Yet another BB30 creak thread......(sigh).....
02-08-16, 05:49 AM
#301
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Hi loimpact,
Can you be more specific about where this Loctite build up is? You say heavy deposits at 5 and 7 o'clock? Is this inside of the bore or the outside face of the bore?
Reason I ask is..if inside the bore, this build up may reflect a lack of concentricity of the carbon bore ID itself. Why? Because most probably your Wheel Mfg cup is concentric. When Loctiting a cup into a carbon bore, the cup is in effect a male mold. Loctite follows this mold and will generally adhere more tenaciously to carbon when removing the cup...because the carbon ID is a more irregular surface compared to the machined alloy cup OD.
Conventional wisdom is not to clean residual Loctite from a carbon bore when changing the bearings of a BB. Why? Two reasons:
1. Loctite left has to follow the concentricity of the male mold aka alloy cup BB which creates a rounder hole for re-Loctiting in a new or same BB.
2. Loctite left in effect protects the carbon thereby preserving the life the carbon shell. It further is a great bonding agent of course when new Loctite is used to reinstall the BB or new BB.
If you must remove residual Loctite, you may want to try acetone on a cloth with a hint of abrasion...like a Scotchbrite. Just be careful not to erode the ID of the carbon shell itself.
HTH
Can you be more specific about where this Loctite build up is? You say heavy deposits at 5 and 7 o'clock? Is this inside of the bore or the outside face of the bore?
Reason I ask is..if inside the bore, this build up may reflect a lack of concentricity of the carbon bore ID itself. Why? Because most probably your Wheel Mfg cup is concentric. When Loctiting a cup into a carbon bore, the cup is in effect a male mold. Loctite follows this mold and will generally adhere more tenaciously to carbon when removing the cup...because the carbon ID is a more irregular surface compared to the machined alloy cup OD.
Conventional wisdom is not to clean residual Loctite from a carbon bore when changing the bearings of a BB. Why? Two reasons:
1. Loctite left has to follow the concentricity of the male mold aka alloy cup BB which creates a rounder hole for re-Loctiting in a new or same BB.
2. Loctite left in effect protects the carbon thereby preserving the life the carbon shell. It further is a great bonding agent of course when new Loctite is used to reinstall the BB or new BB.
If you must remove residual Loctite, you may want to try acetone on a cloth with a hint of abrasion...like a Scotchbrite. Just be careful not to erode the ID of the carbon shell itself.
HTH
02-08-16, 05:53 AM
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Yeah I thought I knew, too. While waiting for my new BB30 bearings to come in I decided to crank down the rear wheel skewer more. What do you know, no more noise. Sounds exactly like a creaky bottom bracket.
02-08-16, 06:11 AM
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02-08-16, 06:34 AM
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As you point out, best to choose the least invasive chemical and alcohol is much less aggressive aka safer than acetone if alcohol can get the job done.
A good tip for all that use Loctite...
Thanks Robert
02-08-16, 07:01 AM
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Funny how much I miss doing real chemistry at the bench. Not just since retirement. I was confined to an office and airplanes and hotels for about the last 25 years of my career. Nothing I liked better than hands-on organic synthesis. Nothing my wife hated more.
She was so relieved when I stopped coming home smelling like you can't imagine what. She was always worried about my health taking a hit from the carcinogens and all.
02-08-16, 08:38 AM
#306
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Hi loimpact,
Can you be more specific about where this Loctite build up is? You say heavy deposits at 5 and 7 o'clock? Is this inside of the bore or the outside face of the bore?
Reason I ask is..if inside the bore, this build up may reflect a lack of concentricity of the carbon bore ID itself. Why? Because most probably your Wheel Mfg cup is concentric. When Loctiting a cup into a carbon bore, the cup is in effect a male mold. Loctite follows this mold and will generally adhere more tenaciously to carbon when removing the cup...because the carbon ID is a more irregular surface compared to the machined alloy cup OD.
Conventional wisdom is not to clean residual Loctite from a carbon bore when changing the bearings of a BB. Why? Two reasons:
1. Loctite left has to follow the concentricity of the male mold aka alloy cup BB which creates a rounder hole for re-Loctiting in a new or same BB.
2. Loctite left in effect protects the carbon thereby preserving the life the carbon shell. It further is a great bonding agent of course when new Loctite is used to reinstall the BB or new BB.
If you must remove residual Loctite, you may want to try acetone on a cloth with a hint of abrasion...like a Scotchbrite. Just be careful not to erode the ID of the carbon shell itself.
HTH
Can you be more specific about where this Loctite build up is? You say heavy deposits at 5 and 7 o'clock? Is this inside of the bore or the outside face of the bore?
Reason I ask is..if inside the bore, this build up may reflect a lack of concentricity of the carbon bore ID itself. Why? Because most probably your Wheel Mfg cup is concentric. When Loctiting a cup into a carbon bore, the cup is in effect a male mold. Loctite follows this mold and will generally adhere more tenaciously to carbon when removing the cup...because the carbon ID is a more irregular surface compared to the machined alloy cup OD.
Conventional wisdom is not to clean residual Loctite from a carbon bore when changing the bearings of a BB. Why? Two reasons:
1. Loctite left has to follow the concentricity of the male mold aka alloy cup BB which creates a rounder hole for re-Loctiting in a new or same BB.
2. Loctite left in effect protects the carbon thereby preserving the life the carbon shell. It further is a great bonding agent of course when new Loctite is used to reinstall the BB or new BB.
If you must remove residual Loctite, you may want to try acetone on a cloth with a hint of abrasion...like a Scotchbrite. Just be careful not to erode the ID of the carbon shell itself.
HTH
I had to work with my thumbnail on the faces of the bores for a while. The alcohol would break it down a bit but there were sections where it just stuck extremely well. I think I've got most of it off now so I'm not going to worry about the rest.
FWIW, I recently had a conversation with a long time mechanic at one of the LBS's near me. He said the best success he's had above all else is twofold.
1.) Praxis adapter
2.) White Lightning's Crystal grease
He said he's repeatedly tried over & over again and that has netted the best result for him after hundreds of BB fixes he's tried. I don't have a Praxis adapter to play with but am tempted to test for only testing's sake. (I have no problem pulling it apart & trying something new).
My dilema is that Wheels Mfg wants "PTFE" grease only for a BB application. This mechanic, however, swears by a carbon-friendly grease like "Crystal". I'd like to try my Wheels Mfg BB with the o-rings back on & one of the 2 above greases. Knowing that the failure rate will probably come sooner.....(but for the sake of my curiosity).....would you recommend one grease over another in my test??? (And, no, I wouldn't be afraid to try both in 2 separate tests if you didn't have an opinion on the type)
TIA
I might need to rename my handle (PF30 guinea pig boy)
02-08-16, 08:44 AM
#307
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Well, my "soaking" techique" seemed to help. I was, then able to scrape (with my thumbnail) the excess off at the mouth of the BB shell in that 5 to 7 o'clock position. The loctite came off the alloy cups quite easily. Even within the grooves a small screwdriver literally lifted it out like dried sugar candy.
I had to work with my thumbnail on the faces of the bores for a while. The alcohol would break it down a bit but there were sections where it just stuck extremely well. I think I've got most of it off now so I'm not going to worry about the rest.
FWIW, I recently had a conversation with a long time mechanic at one of the LBS's near me. He said the best success he's had above all else is twofold.
1.) Praxis adapter
2.) White Lightning's Crystal grease
He said he's repeatedly tried over & over again and that has netted the best result for him after hundreds of BB fixes he's tried. I don't have a Praxis adapter to play with but am tempted to test for only testing's sake. (I have no problem pulling it apart & trying something new).
My dilema is that Wheels Mfg wants "PTFE" grease only for a BB application. This mechanic, however, swears by a carbon-friendly grease like "Crystal". I'd like to try my Wheels Mfg BB with the o-rings back on & one of the 2 above greases. Knowing that the failure rate will probably come sooner.....(but for the sake of my curiosity).....would you recommend one grease over another in my test??? (And, no, I wouldn't be afraid to try both in 2 separate tests if you didn't have an opinion on the type)
TIA
I might need to rename my handle (PF30 guinea pig boy)
I had to work with my thumbnail on the faces of the bores for a while. The alcohol would break it down a bit but there were sections where it just stuck extremely well. I think I've got most of it off now so I'm not going to worry about the rest.
FWIW, I recently had a conversation with a long time mechanic at one of the LBS's near me. He said the best success he's had above all else is twofold.
1.) Praxis adapter
2.) White Lightning's Crystal grease
He said he's repeatedly tried over & over again and that has netted the best result for him after hundreds of BB fixes he's tried. I don't have a Praxis adapter to play with but am tempted to test for only testing's sake. (I have no problem pulling it apart & trying something new).
My dilema is that Wheels Mfg wants "PTFE" grease only for a BB application. This mechanic, however, swears by a carbon-friendly grease like "Crystal". I'd like to try my Wheels Mfg BB with the o-rings back on & one of the 2 above greases. Knowing that the failure rate will probably come sooner.....(but for the sake of my curiosity).....would you recommend one grease over another in my test??? (And, no, I wouldn't be afraid to try both in 2 separate tests if you didn't have an opinion on the type)
TIA
I might need to rename my handle (PF30 guinea pig boy)
02-08-16, 09:17 AM
#308
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The way I see it the trouble with grease is that is can be displaced from the interface between the two surfaces (squeezed out) and then you are left unprotected against rubbing of one surface against the other. The Loctite immobilizes the two surfaces in contact with each other. No motion means no lubrication is needed.
Further loimpact, nobody can spec a given grease from behind a keyboard. You would need to build enough bikes from each sample of both greases to encapsulate a population of tolerances and riding conditions to know if one grease is better than other. Loctite is better than any grease is the way I see it. But if you want to test alternative scenarios..go for it. Inexplicable why your Loctited Wheel Mfg BB creaked...other than the Loctite bond wasn't complete...or...your bearings within the Whl Mfg cups are not ideal.
Good luck
02-08-16, 09:18 AM
#309
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The way I see it the trouble with grease is that is can be displaced from the interface between the two surfaces (squeezed out) and then you are left unprotected against rubbing of one surface against the other. The Loctite immobilizes the two surfaces in contact with each other. No motion means no lubrication is needed.
I want to test Wheel Mfg's theory by applying their instructions to the letter (which I will assume at this point will fail sooner than the loctite did) after which I wouldn't hesitate to re-test with loctite again. With the RT-1 tool, I know that removing the BB will be quite easy, and I believe the Wheels Mfg version test will be a quicker swap back, than the loctited version as I did spend a good couple of hours last night cleaning vigorously on the loctite 609.
FWIW......the 70% alcohol I used last night was VERY slow going on the carbon shell. I will plan to apply a bit more thinly when I do test the loctite again as that was not a fun task.
02-08-16, 09:21 AM
#310
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Agree with Robert
Further loimpact, nobody can spec a given grease from behind a keyboard. You would need to build enough bikes from each sample of both greases to encapsulate a population of tolerances and riding conditions to know if one grease is better than other. Loctite is better than any grease is the way I see it. But if you want to test alternative scenarios..go for it. Inexplicable why your Loctited Wheel Mfg BB creaked...other than the Loctite bond wasn't complete...or...your bearings within the Whl Mfg cups are not ideal.
Good luck
Further loimpact, nobody can spec a given grease from behind a keyboard. You would need to build enough bikes from each sample of both greases to encapsulate a population of tolerances and riding conditions to know if one grease is better than other. Loctite is better than any grease is the way I see it. But if you want to test alternative scenarios..go for it. Inexplicable why your Loctited Wheel Mfg BB creaked...other than the Loctite bond wasn't complete...or...your bearings within the Whl Mfg cups are not ideal.
Good luck
Should be informative! Will post results, for sure!
02-08-16, 09:30 AM
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The issue with grease isn't will it work. As Robert explained...the question is...for how long. Grease is amorphous and incompressible and therefore hydraulics out over time and why greased press fit BB's may work just fine for a while as a film of grease exists...but this atrophies with pedaling over time.
Good luck
Good luck
02-22-16, 06:58 PM
#312
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2 weeks.
Next up....I'm thinking of leaving the o-rings in this time when I put the 609 in just to see if it will preserve more of the 609 for the mating surfaces so lesbian lost into the o-ring grooves. I know the o-rings aren't necessary, just trying to make the bond better. (Reminder, they're squared o-rings so minimal interference with what I'm trying to do)
BTW, frame #2 (don't tel my wife) is getting the pro mechanic's version of his fail safe which will include praxis works adapter. We'll see how that goes.
I may yet be grabbing the new version of the wheels mfg BB to try even a 5th option and even that may not be the end of it all. (Though no 3rd frame lest I gamble with my personal well being).
Next up....I'm thinking of leaving the o-rings in this time when I put the 609 in just to see if it will preserve more of the 609 for the mating surfaces so lesbian lost into the o-ring grooves. I know the o-rings aren't necessary, just trying to make the bond better. (Reminder, they're squared o-rings so minimal interference with what I'm trying to do)
BTW, frame #2 (don't tel my wife) is getting the pro mechanic's version of his fail safe which will include praxis works adapter. We'll see how that goes.
I may yet be grabbing the new version of the wheels mfg BB to try even a 5th option and even that may not be the end of it all. (Though no 3rd frame lest I gamble with my personal well being).
02-22-16, 08:08 PM
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2 weeks.
Next up....I'm thinking of leaving the o-rings in this time when I put the 609 in just to see if it will preserve more of the 609 for the mating surfaces so lesbian lost into the o-ring grooves. I know the o-rings aren't necessary, just trying to make the bond better. (Reminder, they're squared o-rings so minimal interference with what I'm trying to do)
BTW, frame #2 (don't tel my wife) is getting the pro mechanic's version of his fail safe which will include praxis works adapter. We'll see how that goes.
I may yet be grabbing the new version of the wheels mfg BB to try even a 5th option and even that may not be the end of it all. (Though no 3rd frame lest I gamble with my personal well being).
Next up....I'm thinking of leaving the o-rings in this time when I put the 609 in just to see if it will preserve more of the 609 for the mating surfaces so lesbian lost into the o-ring grooves. I know the o-rings aren't necessary, just trying to make the bond better. (Reminder, they're squared o-rings so minimal interference with what I'm trying to do)
BTW, frame #2 (don't tel my wife) is getting the pro mechanic's version of his fail safe which will include praxis works adapter. We'll see how that goes.
I may yet be grabbing the new version of the wheels mfg BB to try even a 5th option and even that may not be the end of it all. (Though no 3rd frame lest I gamble with my personal well being).
02-22-16, 08:12 PM
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Glad I went with a BB86!
After reading this thread I'm glad I didn't get a BB30.
So is the culprit the snaprings? Or is it the metal on metal? Fortunately Shimano make a plastic cupped Ultegra BB86 which when greased produces no noise what so-ever ... well at least so far.
So is the culprit the snaprings? Or is it the metal on metal? Fortunately Shimano make a plastic cupped Ultegra BB86 which when greased produces no noise what so-ever ... well at least so far.
02-22-16, 08:16 PM
#315
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02-22-16, 08:23 PM
#316
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Pic of the "pooling" I had talked about between the 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock position of the BB shell.......
And here, you can see where a significant amount of 609 got trapped in the o-ring grooves of the cups.....
And here, you can see where a significant amount of 609 got trapped in the o-ring grooves of the cups.....
02-22-16, 08:36 PM
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It is the plastic-cupped PF30 bottom bracket assembly which causes the most trouble...when not properly installed, i.e. with liberal use of Loctite 609. And sometimes even with it. I don't see how your similar BB86 assembly could be much different. But I don't wish you a problem. Good luck with your plan. At least you know what to do if it doesn't work out.
02-23-16, 08:34 AM
#318
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Ok, so as an update......last night I thoroughly cleaned, prepped & reinstalled the Wheels mfg BB. This time *with* the o-rings, in the aforementioned attempt to keep the 609 where I want it. (exclusively on the mating surfaces)
I applied with a saturated q-tip to both shell and cups and I think was as thorough and "even" an application as humanly possible. The pressing went smoothly with a much more common "clack, clack, clack" as the cups were pressed in vs the prior PTFE pressing which was significantly less noisy.
I immediately installed the cranks and gave them a spin, then installed excessive spacers and cinched 'em up to encourage a best-case alignment of all concentric circles involved.
We shall see what this brings.
I applied with a saturated q-tip to both shell and cups and I think was as thorough and "even" an application as humanly possible. The pressing went smoothly with a much more common "clack, clack, clack" as the cups were pressed in vs the prior PTFE pressing which was significantly less noisy.
I immediately installed the cranks and gave them a spin, then installed excessive spacers and cinched 'em up to encourage a best-case alignment of all concentric circles involved.
We shall see what this brings.
02-23-16, 09:35 AM
#319
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It is the plastic-cupped PF30 bottom bracket assembly which causes the most trouble...when not properly installed, i.e. with liberal use of Loctite 609. And sometimes even with it. I don't see how your similar BB86 assembly could be much different. But I don't wish you a problem. Good luck with your plan. At least you know what to do if it doesn't work out.
