Physics: loose spokes as weather warms up?
#1
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Physics: loose spokes as weather warms up?
My spokes seemed a bit loose tonight. Why?
I rode a fair amount in March when the temps were sometimes below 0, and I also stored my bike in an unheated shed (though I kept the bike in a heated basement for January and February). Now the temps are generally above freezing. Is it possible that a transition from a month of lots of freezing air into the warmer spring air could potentially result in looser spokes, perhaps encouraged by riding in said above-freezing air?
Just curious. I admit I'm a physics idiot.
I rode a fair amount in March when the temps were sometimes below 0, and I also stored my bike in an unheated shed (though I kept the bike in a heated basement for January and February). Now the temps are generally above freezing. Is it possible that a transition from a month of lots of freezing air into the warmer spring air could potentially result in looser spokes, perhaps encouraged by riding in said above-freezing air?
Just curious. I admit I'm a physics idiot.
#2
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No! But, could be the seed for another deflated football discussion. At least in that situation the numbers made a bit of sense.
My spokes seemed a bit loose tonight. Why?
I rode a fair amount in March when the temps were sometimes below 0, and I also stored my bike in an unheated shed (though I kept the bike in a heated basement for January and February). Now the temps are generally above freezing. Is it possible that a transition from a month of lots of freezing air into the warmer spring air could potentially result in looser spokes, perhaps encouraged by riding in said above-freezing air?
Just curious. I admit I'm a physics idiot.
I rode a fair amount in March when the temps were sometimes below 0, and I also stored my bike in an unheated shed (though I kept the bike in a heated basement for January and February). Now the temps are generally above freezing. Is it possible that a transition from a month of lots of freezing air into the warmer spring air could potentially result in looser spokes, perhaps encouraged by riding in said above-freezing air?
Just curious. I admit I'm a physics idiot.
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When I messed around and built a couple of wheels I did notice that the spoke tension altered when an inflated tyre was on the rim compared to a bare rim or a deflated tyre. I guessed that the inflated tyre was basically squeezing the rim smaller and the spoke tension was slightly lower.
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Sorry, guess you are not an NFL fan and familiar with the Patriots/Tom Brady issue last season where they were accused of playing with under inflated footballs to improve the QB's grip on the football. Google it if you like or are curious. Back to your wheels, there may be small changes in spoke tension from one condition to another as you describe due to the fact that your rims are aluminium or carbon and your spokes are steel (different coefficients of thermal expansion) plus the effect of tire pressure changes. But this is very small stuff. But more importantly if your spokes were properly tensioned last summer, regardless of the warming and cooling they experienced, they will come back to the same tension once you get back to the same temperatures this summer. Many of us have ridden through enough winters to confirm that the spoke tension change that may occur due to temperature change is so small that it has no effect on wheel performance. All that is not saying that something has not happened to your wheels. But if it has it was not because of temperature changes.
#6
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Back to your wheels, there may be small changes in spoke tension from one condition to another as you describe due to the fact that your rims are aluminium or carbon and your spokes are steel (different coefficients of thermal expansion) plus the effect of tire pressure changes. But this is very small stuff. But more importantly if your spokes were properly tensioned last summer, regardless of the warming and cooling they experienced, they will come back to the same tension once you get back to the same temperatures this summer. Many of us have ridden through enough winters to confirm that the spoke tension change that may occur due to temperature change is so small that it has no effect on wheel performance. All that is not saying that something has not happened to your wheels. But if it has it was not because of temperature changes.
Come to think of it, I do end up doing a retensioning every now and again. Maybe once per year. So, well...shrug.
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My spokes seemed a bit loose tonight. Why?
I rode a fair amount in March when the temps were sometimes below 0, and I also stored my bike in an unheated shed (though I kept the bike in a heated basement for January and February). Now the temps are generally above freezing. Is it possible that a transition from a month of lots of freezing air into the warmer spring air could potentially result in looser spokes, perhaps encouraged by riding in said above-freezing air?
Just curious. I admit I'm a physics idiot.
I rode a fair amount in March when the temps were sometimes below 0, and I also stored my bike in an unheated shed (though I kept the bike in a heated basement for January and February). Now the temps are generally above freezing. Is it possible that a transition from a month of lots of freezing air into the warmer spring air could potentially result in looser spokes, perhaps encouraged by riding in said above-freezing air?
Just curious. I admit I'm a physics idiot.
Calculation is pretty easy. Coef. of thermal expansion X temp difference. Bottom line is C sub T is very small and the temp diff isn't enough to make a difference. Same with the rim and the hub. Proper wheel spoke tensioning in terms of elastic deformation of the spokes should easily encompass elastic tension in the spokes in cold weather...or your spoke tension is too low.
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Although there is good agreement among us that it makes no difference, still it makes sense to build your wheels at or near the mid-point of your most common riding temperatures. Or maybe what I really mean is that I'm really lucky that my situation just seems to work out that way. My house is say, low '70s. I don't ride colder than mid-50s or hotter than mid-90s and usually the limits are mid-60s and mid-80s. So my build temperature is just about centered between my riding extremes. You can't ask for better than that. Not that it matters...just sayin'.
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Although there is good agreement among us that it makes no difference, still it makes sense to build your wheels at or near the mid-point of your most common riding temperatures. Or maybe what I really mean is that I'm really lucky that my situation just seems to work out that way. My house is say, low '70s. I don't ride colder than mid-50s or hotter than mid-90s and usually the limits are mid-60s and mid-80s. So my build temperature is just about centered between my riding extremes. You can't ask for better than that. Not that it matters...just sayin'.
Ok to run slighltly higher than mid pt tensions if you know you are going to ride the bike at temps near freezing but again, amount of thermal expansion is miniscule for the temperature differential that humans can survive in. Not the same as a 200 deg F difference as with an internal combustion engine for example.
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Although there is good agreement among us that it makes no difference, still it makes sense to build your wheels at or near the mid-point of your most common riding temperatures. Or maybe what I really mean is that I'm really lucky that my situation just seems to work out that way. My house is say, low '70s. I don't ride colder than mid-50s or hotter than mid-90s and usually the limits are mid-60s and mid-80s. So my build temperature is just about centered between my riding extremes. You can't ask for better than that. Not that it matters...just sayin'.
No it doesn't. If you live in Canada and ride in the winter time, who wants to build their wheels in a freezing room...lol.
Ok to run slighltly higher than mid pt tensions if you know you are going to ride the bike at temps near freezing but again, amount of thermal expansion is miniscule for the temperature differential that humans can survive in. Not the same as a 200 deg F difference as with an internal combustion engine for example.
Ok to run slighltly higher than mid pt tensions if you know you are going to ride the bike at temps near freezing but again, amount of thermal expansion is miniscule for the temperature differential that humans can survive in. Not the same as a 200 deg F difference as with an internal combustion engine for example.
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First approximation says the spoke gets shorter, therefore you are stretching it more and the tension goes up. But as said above, you also have to factor in the rim and hub changes.
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If you meant spoke tension, a ring contracts the same as a cylinder, or spokes, and an aluminum rim has a higher coefficient of expansion, so it does seem to me that the spoke tensions would get lower in cold.
Last edited by wphamilton; 04-04-15 at 08:23 AM.
#15
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Aluminum shrinks more than spokes or nipples material so I'd think it (spoke in the spoke hole) would get tighter in cold.
If you meant spoke tension, a ring contracts the same as a cylinder, or spokes, and an aluminum rim has a higher coefficient of expansion, so it does seem to me that the spoke tensions would get lower in cold.
If you meant spoke tension, a ring contracts the same as a cylinder, or spokes, and an aluminum rim has a higher coefficient of expansion, so it does seem to me that the spoke tensions would get lower in cold.
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Whoa...so maybe there's something to this? I wish I could remember whether my spoke retensioning tends to happen in the spring or not. But either way, I think that perhaps my heavier build, putting a heavier load on the rims, probably has something to do with this a la straws and camels' backs.
The hub would shrink also reducing the effect, but from a smaller radius so a lesser amount. So it must be something less than 1/7 turn at least.
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Assuming steel and aluminum respectively, both would expand slightly with the warmer temperature, but aluminum has a higher coefficient of thermal expansion. So the radius of the aluminum rim should grow by a larger fraction than the length of the steel spokes which would result in a higher tension, not lower.
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Whoa...so maybe there's something to this? I wish I could remember whether my spoke retensioning tends to happen in the spring or not. But either way, I think that perhaps my heavier build, putting a heavier load on the rims, probably has something to do with this a la straws and camels' backs.
Perhaps the cold weather has frozen your brain and you are having hallucinations(just joking around).
If there was really anything to your theory, do you think you are the first to notice?
#19
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When I messed around and built a couple of wheels I did notice that the spoke tension altered when an inflated tyre was on the rim compared to a bare rim or a deflated tyre. I guessed that the inflated tyre was basically squeezing the rim smaller and the spoke tension was slightly lower.
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So what material are your spokes and your rims made of?
Assuming steel and aluminum respectively, both would expand slightly with the warmer temperature, but aluminum has a higher coefficient of thermal expansion. So the radius of the aluminum rim should grow by a larger fraction than the length of the steel spokes which would result in a higher tension, not lower.
Assuming steel and aluminum respectively, both would expand slightly with the warmer temperature, but aluminum has a higher coefficient of thermal expansion. So the radius of the aluminum rim should grow by a larger fraction than the length of the steel spokes which would result in a higher tension, not lower.
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The wheel has always been considered to be complete without any tire or tube mounted/inflated. Jobst Brandt specifically states that the wheel is ready to ride after it has been tensioned and trued in bare condition. Apparently lightweight rims and extremely tight tires (tubeless) rather than the inflation seem to be causing the extreme effects folks are now starting to observe. Perhaps also fewer spokes are too blame as the total compression due to spokes is proportional to the number of spokes when the same individual spoke tensions are used for any number of spokes. Stan's simply recommends higher spoke tensions at the outset rather than a retensioning after mounting and inflating the tire. Something new is going on apparently.
#22
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If you have problems with spoke tension due to weather change its best to put those wheels aside for a full cycle of seasons. It's like the wood you buy for your fireplace. It needs to season before you burn it. Same thing with spokes. If they are built into wheels the spokes need to season for a year. Otherwise you get spoke tensioning issues when the weather changes.
I typically build my wheels in a walk in meat freezer. Then when the wheels are exposed to the warm air outside they get a tempering. The expansion of the rim in relation to the spokes sets the ambient tension up a notch and tempers the spoke nipple creating a stiffer wheel.
I typically build my wheels in a walk in meat freezer. Then when the wheels are exposed to the warm air outside they get a tempering. The expansion of the rim in relation to the spokes sets the ambient tension up a notch and tempers the spoke nipple creating a stiffer wheel.
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If you have problems with spoke tension due to weather change its best to put those wheels aside for a full cycle of seasons. It's like the wood you buy for your fireplace. It needs to season before you burn it. Same thing with spokes. If they are built into wheels the spokes need to season for a year. Otherwise you get spoke tensioning issues when the weather changes.
I typically build my wheels in a walk in meat freezer. Then when the wheels are exposed to the warm air outside they get a tempering. The expansion of the rim in relation to the spokes sets the ambient tension up a notch and tempers the spoke nipple creating a stiffer wheel.
I typically build my wheels in a walk in meat freezer. Then when the wheels are exposed to the warm air outside they get a tempering. The expansion of the rim in relation to the spokes sets the ambient tension up a notch and tempers the spoke nipple creating a stiffer wheel.
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Edit: i just stuck a magnet to a bundle of spokes, so they very well may be ferritic stainless.
Last edited by RollCNY; 04-05-15 at 07:47 AM.
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Your math is wrong. TPI of 56 means 0.018" per revolution. When I run the worst case #'s I can imagine (70°F, alum rim & ferritic stainless spoke for expansion ∆ of 6.8*10-6 in/in°F, 11.6" radius), I get 0.000079" difference, or 1/226th of a turn. And I don't think spokes are ferritic stainless.
Edit: i just stuck a magnet to a bundle of spokes, so they very well may be ferritic stainless.
Edit: i just stuck a magnet to a bundle of spokes, so they very well may be ferritic stainless.
without 70°, 6.8e-6 * 11.6=0.00007888, your answer. So that would be per degree?
Last edited by wphamilton; 04-05-15 at 09:23 AM.