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Lightning F-40

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Lightning F-40

Old 11-25-14, 11:25 PM
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Here's a pic of Chris and our friend Wally riding together on DALMAC. The speed envelopes were close enough to let him ride with us on flat ground, but when the road got hillier than, oh, FLAT, he fell behind. Still, it's a good platform. Almost as fast as something like a Quest, and for much less money.

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Old 11-26-14, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Steamer
FWIW, Willie's worst 200K routes have about 12 to 13K of climbing IIRC. I am pretty sure anything with 20K is going to be a 300 or 400K (or even a 600K).
Still, a lot for a shorter ride

Most of the permanents and brevets around here have climbing rates somewhere between 50 and 95 feet per mile (6,000 to 12,000 feet per 200K).
Oh yeah, Pennsylvania has those "mountain" thingies. Willie would know better, but I don't think that's the place for a velomobile.
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Old 11-26-14, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by BlazingPedals
Here's a pic of Chris and our friend Wally riding together on DALMAC. The speed envelopes were close enough to let him ride with us on flat ground, but when the road got hillier than, oh, FLAT, he fell behind. Still, it's a good platform. Almost as fast as something like a Quest, and for much less money.
I wonder if going with an F-90 (R-84 frame in a F-40 shell) would make a noticeable difference in that. But the price is a choker.
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Old 11-26-14, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by delcrossv
I wonder if going with an F-90 (R-84 frame in a F-40 shell) would make a noticeable difference in that. But the price is a choker.
Yeah, that's getting pretty close to a velomobile price range. The R-84 frame would shed some weight and add some stiffness (maybe), but I wouldn't think that would make a major difference in how it climbs. When it comes to climbing, I figure equipment can only do so much for you. Things are much more simple - it's that old power to weight ratio thing, again.
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Old 11-26-14, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by delcrossv
Still, a lot for a shorter ride.
For sure.


Originally Posted by delcrossv
Oh yeah, Pennsylvania has those "mountain" thingies. Willie would know better, but I don't think that's the place for a velomobile.
Yeah, the mountains themselves aren't all that terribly high, but if you cross a couple of those and throw a million little hills in the valley parts in between, it's not hard to get above 6000 feet per 200K. In fact, our route designs are largely about reducing climbing as much as possible without sacrificing pleasantness and safety. As in a lot of places with hills, safe and scenic and fun means hilly. But too much scenery means undue suffering. And a man can only take so much Type II and III fun in one day.

Edited to add: here: https://www.bentrideronline.com/messa...2&postcount=38 willie says his quest is faster than the Carbent over most routes where the climbing is less than 50 feet per mile. That makes sense to me. At some point, as the climbing per mile goes up, the superior aerodynamics of the velo yields to the much lower weight machine. Then again, a F-40 isn't all that terribly light, though. So, the crossover point between that and a light weight velo (thinking of a carbon Quest) might be a bit higher. Anyways, my overall impression is that an F-40 would be a better way to do faired rando than a velo in these here parts.

That said, just as compelling of a question is if the superior aerodynamics of an F-40 compared to my Metabike (CdA of about 0.16 to 0.23-ish, respectively) makes up for the higher weight of the F-40 over my typical routes? My Metabike is about 26 lbs naked. (heavy duty rando build....) and Lighting says the F-40 is 33 lbs. With me, plus clothes, water, bags and other crapola riding around on the Metabike weighing in at almost 207-208 lbs., that 7 lbs difference is only about 3.3%. Not much. . I estimate that 3.3% slower climbing would only amount to about 12 to 15 minutes of added climbing time on a typical 200K. Probably wouldn't take too many flat and open downhill sections to make up for that amount of lost time.

Last edited by Steamer; 11-26-14 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 11-26-14, 02:36 PM
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This is one reason why Tim Brummer might want to get in touch with his old buddy Don Guichard who since 2008 is with Cervelo doing the RCA composite thing for the climbing bike on the Grand Tours. I mean really, really light.
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Old 11-27-14, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by delcrossv
I wonder if going with an F-90 (R-84 frame in a F-40 shell) would make a noticeable difference in that. But the price is a choker.
not according to Wally. He bought the carbon r-84. Didn't make enough difference to make the money spent worthwhile. With comparable strength riders, a nocom is equal to a f-40 in the speed department except that the nocom will still go up the hills quicker.
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Old 11-27-14, 05:13 PM
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Yes, although an F-40 will be easier to come by.
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Old 11-27-14, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BlazingPedals
Yes, although an F-40 will be easier to come by.
I think John M. will be happy to build an equivalent. Mike M.'s not crying that he doesn't have a Nocom. Locally, John B. does his beat TT times on an M1.

Last edited by delcrossv; 11-27-14 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 11-28-14, 08:24 AM
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Velokraft Models NoCom

https://www.recumbents.com/wisil/misc/nocom.htm

This NoCom (no compromise) is the racing machine.

Last edited by Garfield Cat; 11-28-14 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 11-28-14, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by delcrossv
I think John M. will be happy to build an equivalent. Mike M.'s not crying that he doesn't have a Nocom. Locally, John B. does his beat TT times on an M1.
Yes but is this thread about Nocoms and M1s or F40s?
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Old 11-28-14, 09:30 PM
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I don't think anybody remembers what the topic started out as
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Old 11-28-14, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lowracer1
I don't think anybody remembers what the topic started out as
So? It's the Internet, ain't it?

You want to hear about my cat?
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Old 11-29-14, 08:41 AM
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As long as we've gone a bit amiss, I'll point out that I'd love to see a Silvio V1.x get the F40 treatment. That would be a fast bike!
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Old 11-29-14, 08:48 AM
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And on a lighter note........
How about the F40 treatment on a Screamer?
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Old 11-29-14, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by JanMM
And on a lighter note........
How about the F40 treatment on a Screamer?
Yawn... been there, done that. (OK... more like a 'socked Gold Rush, but...) This is from the 2003 Human Power Challenge in Portland: Road Races





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Old 11-29-14, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wills
Yawn... been there, done that. (OK... more like a 'socked Gold Rush, but...) This is from the 2003 Human Power Challenge in Portland: Road Races
Nice. Who'da thunk?
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Old 11-30-14, 11:27 AM
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Whenever I see/hear news about cycling accidents, its not about recumbents. Yet, the first thing the safety types say is that recumbents are inherently dangerous because they're too low for drivers to see.
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Old 11-30-14, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Garfield Cat
Whenever I see/hear news about cycling accidents, its not about recumbents. Yet, the first thing the safety types say is that recumbents are inherently dangerous because they're too low for drivers to see.
1. some are not particularly low
2. if you can see the paint on the pavement, you can see a recumbent
3. the "safety types" are NOT recumbent riders.


Take a pick.

FWIW 4. it's virtually impossible to do an endo on most bents (IIRC the most common type of bike accident)
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Old 11-30-14, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Garfield Cat
Whenever I see/hear news about cycling accidents, its not about recumbents. Yet, the first thing the safety types say is that recumbents are inherently dangerous because they're too low for drivers to see.
Ouch. That hits close to the home. One of my friends was killed while riding his recumbent recently:
Collision involving FedEx truck kills man riding on Cornell Road in Cedar Mill - BikePortland.org
From all indications, it was the truck driver's fault. I find it hard to believe that anyone would miss seeing him and his bike.

RIP Kirke Johnson:

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Old 12-02-14, 09:51 AM
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A friend up in Oregon as a Metabike Metaphysics. Unique thing is that both front and rear wheel size are the same. This is different than the Lightning P-38.

Is this same size wheel type any better than the smaller front wheel?
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Old 12-02-14, 10:04 AM
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For bumpy roads, a larger wheel is better, and you have the most tire choices in 700c. I think the lower Crr you may get with large wheels is overemphasized though. What is more important is how the bike's ergonomics work with you and what you want to bike to do. Big front wheel = high bottom bracket. Are you comfortable with that for what you want to use the bike for? I have both and it's horses for courses.
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Old 12-02-14, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Garfield Cat
A friend up in Oregon as a Metabike Metaphysics. Unique thing is that both front and rear wheel size are the same. This is different than the Lightning P-38.

Is this same size wheel type any better than the smaller front wheel?
That's not particularly unique. There are lots of 'bents with equal sized, large (26" and bigger) wheels. The metabikes have some unique features, but equal sized wheels isn't one of them.
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Old 12-02-14, 02:22 PM
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Ok, I looked up BikeSmith Designs, Mark Stonich. He seems to be the guru of recumbent design , or at least one of them. Now, I have to re-think this whole thing and what the P-38 means to me.
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Old 12-02-14, 04:03 PM
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Garfield, you're sort of all over the map, here.

If you've done research into 'bents you've surely realized that there a very large number of different types and designs. Each of these has pros and cons. There is no one magical perfect recumbent for everyone and every use and every situation.

If you are interested in possibly getting a recumbent, and want to make a good choice, then you need to do a few things:

1. Try to understand what the pros and cons generally are with each type of recumbent.
2. Be honest with yourself about what your needs and preferences really are.
3. Test ride. Test ride some more.
4. Go for it. Buy something. Understand that you probably will not buy the perfect bike for you on the first try. Very few people do.
5. If that first bike is not perfect, repeat steps 1 through 3 above.
6. Sell the previous bike bike and buy something that gets you closer to perfect. Bents hold their resale value pretty well.

Each time you go through the process you will get closer and closer to the ONE. And after a few years of owning the ONE, your preferences or needs will change and you'll be back where you started.

It's a journey, not a destination.
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