seem to be about as bullet proof as you can get.
    And there's a picture here that I think allows to see the tread of both tyres much more clearly than the computer generated images on Schwalbe's website -

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wallblo...16896/sizes/o/
    Last edited by meanwhile; 07-07-10 at 05:39 PM.

  16. #16
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,903
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm now testing those Extremes myself, in 40mm. My very early impressions, posted in case anyone is desperate to buy a general purpose tyre -

    - Surprisingly good on a wide range of dirt. Hardpack, gravel, even quite soft stuff. Not a mud racing tyre by any means - it lacks the sharp cornering fins (these would ruin road handling) but keeps a decent amount of traction if ridden sanely. Very good on semi-mud - the sort of stuff that isn't liquid but clings and splashes when you ride or step on it. Traction seems very predictible - for a given surface it is what it is, with no great fall offs for angle or what have you. Which makes sense looking at the uniform tyre profile. I like this characteristic a lot.

    - Bounces over tree roots and small rocks nicely - the grip engages nicely to provide stability. Fun to ride down steps and off kerbs. When you hit something that needs bounce, the 40mm Extreme feels like a much bigger tyre than it is. I'm guessing this is because of the very supple tyre carcass.

    - Very acceptable road tyre. Especially on wet roads. The rubber is super grippy; imo the guy who got the rear to break lose while braking and turning at the same time simply used too much rear brake. I'm not surprised by the rolling resistance tests above: I think RR for these tyres would be better than average for pure slicks - you just don't feel like you're going that fast because of the high degree of suspension.

    I probably respond extra positively to them because they handle my 230lb weight well offroad and I like that handling predictibility referred to above. They'd be good commuting tyres for towns with poor roads, lots of tram tracks, etc.

    Edited to add:

    Now I've had more time to experiment with these tyres I have a suspicion that there is something funny about rolling resistance - it seems to go up more than it should on gravel. Admittedly gravel is always on energy sucker, so I could easily be wrong. I've order a Dureme for the rear (I'll keep an Extreme as the control tyre at the front, BMX style) and compare. Maybe I have the pressure wrong?

    Otoh, I continue to be amazed at the traction.
    Last edited by meanwhile; 04-20-11 at 05:21 AM.

  17. #17
    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    England
    My Bikes
    2009 Specialized Rockhopper Comp Disc, 2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
    Posts
    3,987
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've been using a Marathon Extreme as my rear tyre for a while now (it replaced a Marathon Plus that was badly worn), and a Marathon Plus on the front.

    I didn't notice any speed penalty on the road compared to the Marathon Plus - I suspect the more aggressive tread pattern was offset by the much lighter weight - IIRC the Extreme is about 4-500g lighter than the Plus. In the mud they offer a fair amount of grip but in a lot of mud they tend to get clogged quickly. They are much better than the Plus in light to moderate mud and IMO match the Plus at just about everything else. OK, you can't bang thumb tacks into them the way you can with a Plus, but, you know...

    On the road they do hum quite nicely. Personally I find over about 20mph the wind noise in my ears drowns the tyre noise but it can be fun to turn my head slightly just to hear the drone. I've taken them over 30mph a few times and wouldn't say they scream at all, the noise is louder but then so is the wind noise. When accelerating I often find they make a slightly odd pulsing sound if my pedalling isn't entirely uniform and leads to surges of acceleration with each downstroke rather than a smooth acceleration. It's to be expected - the sound on the road simply coming as they turn at varying speeds, it just caught me off guard the first time.

    My tyres are on a mountain bike rather than a cyclocross bike but I'd imagine you'd have very similar observations on any bike with the same tyres. I'm about 250-260 and they cope just fine with me.

  18. #18
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,903
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by contango View Post
    I've been using a Marathon Extreme as my rear tyre for a while now (it replaced a Marathon Plus that was badly worn), and a Marathon Plus on the front.

    I didn't notice any speed penalty on the road compared to the Marathon Plus - I suspect the more aggressive tread pattern was offset by the much lighter weight - IIRC the Extreme is about 4-500g lighter than the Plus.
    I think the low rolling resistance rubber is probably a more important factor - tyre weight shouldn't really influence speed.

    On the road they do hum quite nicely. Personally I find over about 20mph the wind noise in my ears drowns the tyre noise but it can be fun to turn my head slightly just to hear the drone. I've taken them over 30mph a few times and wouldn't say they scream at all, the noise is louder but then so is the wind noise.
    Thank you - I was just wondering about this. I'm incredibly un-noticing of anything except road/trail and traffic when I ride. I had no idea that my Muds made road noise until someone else pointed out that on the gravel we were riding my bike sounded like a Panzer column. I don't even notice canti squeal until I start to think about tuning my brakes. I'll listen for noise on my ride tonight.

    You're on an MTB - how do you find the suspension effect of the tyres? Do you share my impression that you get a bit more of it than you'd expect from a 40mm? Although I suppose this might be hard to judge if you have a suspension fork, which you probably do.
    Last edited by meanwhile; 04-04-11 at 05:00 AM.

  19. #19
    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    England
    My Bikes
    2009 Specialized Rockhopper Comp Disc, 2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
    Posts
    3,987
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
    I think the low rolling resistance rubber is probably a more important factor - tyre weight shouldn't really influence speed.
    Everybody says rotational weight makes a huge difference and if you're turning 500g it takes much less effort than turning 1000g. If the same force means more acceleration then it follows I'd go faster with the same force.

    Thank you - I was just wondering about this. I'm incredibly un-noticing of anything except road/trail and traffic when I ride. I had no idea that my Muds made road noise until someone else pointed out that on the gravel we were riding my bike sounded like a Panzer column. I don't even notice canti squeal until I start to think about tuning my brakes. I'll listen for noise on my ride tonight.
    A cycling buddy didn't take very long to agree with my comment that my tyres made an audible humming sound, but from the perspective of the rider I usually find the wind noise is louder. Like you I tend to notice wind and traffic noise.

    You're on an MTB - how do you find the suspension effect of the tyres? Do you share my impression that you get a bit more of it than you'd expect from a 40mm? Although I suppose this might be hard to judge if you have a suspension fork, which you probably do.
    The Extreme is on the back so no suspension there for me. I've only ever used a Plus and an Extreme on the back and the Plus was before I felt confident to do much that banged the back around too much. Even now I'm not into what you might call hardcore MTB stuff - most of my riding is on roads and trails with occasional jaunts through mud and stones and stuff. The Extreme does feel like it cushions in a way the Plus didn't but I couldn't say how much of that is due to the fact it doesn't have a half inch of plastic lining all around it. Most of the time I keep them about 60psi for reduced rolling resistance, I'd imagine (but can't say for sure) that a slightly reduced pressure would give them a lot more suspension than the Plus tyres had, again because of the lack of plastic lining.

  20. #20
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,903
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by contango View Post
    Everybody says rotational weight makes a huge difference
    No, "everyone" doesn't! Anyone who designs tyres or has an engineering or physics degree - or who understood high school physics - knows that this is nonsense. (My father managed a tyre factory; I have a physics degree.)

    It can be proven to be nonsense with a simple experiment too. Lift your bike's wheel off the ground, spin the pedals until the speedo reads 20, then time the interval until it reads zero. Repeat with heavier and lighter wheelsets. Or add some weights fixed firmly to the rim.

    and if you're turning 500g it takes much less effort than turning 1000g. If the same force means more acceleration then it follows I'd go faster with the same force.
    Ok: you don't understand Newton's Laws. ***Mass resists ACCELERATION, not VELOCITY.*** The retarding forces you have to overcome while pedalling at a constant speed are rolling resistance and aero resistance.

    Don't feel bad: until 400 years ago everyone made the mistake that you're making. The human brain is wired this way.

    There's a reasonable thread here:

    http://forums.roadbikereview.com/sho...d.php?t=132875

    A wiki page:

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance

    And you could read the MIT Press Book "Bicycling Science".

    The Extreme is on the back so no suspension there for me. I've only ever used a Plus and an Extreme on the back and the Plus was before I felt confident to do much that banged the back around too much. Even now I'm not into what you might call hardcore MTB stuff - most of my riding is on roads and trails with occasional jaunts through mud and stones and stuff. The Extreme does feel like it cushions in a way the Plus didn't but I couldn't say how much of that is due to the fact it doesn't have a half inch of plastic lining all around it. Most of the time I keep them about 60psi for reduced rolling resistance, I'd imagine (but can't say for sure) that a slightly reduced pressure would give them a lot more suspension than the Plus tyres had, again because of the lack of plastic lining.
    Actually, the best pressure for low RR depends on the surface - higher on smooth tarmac, lower on rough stuff. This is because high reduces hystereis energy (the energy needed to bed the tyre carcass) but low reduces losses to vertical travel of the bike and rider (i.e. energy lost lifting the bike over small bumps.) Schwalbe have some papers on this on their site.

    Btw - what do you have on your front wheel? You might want to put an Extreme there if you have a slick there at the moment: most of the grip for braking and turning comes from the there.

  21. #21
    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    England
    My Bikes
    2009 Specialized Rockhopper Comp Disc, 2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
    Posts
    3,987
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
    No, "everyone" doesn't! Anyone who designs tyres or has an engineering or physics degree - or who understood high school physics - knows that this is nonsense. (My father managed a tyre factory; I have a physics degree.)

    It can be proven to be nonsense with a simple experiment too. Lift your bike's wheel off the ground, spin the pedals until the speedo reads 20, then time the interval until it reads zero. Repeat with heavier and lighter wheelsets. Or add some weights fixed firmly to the rim.

    Ok: you don't understand Newton's Laws. ***Mass resists ACCELERATION, not VELOCITY.*** The retarding forces you have to overcome while pedalling at a constant speed are rolling resistance and aero resistance.

    Don't feel bad: until 400 years ago everyone made the mistake that you're making. The human brain is wired this way.
    OK, bad use of the word "everyone" on my part.

    When I was asking about whether saving 500g on the weight of a tyre would actually make a lot of difference when compared to a 20-odd kg bike and a 100-odd kg rider the almost universal answer I got was that it would make a significant difference. Honestly I didn't give a whole lot of thought to it other than thinking it sounded surprising that it should make a lot of difference.

    Using F=ma was to figure that if m is cut in half then the same F would result in double the a. Ironically it was thinking terms of F=ma that left me surprised at the claim that a loss in m of well under 1% would actually make any appreciable difference (and a difference the other way when I figured that losing the near-bombproof puncture protection meant I wanted to carry a spare tube and a pump).

    Sounds like it's worth actually taking some time to look at it in more detail, thanks for the prod to reconsider what seems to be a very widely held belief.

    Actually, the best pressure for low RR depends on the surface - higher on smooth tarmac, lower on rough stuff. This is because high reduces hystereis energy (the energy needed to bed the tyre carcass) but low reduces losses to vertical travel of the bike and rider (i.e. energy lost lifting the bike over small bumps.) Schwalbe have some papers on this on their site.
    A significant part of the riding I do is on hard and fairly smooth surfaces - I often think it's worth pumping the tyres for the sections of road to get me to a trailhead, then softening them for the trail and pumping them again for the ride home. Sometimes I remember to do that, just not very often. So again, apologies for an incomplete sentence in that I should have said "low rolling resistance on smoother surfaces, where I do most of my riding". when I first bought the Extreme I ran it about 70psi, now I usually leave it around 60 which seems like a better tradeoff for the balance of riding I do.

    Btw - what do you have on your front wheel? You might want to put an Extreme there if you have a slick there at the moment: most of the grip for braking and turning comes from the there.
    At the moment the Marathon Plus I had put on when the bike was new. It's got a slick zigzag down the middle with nobbly bits at the side. The idea is that it offers little rolling resistance on tarmac and on softer surfaces as the zigzag sinks in the nobbly bits offer some traction. I've never really been aware of issues at the front, the main issue I've had was spinning the rear wheel. That could be down to a suboptimal tyre or lack of skill on my part - I'd willingly accept either being the cause.

    When the Plus goes to meet its maker I'll most likely look at a Dureme or another Extreme. I've been happy with the Extreme on the back and read a few things about a Dureme at the front and Extreme at the back being a good combination. But then I read a few things about how important rotational mass was, so I'll need to fine tune my "believing stuff on the internet" filters

  22. #22
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,903
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by contango View Post
    OK, bad use of the word "everyone" on my part.

    When I was asking about whether saving 500g on the weight of a tyre would actually make a lot of difference when compared to a 20-odd kg bike and a 100-odd kg rider the almost universal answer I got was that it would make a significant difference.
    Well, "they" were wrong! As long as the tyres are otherwise the same (so say a steel and kevlar Extreme of the same width) tyre mass won't alter maximum speed. (However, if the tyre was made heavier by making the rubber thicker - or adding an armoured anti-puncture belt - then it would be slower, because rolling resistance on a smooth road comes from the effort need to keep bending rubber to re-make the contact patch as the tyre rotates, and this increases as the rubber gets thicker.)

    Using F=ma was to figure that if m is cut in half then the same F would result in double the a. Ironically it was thinking terms of F=ma that left me surprised at the claim that a loss in m of well under 1% would actually make any appreciable difference (and a difference the other way when I figured that losing the near-bombproof puncture protection meant I wanted to carry a spare tube and a pump).
    You'd be correct to be surprised as your %age is correct. However it applies to accelerating the bike, not to maintaining a constant speed! Again, about 90% of the human race find this surprising. But think of a flywheel on very smooth bearings - will it spin for a longer or shorter time if the mass is increased???

    A significant part of the riding I do is on hard and fairly smooth surfaces - I often think it's worth pumping the tyres for the sections of road to get me to a trailhead, then softening them for the trail and pumping them again for the ride home.
    That's probably correct... as long as you have a good pump!

    At the moment the Marathon Plus I had put on when the bike was new. It's got a slick zigzag down the middle with nobbly bits at the side. The idea is that it offers little rolling resistance on tarmac and on softer surfaces as the zigzag sinks in the nobbly bits offer some traction. I've never really been aware of issues at the front, the main issue I've had was spinning the rear wheel. That could be down to a suboptimal tyre or lack of skill on my part - I'd willingly accept either being the cause.

    When the Plus goes to meet its maker I'll most likely look at a Dureme or another Extreme. I've been happy with the Extreme on the back and read a few things about a Dureme at the front and Extreme at the back being a good combination. But then I read a few things about how important rotational mass was, so I'll need to fine tune my "believing stuff on the internet" filters
    The classic combination BMX racers use is a tread at the front for control and slick at the back for low resistance. As a general rule, any time for you need tread for propulsion, you need it at least as much for control. *However* this is a very general rule - it becomes truer as you ride more aggressively. If you need tread to climb, and then you're coming down slowly, much less so. So an Extreme at the front would let you descend and corner more aggressively, if that's useful.
    Last edited by meanwhile; 04-04-11 at 10:15 AM.

  23. #23
    Have bike, will travel Barrettscv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Windy City
    My Bikes
    A road bike for every purpose
    Posts
    8,943
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    A good discussion that deserves a bump.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •