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  1. #26
    Senior Member swc7916's Avatar
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    These are the cantilevers on my tandems. They are the best and easiest-to-adjust I have ever used.



    (This photo was taken when the bike was just built and the brakes were not adjusted yet.)
    2011 Rodriguez Rohloff tandem
    2008 Rodriguez Rainier Lite sport/touring

  2. #27
    Senior Member GrayJay's Avatar
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    Looking at pictures of the Avid Ultimates (Velonews review), it looks like the narrow position is around 30° cantilever angle (As defined by circleacycles paper) and the wide position is around 88° (arms angled 12° above the horizontal line between the mounting post) so a difference of 58° between the two postions. These "measeurements" are just from pictures and probably represent resting brake position the more meaningfull measurements would be taken when pad contacts the rim so are probably a bit narrower. Actual angle would also depend on individual placement of the cantilever mounting stud on the frame (narrower width between post yields increase in cantilever angle).
    Looks like thar PA arm length is around 1.3X the PR length.
    Rough calculation of the mechanical advantage would be around 3.2 for the narrow and 2.1 with the wide stance (with low saddle cable) but the MA of the narrow stance setup falls off really fast as the brakes are actuated and the cable hangar is raised. Avid says that narrow stance is 20% more braking force.

  3. #28
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swc7916 View Post
    These are the cantilevers on my tandems. They are the best and easiest-to-adjust I have ever used.
    I've heard of these - they're Rodriguez Elephants???

  4. #29
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayJay View Post
    Looking at pictures of the Avid Ultimates (Velonews review), it looks like the narrow position is around 30° cantilever angle (As defined by circleacycles paper) and the wide position is around 88° (arms angled 12° above the horizontal line between the mounting post) so a difference of 58° between the two postions. These "measeurements" are just from pictures and probably represent resting brake position the more meaningfull measurements would be taken when pad contacts the rim so are probably a bit narrower. Actual angle would also depend on individual placement of the cantilever mounting stud on the frame (narrower width between post yields increase in cantilever angle).
    Looks like thar PA arm length is around 1.3X the PR length.
    Rough calculation of the mechanical advantage would be around 3.2 for the narrow and 2.1 with the wide stance (with low saddle cable) but the MA of the narrow stance setup falls off really fast as the brakes are actuated and the cable hangar is raised. Avid says that narrow stance is 20% more braking force.
    Thanks - didn't Zinn like these a lot? The price of a pair (ie enough for one wheel) of ASUs in the UK is an insane $145, btw!

  5. #30
    Team Water Andy_K's Avatar
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    A couple of minor editing comments...

    Quote Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
    2. Single speeds and bar con bikes can get easy compatibility by using v-brake road levers
    Special v-brake compatible drop bar levers are available. These will work directly with standard v-brakes and disc brakes. These levers do NOT include shifter controllers, but if you're riding singlespeed or with bar cons they may be a good choice.
    This is misplaced in the mechanical advantage discussion. It should be moved to the V-brake section.

    Quote Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
    1. The ultimate reference and other useful links
    ...
    Squeal and judder:

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/...o-cross_101807
    You've got this in there twice.


    Also, there's nothing on link wires vs. straddle cables in the current main post.

  6. #31
    Team Water Andy_K's Avatar
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    It occurred to me this morning that a section on brake levers and hand position might be beneficial, particularly for people with small hands. Here's my first try at it. Pictures might help here.

    X. Brake levers and hand position

    As their name implies, brake levers use leverage to translate hand force into braking force. Your actual leverage will vary depending on where you squeeze the lever. For instance, if your hands are on the brake hoods, you may be applying your hand force very close to the pivot point of the brake lever, particularly if you have small hands. This will result in much less braking force than you would have if you squeeze the lever closer to the end, as you would when riding in the drops. Much of the perceived difference in braking power between V-brakes and cantilever brakes may be attributable to this difference in leverage.

    Cross levers provide another option which allows you to utilize greater leverage than you may get when braking from the hoods, while still allowing an upright riding position. You will have better control over the bike, particularly at high speeds, when braking from the drops than when using cross levers, but for some situations such as coming to a stop in traffic, the cross levers offer an excellent alternative.

    If you have small hands, you may have difficulty reaching the brake levers when riding in the drops. Shimano STI levers come with a reach adjustment pad that can be used to set up the brake lever closer to the bars. This pad effectively reduces the travel of the lever by having it partially pulled in the rest position, so it offers no advantage when you are braking from the hoods, but it can help with braking from the drops.

  7. #32
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    one addition to the Type of calipers , is a category long a part of classical Mechanics,
    where the fulcrum, or pivot is..

    Type 1 .. Mafac and many subsequent L shaped calipers,
    the work (brake pad) and the effort arm (ends where the cable fittings are)
    are on opposite sides of the pivot..
    U brakes are also of this type lever.

    Type 2 .. V and low profile calipers , the pivot is on the end,
    the work being done is between the fulcrum, and the end of the effort arm .

  8. #33
    Senior Member nayr497's Avatar
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    This is awesome! Never come across it but wish I had read it before my first season of cross racing

    I have a question about brake pads - how do I tell (by looking? or do I need to pull them?) what type of brake pads I need? I'd like to replace them on each of my cross bikes.

    One set of brakes is the Tektro Oryx with stock pads. Here is that brake:
    http://www.jensonusa.com/Tektro-Oryx

    The other brakes are some FSA SL-Ks. Here they are:
    http://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...s.php?id=32394

    I'm trying to figure out which type of Kool Stop pads/holders to go with. Smooth:
    http://www.biketiresdirect.com/produ...st-pad-holders

    Or threaded:
    http://www.biketiresdirect.com/produ...st-pad-holders

    From looking at the brakes and the photos of the holders/pads it would appear that both are threaded. But, I'm not positive. Sorry, I'm sure this is an dumb question but I don't have much experience with cantilever brakes, but I am getting better!

    On a related note, a dude I know who used to work as a mechanic and knows his stuff told me I'd need a cross/connecting wire for the rear FSA brake made by FSA. He couldn't really tell me why. I needed one before a race and tried just any old brake cable. It worked and has been working just fine.

    Was he just trying to give me a hard time or could there be some merit to this?
    Deda Newton Anatomic bars/40cm
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  9. #34
    Senior Member nayr497's Avatar
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    Any help, anyone?
    Deda Newton Anatomic bars/40cm
    Pls. PM me if interested, trying clear out parts bin!

  10. #35
    Team Beer Cynikal's Avatar
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    You want the threaded style pad for both those brakes. Get the short ones like you posted and not the longer vbrake type. They will clear the fork blade better.
    I'm not one for fawning over bicycles, but I do believe that our bikes communicate with us, and what this bike is saying is, "You're an idiot." BikeSnobNYC

  11. #36
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Yea there are road insert, short tail pad holders for Cross setups
    with V brake type bolts on mounts .. to have the spherical washer set going on.

    that is what these are: http://www.biketiresdirect.com/produ...st-pad-holders

  12. #37
    Team Beer Cynikal's Avatar
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    My only gripe with the koolstop holders is that the bolt is too short. I had to replace mine with longer bolts.
    I'm not one for fawning over bicycles, but I do believe that our bikes communicate with us, and what this bike is saying is, "You're an idiot." BikeSnobNYC

  13. #38
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Before the big Taiwan factories picked up the idea and mass conmsumer-ized it
    the Race mechanics just sawed off the long tails of the Available pads.

  14. #39
    derailleurs are overrated bigbenaugust's Avatar
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    I love this thread. I think I got Z-link cables a touch too long for my Tektro Oryx cantis.
    --Ben
    Carrboro Bike Coalition - putting the "bike" in "CARrboro" :)
    2011 Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, 2009 Motobecane Fantom CX
    Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014)
    Current Linux Usage (by machine): Arch: I openSUSE: III

  15. #40
    Senior Member nayr497's Avatar
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    Cool, thanks for the help folks!
    Deda Newton Anatomic bars/40cm
    Pls. PM me if interested, trying clear out parts bin!

  16. #41
    Senior Member nayr497's Avatar
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    Has anyone tried the Frogglegs cantis? Hard to find much info on them...or anyone who has even heard of them or tried them.

    http://www.probikekit.com/us/compone...dard-pads.html

    I have some Tektro Oryx cantis on a cross bike and they aren't so great. But...could just be the stock pads, which have worn extremely fast. I either need to replace the pads or I could just try the Frogglegs. Those brakes + pads would be about the same price as just Kool Stop pads + holders. But I might be back to square 1 if those stock pads are junk.

    I wonder if it's a lateral move to go from the Oryx to the Frogglegs? Thoughts?
    Deda Newton Anatomic bars/40cm
    Pls. PM me if interested, trying clear out parts bin!

  17. #42
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    TRP copied the Empella Frog legs, Their EuroX, now from TW.
    http://www.cyclocrossworld.com/cyclocross-brakes
    Note the shape, face of edge towards center, .. convex arch..
    I tried the originals , but since my fork bosses
    were too close together , I re-sold them.

    found the Belgian Spooky calipers, close out, they lost market share too.
    like old Mafac/Modolo Cantilevers
    their concave shape lets me rotate the shoe down,
    so they work with my old fork.
    the Ridley 4ZA may have worked too..

    Note you are changing to a lower MA caliper, benefit is:
    it will let you run with more clearance, pad to rim,
    for muddy courses. before the muck builds up..
    Last edited by fietsbob; 05-24-12 at 11:10 AM.

  18. #43
    Senior Member GrayJay's Avatar
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    I recently got some older 4ZA branded cantilevers, exact same design as Empella Frog legs & EuroX. What suprized me about the design that all these high-end CX brakes utilizing pads with unthreaded post is that the brake has no provision for adjusting pad toe other than bending parts. There are unthreaded post brake pad holders that utilize removeable pads and which have provision for toe adjustment built into the pad holder, probably a very good idea if you are using this style brake, dont cheap out and get the lower end models that come without adjustable & replaceable pad holds.
    Other alternative option for wide stance brakes to consider are those like the Kore Kross and Teckto 720 which use threaded post pads and are easily adjustable for toe with concave washers.

  19. #44
    Team Beer Cynikal's Avatar
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    If you want those brakes buy these pads to go with them. I did this with a set of orgin8's cantis and they worked great.

    http://store.velo-orange.com/index.p...ree-shoes.html

    Not bad for $18.
    I'm not one for fawning over bicycles, but I do believe that our bikes communicate with us, and what this bike is saying is, "You're an idiot." BikeSnobNYC

  20. #45
    Senior Member nayr497's Avatar
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    Ah, so now I realize the Frogglegs have an unthreaded brake pad post. Is there a pro/con of threaded/non-threaded?

    I'm trying to figure out the best (and most cost-effective) way to improve my braking situation. I have some Tektro Oryx brakes on one of my cross bikes, used mainly for around-town/rain day road rides. I'll likely never race it, as I have a cx race bike. Mud clearance not much of a consideration.

    The stock pads are well worn. I'd either like to get some Kool Stop pads/holders or the Frogglegs. The price would be about the same for either. I just wonder if they Oryx are so bad that I should consider new brakes. They're paired with Shimano 5700 shifters. The set-up seems to be pretty good, just really poor stock pads. (but never used them with nice pads, so really can't be sure)

    Good to know, Cynikal regarding the pads. I guess right now I'd rather just get new pads or get the Frogglegs. But if the FL pads are awful, I'm back to square one.
    Deda Newton Anatomic bars/40cm
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  21. #46
    Senior Member nayr497's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayJay View Post
    I recently got some older 4ZA branded cantilevers, exact same design as Empella Frog legs & EuroX. What suprized me about the design that all these high-end CX brakes utilizing pads with unthreaded post is that the brake has no provision for adjusting pad toe other than bending parts. There are unthreaded post brake pad holders that utilize removeable pads and which have provision for toe adjustment built into the pad holder, probably a very good idea if you are using this style brake, dont cheap out and get the lower end models that come without adjustable & replaceable pad holds.
    Other alternative option for wide stance brakes to consider are those like the Kore Kross and Teckto 720 which use threaded post pads and are easily adjustable for toe with concave washers.
    In reading back through this it seems that you are saying the Frogglegs are unthreaded and don't in fact have any provision for toeing in. And the pads/posts are not replaceable. Hmm, since my Oryx seem to work okay and I know they fit my fork/bike...maybe at this point it would be best to just grab some of the nice Kool Stop pads.

    And, this bike isn't raced or really even ridden too hard, but some road rides in the rain. Would still like the brakes to work well, but not exactly a high-perfomance bike or anything.
    Deda Newton Anatomic bars/40cm
    Pls. PM me if interested, trying clear out parts bin!

  22. #47
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Back in the day of Mafac cantilevers, and Modolos, for toe in,
    we would just bend the post in relation to the shoe holder..

    TRP also has an in-place angle adjustable brake shoe ,
    though that VO one is cheaper. (+shipping)

    Mafac cantilevers, with the Plain post , work well on touring forks
    which have the bosses set up fairly closely spaced.

    Shoe/post gets rotated downward, relative to the part,
    as the posts get closer together.

    Built a touring bike frame and fork in the 70's
    The first brake adjustment
    was where I put the brake bosses on the frame.
    Last edited by fietsbob; 08-31-12 at 11:39 AM.

  23. #48
    Senior Member GrayJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nayr497 View Post
    In reading back through this it seems that you are saying the Frogglegs are unthreaded and don't in fact have any provision for toeing in. And the pads/posts are not replaceable. Hmm, since my Oryx seem to work okay and I know they fit my fork/bike...maybe at this point it would be best to just grab some of the nice Kool Stop pads.

    And, this bike isn't raced or really even ridden too hard, but some road rides in the rain. Would still like the brakes to work well, but not exactly a high-perfomance bike or anything.
    Wide angle brakes (Such as frogleggs) inherently have less mechanical advantage than a narrow angle brake such as the Oryx. The post/pad is definitly a replaceable item apart from the cantilever arm. With most cheaper pads, the post is permanently attached to the pad and you just replace the entire post+pad. Nicer systems use cartridge holders to hold the replaceble pad, re-use the post, some of these have the benefit of toe-adjustment.

    The main benefit of wide angle brakes is better mud clearance because the pads can be setup further from the rim. Unless you are racing mud or just prefer the classic look of wide angles, I wouldnt necessarily recommend them in order to improve braking. If setup with good pads and proper (low) position for the yoke cable, your Oryx brakes will be able to generate more braking force.

    With threaded post cantilevers (Using concave/convex mounting washers) it is usually easier to adjust pad toe, possible benefit of untreaded post brakes are perhaps a bit easier to make compensations for pad wear.
    Last edited by GrayJay; 06-05-12 at 04:30 PM.

  24. #49
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    A story I found on the background of the brakes I just bought, typically a late adopter,
    my wish was for aluminum, but Carbon was all i could find, on close out..
    http://www.cxmagazine.com/spooky-bra...-van-der-burgt.

    the Toe-In is resolved by TRP's Adjust in place Brake shoes/ plain post, holders..
    bolt runs through the post and there is a curved face that allows the shoe to be angled..
    Last edited by fietsbob; 02-10-13 at 04:47 PM.

  25. #50
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
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    This will probably be my last cantilever post after years of a close relationship with them - I just picked up a little used 94 Zaskar, one of the all time great hardtail mtbs, and the ankle/foot problem stopping from cross racing has only got worse, so I'm selling my crosser to someone who can make real use of it...

    The Zaskar is designed for vees and I'd have to mess about quite a bit to install cantis, so I researched vee brakes for mtbs. What did I find? The best lever available is probably the Avid Speed Dial 7 because

    Our patented Speed Dial® leverage adjustment system lets you determine the perfect balance between power and modulation of your linear pull rim or mechanical disc brakes. We’ve put the ability to change the cable’s leverage point into an easy-to-adjust knob on the front of the lever. By turning the Speed Dial® knob, you can precisely choose the feel you want


    ..I.e. they've added a feature to the lever that emulates what you can do by adjust a cantilever straddle...

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