Magilla Gorilla

At the Sebring ultra race Team Bacchetta riders seemed to dominate the standings.
Jim Kern on his Aero did 516 miles in 24 hours non drafting.
In the drafting 24 hour cat. a "B" rider did over 470 miles.
And in the 12 hour event "B" founder John Schlitter and one other team rider "Billy wolff" did 269.5 miles.
hey lets give team "B" there due even though this is a lowracer site.
Lowracers have no advantage on an ultra at speeds of 21 mph for the duration. Highracers have a great advantage over lowracers with there bigger wheel diameter at relitively slow speeds that happen in ultra's.
Things are going down much as I predicted that they would in 2002 when I first showed up in Chi-town for a ride. No one wants to talk about it but I certianly will....

MG

jeff-o

In other news, Magilla still has that nagging chip on his shoulder.

Congrats to Team Bacchetta, BTW.

Mars

Do you have a link to these results?

Magilla Gorilla

I would invite you to try and knock the chip off.

I think your a first class jerk with that post. I show up at races and rallyes and I would bet you would not be so smug in person.
Anyway, I have a new blog up you should read it. You just might learn something....

MG

Magilla Gorilla

I had the links page from John Schlitter but it does not work anymore.
Give me a little time and I will post it.
You will be impressed....

MG

Velokurt

Recumbents hold all top places at Sebring

BlazingPedals

Here is an article from the UMCA web page:
https://www.ultracycling.com/results/sebring2006.html

Nice blitz by the recumbent riders! To me, this proves that recumbents ridden by competitive riders can produce competitive results. Further speculation as to the supposed superiority of one recumbent over another is pointless and unjustified.

Magilla Gorilla

John,

I must disagree with you on this one. Dual 26 bents at the reletively slower speeds encountered in Ultra events are faster with there bigger wheels then lowracers. I don't mean to ruffel your feathers but I just think that the more we see at Ultra races the more that this will become a fact.
Now here is something to think about John. In '03 Rich Pinto and John Schlitter and Myself were up at the Stevens point rally. Alan Ariail had his tricked out Razz Fazz there. he beat us. But on the Sunday easy ride Rich and Alan had some coast down tests and the Aero and the Carbon RF were equal with the Aero beating it on a few of the coast downs. Alan had his seat height much more upright for climbing not like what he is riding on his current NoCom.
IMO the NoCom is not the best setup as a bike for solo RAAM. The Aero is. That's all I have to say on the subject. Agree or disagree but racing is showing what works and what does not work here John.
I think my Blog is fair and well reasoned and how can you argue with Bacchetta's success?
You are of course welcome to comment on any of my posts. You will be treated fairly and If I have missrepresented anybody I will consider my position and if proven wrong change it.
www.bacchettaaero.blogspot.com


MG

NoCom_AA

Dual 26 bents with bigger wheels have relatively slower speeds at HPV racing events. The recent results at the FL HPV race show the fastest lap speed posted by a team Bacchetta racer was 24.58 mph. When compared to chip timed non faired lowracer speeds of 28.57 -28.93 at HPV events in 05 the 24.58 lap speed posted by team Bacchetta is considered slow.



Ultra races are not the only races to compare performance benchmarks. Until dual 26 recumbent design start posting fastest overall speeds at HPV events there is no justification to imply that a dual 26 design is the fastest bike design.


What was tricked out with the RazzFazz Kevin? I had a lowracer with an upright seat angle and fabric disc covers. 2 of the Bacchetta riders had solid rear discs. The Sunday ride was a social ride with Rich and brakes were used on the coast downs. Neither bike had the same tires or tire psi, the rider height and weight was different, the seat angles were different, neither rider started the descent at the same time and both riders had different cadence on the descent.


Get your facts straight about accurate coast down testing. You claim that lowracers and highracers are equally as fast based on an impromptu coast down 3 years ago. Lowracer designs have changed dramatically since then with improved perfomrance. The highracer design has not changed since that time.



Bacchetta had better team support than Velokraft in RAAM 05. Bacchetta beat Velokraft in RAAM 05. That was a team race not an individual race. Your theory of NoCom solo performance for RAAM is once again biased and non fact based.



Bring your Aero to an HPV event posted at WISIL to race against lowracers. After all racing shows what works and what does not work.
https://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/events.htm


There is a 200K the same weekend as the Indy HPV race. That 200K appears to be an option for a NoCom to race against a team Bacchetta Aero on roads with traffic, wind and hills. Finishing times and photos of the event can be posted on a blog for anyone to view regarding lowracer vs. highracer performance on the open road.

NoCom_AA

Magilla Gorilla

Hi Alan,

I pretty much agree with what you posted. But you must admit that in Ultra racing the speeds are lower and there are other factors other than Aerodynamics. I love the NoCom Alan. Great bike and design. Wish I would have ordered one with all of you guys when they first came out.
And a 200k is not an Ultra race Alan. You are most welcome to come to the Brevet. But you never know who will show buddy. All of us 'bent riders might just get our butts handed to us by some of the really strong DF'ers that might show.
And Brevets are not races and GLR does not publish finish times only the names in alphabetical order of the finishers in true Brevet style. I do not plan on riding this ride as a race. If you do I will post pics of your bike and your finish time on my Blog. You can write the story of your experience and I will post it for all to read. hope to see you there Alan. Your king on short rides Alan but on a 400k to a 24 hour event I think that a dual 26 is the way to go. To each his own. BTW Larry Graham is a team Bacchetta rider I am not. He will be at the Michigan UMCA Ultra championship this summer. I have not committed to this race as of yet since it all depends on my fitness level and amount of miles I have In. Larry won the Drafting class at 472 miles in 24 hours at the Sebring UMCA ultra championship race. This was a race with published finish times Alan. Larry is a northerner like you and I and had no miles in prior to this ride yet he did 472 miles. I think an actual Ultra race with published times is the best place to put this to rest.
Any rides planned for Monkey Island This spring? I need the miles....

TGAM

NoCom_AA

For years you have been posting that brevets are races and now you change your tune when someone challenges you to race one. Very funny Kevin.


Yeah lot of strong DF riders out there. My 200K target is the highracer rider/bloger/slide show person who has been claiming for years that lowracers are not street worthy, can not climb hills, can not ride on chip seal and are no good off the track. I want to see how long that highracer pilot can keep up with a lowracer before dropping off to draft pack wheels.



Yeah just like SP was not a race on that Sat. years ago. Time for you to start training when you are not bloging.


Sounds like a highracer excuse to sit in with the DF pack and suck wheels the whole way. Good for you. You might as well let the pack do all the work for you while you draft.


How are you going to take photos when you will be no where near the front and still out riding when I am finished? You should buy a lowracer so you can finish the 200k in a respectable time.



You never commit to any races Kevin. On your blog you claim that you race. Where are all your posted results of racing HPVs? What web sites are your results posted on?

Time for you to contact Larry for the 200K. You can both wear your ridiculous team jerseys and pretend to be super duo while racing the 200k on those chipseal roads and hills in WI.


Time you start training in your own local with your so called "fastest ride in the United States BS group". You need all the miles and speedwork you can get for the 200k race in April.

NoCom_AA

SoonerBent

Go Bacchetta!

I really don't get the " which bent is faster" argument. All bents have comfort and speed on DFs.
SB

Paul L.

It's human nature for guys to argue about who's is faster I guess. The fact is any two given riders may have different fitness levels. There is really no way to prove this definitively I think. I personally enjoy the high racer design but I haven't ridden a low racer. For the distances I do the position of the High Racer just looks more comfortable to me over a 23 hour period or longer (23 hours was my last ride). Maybe we will know for sure after 4 or 5 more RAAMs.

NoCom_AA

There is NO argument from me that Bacchetta makes an EXCELLENT ultra bike and has some of the elite and fastest ultra racers in the USA on their team. James Kern, Larry Graham, John Schlitter are all phenomenal athletes and racers.

In contrast, Kevin Magilla/Tom Swift/TGAM who is one of the original team Bacchetta members has been claiming that lowracers are no good on the streets, can't climb hills, are no good in traffic, are dangerous, are useless on chipseal with 406 front tires, can only race on the track, etc.... All biased claims not based on fact or lowracer riding experience.

According to TGAM a lowracer is not a good choice on the open roads with traffic in his local and limited WI area. In this thread he posts that a NoCom is not the bike for a solo RAAM attempt. Amazing how Kevin who never raced any recumbents at sanctioned events and has never sat on a lowracer more than 1 city block knows so much about lowracer performance, aerodynamics including biomechanics of an open riding position.

A dedicated blog for the 200K GLR event with photos and quicktime movies is inevitable. The recumbent community should have access to legitimate photos and movies comparing coastdown and climbing speeds of lowracer and highracer recumbent designs on roads not associated with HPV track venues.


NoCom_AA

Magilla Gorilla

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the nice words.
If you want to race me directly then lets do it at the 24 hour Race sanctioned by the UMCA in Michigan this summer. Larry, Jim and John all ride a lot more miles than I do right now. But I can do enough miles to get in half way decent shape for this event.

Magilla Gorilla

Alan,

If you do the 24 hour race I will show at your track race.
How about it? I think we could have some fun....

TGAM

Magilla Gorilla

The Michigan 24 hour challenge is on June 17 and 18 and here is a link to there page.

https://www.n24hc.org/

NoCom_AA

Kevin,
Are you not up for a quick 5+ hour ride in your area with one of those so called "slow & no good on the road lowracers"? Why poke along at 7 hours when sub 6 is doable on a lowracer Kev. You've got the big wheels buddy. Should be no problem to maintain a leading non drafting pace on all that rough pothole strewn WI chipseal. You do know you can not draft an ultra low when you ride a dual 650C Kev. You will have to ride solo and not depend on pack draft in the lead Kev.

There are plenty of people with ample time who can do the 24 hour ultra gig. I prefer the short distance quick stuff. Racing for a quick 40 minutes or a 5-6 hour event is plenty to maintain a healthy heart muscle, metabolism, cardiovascular system and lifestyle, eh Kev?

I planned to go to Indy and race on the track on 4/29 but someone with an ultra low has to travel to WI on 4/29 to produce video clips and photos to show the recumbent community that an ultra low recumbent can ride open roads at a brevet in WI with no danger to the rider. Videotaped coastdowns between highracer and lowracer do not exist on the net. Time for some visual performance reference eh? I've got the video crew ready to go for this event.

BTW, the title of the blog for the 200K will be "NoCom VS. Aero at the WI 200K Hilly Chipseal Brevet".
You can link it on your latest blog.

Don't forget your Blue B team jersey, Endurolytes & HammerGel flask on 4/29 Kevin.

NoCom_AA

BlazingPedals

IF Kevin goes to this, we'll all be expecting great things from him. Although he's never gone before, so perhaps he's just full of hot air, issuing challenges that he hopes will never be accepted. Or perhaps Bacchetta is planning on fielding a team of ringers there, too and he's planning on winning vicariously through their efforts.

The current N24HC recumbent record is held by a TerraTrike rider, a model which is not known to be one of the faster trikes out there. I know of at least one highracer to have competed; so using Kevin's brand of logic, that means trikes are better than highracers at long distances on real road courses.

ppc

The more mainstream recumbents become, the more the recumbent racing crowd looks like their roadie equivalents, complete with silly spandex jerseys, who's-got-the-bestest-fastest-lightest-most-carbon-fiberesque-bike arguments, boasting and pissing contests. I'm so glad I'm into touring...

Trsnrtr

It's not really a "which bent is faster" thread. Jeff-o explained it pretty well at the start of the thread.

NoCom_AA

Perhaps the best way to deal with Kevin will be to take a spare NoCom to WI and plop his dual 650C butt on the 6" high seat. He can ride the bike more than 1 city block.

After many years Kevin still has ZERO clues about lowracer efficiency while climbing hills, rolling resistance with a 406 front wheel on chipseal, low height visibility in traffic or top cruising speed with a rear wheel tucked behind a riders torso and not under. No need to get into bottom bracket to seat distance as that will overload Kevs brain.

The continued posts about impromptu recreational coastdowns from 3 years ago are rather funny. There may be some hope for Kevin Switfy Tom after he rides more than his current 1 block max distance on a lowracer recumbent. Until then I expect more absurd response about the evils and dangers of low bikes on real roads, at races, on ultras and RAAM.

NoCom_AA

Trsnrtr

I'm clueless about a NoCom because I'm too short to ride one and I've never had a chance to. However, I do know about highracers, both Aeros and Volaes, and I also know about a Baron. Personally, there is no way a highracer is more comfortable than my Baron over any distance or road surface, chipseal or autobahn. Lowracers are long and that long beam slides over bumps like a LazyBoy recliner.

I'll buy that some people have neck issues with lowracers and can't acclimate to the recline, but ride quality certainly isn't an issue.

-Dennis

NoCom_AA

C'mon you know plenty about the bike.

Hows about that Carbent?
https://www.carbent.com/index.htm

WOW!!!! 16+ lbs. The lightest highracer around with the sub 1 lb.. VK carbon seat, VK carbon fork, Volae handlebars, custom hubs and light wheels. That is one amazing bike.

I bet climbing a steep western mountain route with a Carbent will be easier compared to the much heavier Aero or Carbon Aero. Got to hand it to Dave Karcher of Carbent for finally producing a light carbon highracer design that is not a heavy springy titanium noodle.

NoCom_AA

Velokurt

Hi Racer, Low Racer. Rans XP Stratus. Who cares? Anyday on any recubent is a good day. United we stand divided we fall. With all that said How much faster do you think these guys might be on lowracers?