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Recumbent What IS that thing?! Recumbents may be odd looking, but they have many advantages over a "wedgie" bicycle. Discuss the in's and out's recumbent lifestyle in the recumbent forum.

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Old 10-25-06, 12:16 PM   #1
hawkijohn
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RecumbentUSA.com?

I'm a novice when it comes to bents but I'm getting interested. Prices seem pretty low with Recumbentusa, anyone have any experience? I'm going to be stopping at a shop that sells Bacchetta in a few days, opinions? I'm a 55 yr old roadie for whom speed and LONG distance are important.
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Old 10-25-06, 12:51 PM   #2
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I've heard of a few people who have bought a bike from them, they seem reasonably satisfied.

Make sure you compare them to ActionBent, you will find that ActionBent offers bikes with better components and better support, for a comparable price. And in case you're wondering why the designs look so similar, it's because they were designed by the same person (but manufactured by a different company).
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Old 10-25-06, 01:26 PM   #3
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No experience with recumbentusa, but my wife rides a Bacchetta Cafe and loves it. No issues with the bike mechanically yet, no complaints from the rider.
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Old 10-25-06, 04:26 PM   #4
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Speed & distance?
Optima Baron or EZ Racers Gold Rush. (Ti-Rush if you want "bling"!)
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Old 10-25-06, 05:51 PM   #5
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I think if you had a Bacchetta and one of those Recumbentusa bikes side by side, you'd see a huge difference in overall quality - weight, design, and components. Any bent will likely be comfortable, but if you want distance with speed, step up from the low-price leaders. You won't be sorry.
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Old 10-25-06, 06:23 PM   #6
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The Café retails at about $1k, which I consider quite a deal. I'm actually considering one for myself. I've noticed my back being sore after riding lately.
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Old 10-31-06, 10:12 PM   #7
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I have a model similar to yellow OSS bike ($725) pictured on the RecumbentUSA website, but slightly different. Mine has an angle-adjustable steering column and a few different components. Also, I paid less. The cromoly frame is strong and definitely solidly built, but the paint job is nothing to brag about. You get low end but functional bike parts, and despite what it says on the website, the fork is not suspended (as you can see in the pictures). Its a quality bike (but slightly rough around the edges), and if it was $100 cheaper it would be a nice bargain. I've seen the red USS bike sold on Ebay for around $550, which is about what its really worth. However, for the full RecumbentUSA list price or slightly more, I think you can get a better deal from ActionBent.
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Old 11-01-06, 08:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkijohn
I'm a novice when it comes to bents but I'm getting interested. Prices seem pretty low with Recumbentusa, anyone have any experience? I'm going to be stopping at a shop that sells Bacchetta in a few days, opinions? I'm a 55 yr old roadie for whom speed and LONG distance are important.

I'm a 54 yr old x roadie and personally and IMO I'd stay away from Recumbentusa as well as Actionbent. There bikes are low end stuff and not of great quality. You get what you pay for. You'll be much happier with the Bacchetta or Rans, something that has a company that will give you support and back there product if needed.
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Old 11-01-06, 09:22 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Ric
I'm a 54 yr old x roadie and personally and IMO I'd stay away from Recumbentusa as well as Actionbent. There bikes are low end stuff and not of great quality. You get what you pay for. You'll be much happier with the Bacchetta or Rans, something that has a company that will give you support and back there product if needed.
I too would stay away from Recumbent USA but as for the actiobent side, their tadpole is not even close to "Low End". It is not a Greenspeed or Trice, but would easily rival several of the midlevel trikes.

My reason for being cautious with Recumbent USA is that they are a new kid on the block and support is already marred as ifee. I believe that these are not TW Bent frames either. Dealing with Actionbent is a bit better as "the Steve" will make things right if they are not when you recieve your trike. Also, a highly motivated TW Bent rep has also been very active in helping USA and Canadian Actionbent customers. Thing is, you are working with an importer the same way LBS do. That is where the risks lie as there is no buffer between you and the importer. That is also why bikes cost so much more at your LBS. There are a lot of happy Actionbent tadpole trike owners out there.

As an all around trike, Actionbent is an excellent value. I have no regrets in this well designed and reasonably well dressed trike purchase. I haven't even looked at the need for "upgrading" to the next level as I know that would cost me 2X-3X what I have now.

I very much look forward to my first tour on this trike.
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Old 11-02-06, 07:04 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Shaman
I too would stay away from Recumbent USA but as for the actiobent side, their tadpole is not even close to "Low End". It is not a Greenspeed or Trice, but would easily rival several of the midlevel trikes.

My reason for being cautious with Recumbent USA is that they are a new kid on the block and support is already marred as ifee. I believe that these are not TW Bent frames either. Dealing with Actionbent is a bit better as "the Steve" will make things right if they are not when you recieve your trike. Also, a highly motivated TW Bent rep has also been very active in helping USA and Canadian Actionbent customers. Thing is, you are working with an importer the same way LBS do. That is where the risks lie as there is no buffer between you and the importer. That is also why bikes cost so much more at your LBS. There are a lot of happy Actionbent tadpole trike owners out there.

As an all around trike, Actionbent is an excellent value. I have no regrets in this well designed and reasonably well dressed trike purchase. I haven't even looked at the need for "upgrading" to the next level as I know that would cost me 2X-3X what I have now.

I very much look forward to my first tour on this trike.


If you would take note of my last post on this subject it said nothing about trikes just bikes, but since you brought it up I could tell you some horror stories about there ( AB ) trikes and I'm sure others here know what I'm refering too.
Now lets talk about design and this is only my opinion but I believe they took that from Catrike so I can't say a lot about that, and you are correct they do not compare to a Greenspeed or Trice or any other trike that I know of.

At best there a low end trike and as they should be for how there made. As I said before you get what you pay for and at $1375 your not and can't be getting much, just look at the spec's, DiaCompe Bar End Non Index shifters PLEASE thats Walmart and K- mart junk, and that's where they should be sold. You shouldn't even use AB in the same sentence as Greenspeed, Trice or Catrike.
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Old 11-02-06, 09:00 AM   #11
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I will say this for RecumbentUSA: you get a solid, well built frame.

Apart from some entry-level components, many of the flaws I noted are primarily cosmetic. The stock wheels are not bad, and with upgrades the bike can be a very decent and fun recumbent with good performance. If you can get one at a discounted price and have the patience to make changes, its actually not a bad way to go. With Actionbent you get a better recumbent (for more $) with less need for upgrades.

Not everybody has $1600-1800 to spend on a brand new Bacchetta, Rans, Volae, HP, etc. Its ridiculous to say that spending a bundle is the only way to get a good recumbent!
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Old 11-02-06, 09:53 AM   #12
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I've seen the actionbent tadpole up close and it's extremely nice for the price.
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Old 11-02-06, 10:36 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Recumbomatic
Its ridiculous to say that spending a bundle is the only way to get a good recumbent!
It depends on your expectations. Many people are perfectly happy with their $100 X-Mart mountain bike, never knowing the difference between that and a higher-quality bike. I look at some of the Sun bikes/trikes and I wonder how they can sell any at all - but again many people have them and love them.

Hawkijohn mentioned the requirement for speed and distance, but did not mention a limited budget. So I don't know why you guys are agonizing over which low-end bent gives the most bang for the buck. No matter the value, they're not equal to the higher-performance bikes available, which is what I think Hawkijohn is looking for.

Here's the way I see it: The requirement for speed disqualifies a trike. If you take 'speed' as meaning 'able to keep up with or beat DFs' then what you're really looking for is a speed-oriented bent - face it, most bents are built for comfort and are neither aerodynamically superior nor faster than uprights. No matter how much their owners may like them.
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Old 11-02-06, 12:21 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Recumbomatic
I will say this for RecumbentUSA: you get a solid, well built frame.

Apart from some entry-level components, many of the flaws I noted are primarily cosmetic. The stock wheels are not bad, and with upgrades the bike can be a very decent and fun recumbent with good performance. If you can get one at a discounted price and have the patience to make changes, its actually not a bad way to go. With Actionbent you get a better recumbent (for more $) with less need for upgrades.

Not everybody has $1600-1800 to spend on a brand new Bacchetta, Rans, Volae, HP, etc. Its ridiculous to say that spending a bundle is the only way to get a good recumbent!

To start with I never said to spend $1600-1800 on a brand new Bacchetta, Rans, Volae, HP, etc. I said you get what you pay for.
You're going to spend $725 on bike w/Tax $800 and from the way you post reads your going to upgrade wheels and components so by the time you make the improvements, wheels costing $350 to $400 for a decent set and new components $250 you will be spending $1450 on this deal and at that point you have a jigsaw puzzle you have to put together.
Now considering the wife just purchased a brand new custom built Rans Formula with a 700c rear wheel and 451 front, Pauls rear brakes, Bacchetta seat and all shimano Ultegra componenets for $1700 out the door I fail to see where that $725 bike that cost you $1450 is such a good deal.

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Old 11-02-06, 01:59 PM   #15
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Well, the fact that Hawkijohn is even looking at RecumbentUSA tells me that cost is a factor. Don't get me wrong, I think all those expensive recumbents are great, but you don't necessarily need one to get some exercise and have a good time. Especially when you're just starting out as a bent rider.

I also think some people are overemphasizing the quality differences between the upper and lower tier. Actionbents may not have the "oh-ah" properties of a Barchetta or a Challenge, but they certainly are not junk. The bent world is still rather small, and if someone consistently makes a K-Mart Huffy quality rolling disaster, believe me - word will get out.

I stand by what I said - the Taiwan bents come with good, solid frames. The stock wheels are ok, a few parts here and there could be improved, paint job could definitely be better. The FRP seat on an Actionbent/RecumbentUSA is not all that different from the seat on a $3000 Optima or M5. Comfortwise, it still beats the pants off most roadbike saddles, and if you want to go the distance, you can. And as for speed, the Taiwan two-wheelers are not slow, I can't speak for trikes. (Its 80% engine anyway!)

Hey, there's room for everyone at the recumbent party. I like my recumbent, and I don't want people dissing it just because they've got something better.
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Old 11-02-06, 04:07 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Recumbomatic
Well, the fact that Hawkijohn is even looking at RecumbentUSA tells me that cost is a factor.
He's an admitted total noobie, and he's asking a valid question: What do you get for the extra money? Or to put it another way, why are RecumbentUSA bike so much cheaper? Both are bike-shop quality bikes, but the RUSA bikes have cheaper frames, don't have the degree of engineering/sophistication, and they don't have a network of local dealers. They use chain tubes to route the chain. They're heavier. They're 8-speed instead of 9 or 10. They have lower-end components, such as Alivio rear derailleurs, Tektro brakes, and no-name cranks. Alivio stuff RUSTS, fer cryin' out loud! Maybe these things don't matter to you, but I'm guessing they do matter to someone coming from a roadie background that's serious enough to be worried about long distances.

Cost is *always* a factor, but it's not always a priority. In this case, speed and long distance were the priorities. In that case, I recommend the likes of Bacchetta or RANS over the likes of Recumbentusa or Actionbent. Although I also recommend trying to find examples of each, if possible, for comparison purposes.
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Old 11-02-06, 04:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by BlazingPedals
He's an admitted total noobie, and he's asking a valid question: What do you get for the extra money? Or to put it another way, why are RecumbentUSA bike so much cheaper? Both are bike-shop quality bikes, but the RUSA bikes have cheaper frames, don't have the degree of engineering/sophistication, and they don't have a network of local dealers. They use chain tubes to route the chain. They're heavier. They're 8-speed instead of 9 or 10. They have lower-end components, such as Alivio rear derailleurs, Tektro brakes, and no-name cranks. Alivio stuff RUSTS, fer cryin' out loud! Maybe these things don't matter to you, but I'm guessing they do matter to someone coming from a roadie background that's serious enough to be worried about long distances.

Cost is *always* a factor, but it's not always a priority. In this case, speed and long distance were the priorities. In that case, I recommend the likes of Bacchetta or RANS over the likes of Recumbentusa or Actionbent. Although I also recommend trying to find examples of each, if possible, for comparison purposes.
Yes, I'm a total newbie with bents and started looking with a completely blank page, as I did before buying my first road bike. In that case I started eyeing hybreds in the $300 range and a few weeks later spent $1700 in order to be able to ride the way I want to ride. I suppose it's likely I'll follow a similar pattern this time if indeed I do buy a bent. I really do want to invest the time and research to hopefully get it right for me the first time.
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Old 11-02-06, 08:42 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Ric
...As I said before you get what you pay for and at $1375 your not and can't be getting much, just look at the spec's, DiaCompe Bar End Non Index shifters PLEASE thats Walmart and K- mart junk...
If that's the best you can do in dis'n TW Bent or Actionbent, no more discussion is neccessary. I consider these appropriate and very functional on a trike.
And yes, Actiobent has now has very high quality powdercoat paint process on their machines. The quality of the frame welds (on aluminum even) will rival most.

Ric, you've never rode nor looked at an TW Bent machine so your "opinion" is just that. Nuf Sed
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Old 11-04-06, 10:04 AM   #19
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I have the ActionBent trike and love it, it came with excellent equipment and is far from a low level trike, the only thing low is the price. I have compared other mid-level trikes and some don't even come close to the AB.
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Old 11-16-06, 09:54 PM   #20
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There are lots of riders out there on various namings and slight style/frame differences of the TW trike. As for trash talking the vendors selling them, that's nothing more than 100% uninformed slander. Anyone claiming the trike won't be "fast" (which is a TOTALLY rider respective term) . . . DUH! If you are a REAL speed rider, you won't be going for a trike, you'll be going for a two wheeled bent. As for those claiming the component levels are junk, they would be the ones try to assuage their consciences by trashing any bent that doesn't have overpriced gear like the one they were foolish enough to buy. Please, tell me the huge performance difference between a $15 crankset and a $400 crankset?? Exactly. The only difference is who was smart enough to keep $385 in their pocket. For most riders, the only reason they might consider grouppo prices is because they've been brainwashed into thinking it's important. Even if a $20 derailleur wears out after a year, you have 10 years of replacement before you come up to a $200 "high end" component. I have a bunch of bents I've built using the $25 rule and myself and others riding them regularly outperform and outmatch "wallet riders" on their multi-thousand dollar bents and DFs. I have yet to replace a low cost component from wearing out and the lowest mileage on one of the bents is over 10000 km.

For the one trash-talking friction shifters, a shaved monkey can twist a grip or push a lever til it "clicks". Myself and many other riders who ride instead of trying to rationalize a huge price tag prefer finessing a shifter. So, insteadof trash talking someone because they don't want to, can't or aren't foolish enough to spend what you spend, or ride what you ride, how about encouraging them to find a bent that suits them or their wallet or both. Bent riders are a minority in the cycling world. That small minority is further subdivided into the trikes, high racers, low racers, deltas, homebuilders, etc etc etc. Why fight amongst ourselves instead of encouraging them?? Is it some kind of neanderthal trait? Any bent is a good bent, and if it isn't, then when the rider's tastes change or they get a little more informed, they can sell it and go get another one that is more suited to them. Bents are not like a DF and there is no one button solution to figure out what is right or not. Sometimes, it's trial and error regardless of how much info you think you've got - there aren't always "take backs".

I don't care how much someone paid, what they wear or what they look like, but I do like it if they ride a bike, even better if its some flavour of bent. What I don't like is the lame "mine is better than yours" attitude. I don't think it's recess time at public school anymore.
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Old 11-17-06, 09:16 AM   #21
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As far as I know I don't believe anyone said they were junk, my statement was (There bikes are low end stuff and not of great quality.) and I stick with that statement. You get what you pay for. You'll be much happier with the Bacchetta or Rans, something that has a company that will give you support and back there product if needed.
At best there a low end bike or trike and as they should be for how there made. As I said before you get what you pay for and at $1375 your not and can't be getting much, just look at the spec's, it proves my point DiaCompe Bar End Non Index shifters, they went out with the caveman, nobody uses non index shifters anymore. There component packages are packages that other dealers no longer want or will use, to put simply, there bikes and trikes out dated before they're even sold or hit the market, that's why you can buy the trike or bike so cheap. It has nothing to do with a "mine is better than yours" attitude, There bikes are low end stuff, it's just the fact of the matter.

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Old 11-17-06, 05:08 PM   #22
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Actually, as a fairly dedicated tourer, I use both systems (STI and friction), and actually prefer non-index. Well, to be more accurate, I have chosen to use the friction option as opposed to index on one of my bikes, because it just feels better. Many of my fellow tourists do the same. I hope we're not "nobodies".
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Old 11-18-06, 10:54 PM   #23
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As far as I know I don't believe anyone said they were junk, my statement was (There (you mean "their"?) bikes are low end stuff and not of great quality.) and I stick with that statement.
What they are is "inexpensive" so on the low end of the price scale, agreed. That is the only thing you really know about them for sure. Again, explain in detail how a casual rider (even a racer) gets far more "worth" or "quality" out of a $130 chain vs a $20 chain? Or maybe a $400 crankset vs a $20 crankset? How about rationalizing for me a $150 hub vs a $15 hub in which the ONLY difference is a one grade higher ball bearing (which cost EXACTLY 8 cents more each RETAIL) and a silk screen on the hub body? Fact is, there IS no rationalization for it aside from possibly some kind of elitism or some need to soothe an ego. The only place where massive price increases are actually buying something different is with over manufactured parts (like a drilled titanium chain with punched side plates) or some exotic material other than chrome moly or 6061, or if you want high pressure tires which have to be built stronger which actually justifies the cost increase. BUT, having said that, you can still get some great, durable 95 psi tires for about $10 a tire, and I've got some with 3 years of riding on them and there's still lots of life in them aside from a little side-wall weather-cracking.

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You get what you pay for.
Exactly right. They get a reliable bent, for a great price that far more people can afford, and THAT is the only, and most important thing for a new rider. Get something that is affordable, and if it turns out they don't like it, it'll be much easier to recoup the cost of a bent close to $1000 than it is to unload a "used" one (regardless of how pristine it looks) for two or three thousand.

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You'll be much happier with the Bacchetta or Rans, something that has a company that will give you support and back there product if needed.
Truly? Where are all the mad TW, AB, USA Recumbent and I Love Bent owners that received poor or non-existant support? I've yet to read of an owner who was completely unhappy with them and left twisting in the wind with no support and no satisfaction. Also, why would someone be happier to pay double or more for a bent especially when they don't want to or really can't afford to? Or, is this just another stab-in-the-dark slam against these bents because you're trying to justify in your own mind (and obviously to others) why you paid so much for yours and trying to make as many people as possible do the same thing?? You claim that the bents are low quality and you infer that the retailers will give poor or no support. Prove it or drop it.

Quote:
At best there a low end bike or trike and as they should be for how there made.
Ahh, and now you have inside information on how they're made? You do know that most of the US bent "manufacturers" (including many in other parts of the world) get their frames welded up by often the same welders, in the same countries, as the ones from TW Bents? You do know that these "USA made" bents are shipped over from big far-east welding shops by the shipping container load, right? What that does is give these "made in the USA" (and other places) bent "manufacturers" a recumbent frame at a fraction of the cost compared to what it would cost to build it over here, AND the shipping container cost is divided over the number of frames in the container and they STILL save a pile of money on the frames. You see, these welders (and make no mistake, the ones used by the bike industry ARE good welders or they aren't used for bike frames) make as much in a week, if they're lucky, than a N.A. welder makes each day. From the look of the beads, they look like nice AL beads to me, and no different than the frames/bents you're so fond of, but I've only been welding AL for about 15 years now. How about YOU? So if you're trash talking these bents you might be slamming the bents underneath your own butt at the same time.

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As I said before you get what you pay for and at $1375 your not and can't be getting much, just look at the spec's, it proves my point DiaCompe Bar End Non Index shifters, they went out with the caveman, nobody uses non index shifters anymore.
You get EXACTLY everything you get when you wander out and drop three thousand dollars. You get a fun, comfortable and reliable bent without paying triple the cost or more. As for the Diacompe's, point of fact, many parts wholesalers just started selling them AGAIN only a couple years ago. You know why? Because from bike shop feedback many serious bar con owners/users preferred the ritzy Shimano and Campy bar cons in friction mode anyway. Yes, unfortunately for you, the bar end shifter crowd is regressing back to the caves and the industry is helping them because the riders and OEM manufactures can use less expensive alternatives which lower the end cost AND are cheaper to replace when damaged AND they are compatible with ANY gearing system, and any number of speeds out there, unlike the ones you favour. I had Shimanos, and tried a Diacompe set because they were HALF the cost. After nearly 20,000km with my Diacompes, they are the only things I use now (as well as many others now that the Diacompes are accessible) and they work EXACTLY the same as the Shimanos, BUT, I get to keep half the price in my pocket. I know though, according to you, NOBODY uses them anymore yet the Diacompes are sold out from the wholesalers so often, I'm glad I've got accounts with 4 different wholesalers. Your assessment of the shifters is as off the mark as your assessment of these bents.

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There component packages are packages that other dealers no longer want or will use, to put simply, there bikes and trikes out dated before they're even sold or hit the market, that's why you can buy the trike or bike so cheap. It has nothing to do with a "mine is better than yours" attitude, There bikes are low end stuff, it's just the fact of the matter.
Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. The wholsalers will stock far more mid and low price range components than the high end because they know and understand something you're oblivious to - and that is that there are far more people who can afford and are using that price level component. You claim Altus, Alivio and Tiagra aren't wanted or used? Go look in a bike shop because on this planet, and on this continent here are magnitudes more bikes AND bents using reasonably priced, affordable parts than what you spend your money on, and there always will be. Also, if the "low quality" parts (so you claim) are so unwanted and unused, why is Shimano still pumping them out by the ton??

As to why the bents are so cheap, that is the simplest part of the economic picture, that you've obviously missed. If you knock $100 (and quite often it can be double or triple that amount) off the cost of the cranks, rings, cassette, derailleurs, headsets, hubs, rims, brakes, etc, the end result is a bent that is actually AFFORDABLE. that is the point of building a bent after all, so that someone can afford to buy it, and the more people that buy them, the happier the builder is and the more it helps them build. I've actually seen two of these trikes, have you? They look pretty much the same as any other commercial trike I've seen and the two owners were were every bit as happy with them as any other trike owner. The crucial things is, that if it wasn't for retailers of the TW Bents, those two people wouldn't have trikes at all. They both said they'd wanted trikes for a while but could afford or justify spending so much on a bike. So with the idea that the bent makers and retailers aretrying to get people on recumbents, the smart thing to do (which is finally starting to happen, albeit slowly) is that builders and retailers are actually trying to put bents out there that can be afforded by the average person. Someone who isn't obsessed with cycling and putting in as many miles a day as they can. Someone who may not ride their bike or bent any more than a couple times a week (or quite often less) instead of at least once a day.

In the end, your comments about the quality of the trike, the frame, how it's made and the "antiquity" of the components tells me you have absolutely no idea or facts to back up anything you've said while attacking these bents, the builder, the retailers and in the end, the owners too. You're exactly the kind of person who seems to validate themself by the amount of money they spend for "stuff" which apparently has to be more expensive than common sense would allow. I want people to be on bents, any bents, and at any cost. If they are happy riding it, then the bent is a 100% success because in the end, it's about RIDING THEM, not how much you spent on them. I don't own one of these trikes, nor do I sell them but I am a fan of them because people can actually afford them, and an affordable bent is a good thing.

Lastly, if you don't figure anything out, at least learn that it's "their", not "there". There.
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Old 11-18-06, 11:47 PM   #24
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You Go 25hz !!!
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Old 11-19-06, 09:09 AM   #25
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ADVERTISED: Alloy pedals,FSA 60/50 chainrings,Avid Single Digit 7 brakes
and 29h/32h wheels.

ACTUAL: Rubber/resin/alloy non adjustablepedals,Speedmax 58/48
chainrings,Avid Single Digit 5 brakes and 20h/24h wheels.

These amount to a significant functional difference and would cost at least
$100.00 at retail prices to correct.
AB is still running the misleading ad.

Some say we shoukd be patient and understaning with Steve and Randy
because they are simple importers and not bike experts. One would expect that
after 3+ years of selling bikes they would have some technical acumen Why do
so many bikes arrive damaged, missing parts, wrong parts fitted?
Why do
these bikes still lack model specific manuals and coherent instructions?Why
isn't AB's advertising kept current?


AB knowns about the flawed seatback quick release bracket, a problem that
breaks seats and could endanger the rider,yet still delivers bikes with this
bracket



AB's customers should demand flawless bikes and professional service and not
be pacified by a "relationship" with AB.

Over the last 3 to 4 yrs I been reading post just like this off your AB yahoo group, and as i say this is just one of many. Now if you can not figure this out, you have a problem. I don't have too own one to know I don't want one when they sell stuff like this, and if you can't tell the difference in the equipment that you mentioned, enough said. I stick by my statement.
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