Zedmor

Hi!

I am kinda lost here, but are there a way to measure where my watts go? I mean I got normal bike (supersix on 105), I weight 160 lb, tires are 100psi (random $30 tires). But still this happends:

https://www.strava.com/activities/286847794/overview

235 watts 20 mph

To put things in perspective, here's how pro ride this crit loop (203w/27.3mph):



And how I ride this loop (291w/27.1mph):



Here's today's leaderboard:



I am F***N 39/42 with 291 watts! WAAT?

What could be a cause of that? I mean how I should start uncovering this?

Help me pls I do not want to kill myself over this!

rpenmanparker 

Wind?

I'm not familiar with your data dump. How are you measuring power?

gregf83 

Looks like the pro is better at drafting than you. 291W is quite high for sitting in at 27mph so my suspicion is that you spent a fair amount of time out of the draft. Are you riding in the drops? Are you big?

RChung

27 mph on 291 watts with cheap tires in a crit isn't bad. The bad part is 235 watts for 20 mph.

How was the 291 watt effort different from the 235 watt effort? Were they both crit races, or was the 235 watt effort solo? What kind of power meter are you using, and have you checked that it's reading right?

Zedmor

Nah. Quiet today.
Power = powertap g3. May be I should calibrate it? (if I only knew how).

Well I been sitting in the pack most of the time, then been hanging out on random wheels and then got dropped. Standard...
Riding hoods - should switch to drops 100%? weight - I am 160 lb, skinny.

Will put better tires I guess, my friend told me that I was nuts to ride tires with 27 tpi. I have 'em just have them on carbon set and that set do not have powermeter and I think powermeter > carbon wheels for analyzing. Will buy different powermeter. (I have powertap g3)

235w@20mph - I got dropped then already so was riding solo I guess.

gregf83 

If you're 160 and skinny you must be tall. Yes you should be in the drops 100% of the time. Are you in the middle of the pack or on the edges?

RChung

OK, the 291 watt effort for 27 mph means your CdA in the pack was ~0.25 m^2. For the pack, that's kinda high -- you should've been hiding more. The 235 watt effort for 20 mph means your CdA while solo was > 0.45 m^2, which is pretty terrible. Parachute territory terrible.

I'd use the PT. In the long run the data will help you more than a rear carbon wheel. Use better tires and tubes, though, and use the best front wheel you have.

chaadster

Regarding placing, if you're getting dropped by the pack, even if you're just a couple seconds behind, you could lose a whole ton of positions. In other words, it's not really that watts guarantee anything, but rather when you cross the finish line. Ride smart, as they say.

Campag4life

You need a set of $1K aero wheels. These will make you much faster. Hard to know if you can turn pro, but the ball is in your court.

Campag4life

In bold...nothing wrong with riding truck tires. The thing I like about them is their excellent puncture protection. You can ride through glass and even tire strips if running from the fuzz.

Zedmor

thanks! I always though these CdAs Crrs and so on only applies to weird guys with strange helmets who ride alone. But yet it comes.

I found that: Your Power Meter is the Best Wind Tunnel Available | Fit Werx

legit? will do. What is PT btw?

Will look out for good videos regarding that. thank you

haha. But ma', they looks like normal tires! 23 mm and so

I get it, I am terrible in all that. Well - the thing is watts is not everything is kinda good, since my vo2max could get me only like 310-320 ftp and that is nothing in real world.

valygrl

You can't compare your solo watts with someone else's drafting watts. You don't need to work on your bike, you need to work on your cornering so you don't get gapped off and chase back on at every corner. Look at the first 18 minutes, you have to chase after every corner. Waste of energy.

SO what happened there, there are 2 laps, is the first lap the race and then something else? Two races? Training race where you stopped and then got back in the pack? Was this even a race?

To calibrate your powertap, read the instructions for your computer.

RChung

CdA matters less in crits than in TT, I was using it in this case to point out that your overall effective CdA before you got dropped was still pretty high -- that's a diagnostic that you weren't hiding enough, or that you were losing it at the corners and then had to chase back on to close the gap, or that when you were hiding you were still a parachute (or all three). Crr, however, does matter in crits, so you want to use good low rolling resistance tires and tubes.

"PT" is Power Tap.

carpediemracing 

PT = powertap, i.e. your power meter.

How tall are you? What do you look like on the bike in terms of position etc? The biggest factor in aerodynamic efficiency is the rider position. If you're 160 and skinny you're probably tall? I'm not skinny, I'm your weight and 5'7".

At Tour of Somerville in 2010, Cat 2 field, I avg 175w to stay in the field, 27.5 mph. My FTP is in the 210-220w range, depending on fitness. I rarely average over 200w because I really can't go that hard. I've won races at 190w avg or less as a Cat 3.

Based on the numbers I see and numbers I see from friends/teammates I'm pretty efficient, both in aerodynamics as well as in drafting. I'm definitely compact on the bike. Short legs, long torso, so it allows me to be pretty aero on the bike. The below picture is of me (red kit, short bike, tall wheels) in the field from last weekend. I have tall wheels here, 75/90mm, but in 2010, for example, I didn't own these wheels. I had 60 mm tall wheels back then. Unfortunately I don't have power data for most of the race as one of my powermeter didn't wake up automatically but for the last 8 min I averaged 238w.


Still from this YouTube clip.

RChung

Yeah, in road races the "effective" CdA can be quite a bit lower than in crits so I wouldn't freak Zedmor out by having him think that's common in a 4-corner crit; that said, 175 watts for 27.5 mph means either you're hiding well or you're really aero -- but probably both.

himespau 

Have you seen the stem he uses? His drops are somewhere down around his quick release. Dude gets pretty low.

merlinextraligh

Knowing how to corner in a crit is huge. If you're properly placed in the pack, and can manage your effort just right (let a slight gap develop and roll into it) you can get through corners smoothly with little effort.

There's a huge difference, particularly in lower category crits, between rolling through a turn at the front, not braking, hardly slowing, and being at the back braking, and then chasing.

My bet is that this is a significant portion of the OP's issue.

Zedmor

Am I doing it right? It seems like 0.18 but may be I am not competent enough to use this. Am I using this tool correctly?



After dropped:




I am 5'10". Here's how I look on the bike (old pic but still no aero at all)




I could see what my problem is already.....

merlinextraligh

That jersey and number pinning job are costing you a few watts.

How many crits have you done? I think you'll find that it gets easier with experience. As you learn to corner, what to chase, what not to chase, how to play off the efforts of others, positioning in the pack, etc. I think you'll find you'll use less effort to hang with the same pack.

Riding in the drops for crits is definitely something you should work on. Not only will you be more aero, you'll be more stable.

Zedmor

Guys you are terrific! I am going to check couple of things right now - going to put different jersey, different set of tires and will try to do some circles around the house. I am new at all this... So sorry for my newbish questions. I never thought that losing watts is so easy really.

RChung

That tool assumes that CdA is constant and that you're not using your brakes (so that it can take account of all the forces that need to be balanced). In this case you probably used your brakes at the turns (right?) so that assumption isn't right -- but you can still calculate the "overall effective CdA" which is the CdA you would have experienced if you hadn't used your brakes and if your CdA were constant. Just move the CdA slider until the VE curve is flat. Also, since you're using a Power Tap, eta is 1.0. (If you were using a crank-based or pedal-based power meter, you'd have to take into account drive train losses. Drive train losses are typically in the neighborhood of maybe 3%, so if you were using that kind of power meter you'd set eta at 0.97).

topflightpro

Was this your first race? If so, pretty much everyone gets dropped in their first race. I wouldn't worry too much about that. You'll get better at it the more you do it.

andr0id

Haha, losing watts is insanely easy. Getting free speed is insanely hard.

One thing from your picture you posted.

Are you actually turning? Because your front wheel is slightly turned.

Some new riders have a bad habit of scrubbing the front wheel. That means you are turning a tiny bit on each pedal stroke because your upper body is not correctly isolated. You will waste a ton of power if you scrub, so try to figure out if you're doing that and fix it. It also makes everyone thing you're squirrely.

Bandera

Absolutely.
Practicing a "racing line" on open roads is suicidal.

If the only opportunity for practice is in the weekly races it will take just take experience to develop the techniques to smoothly/safely/quickly enter/exit the corners.
"Back when" a rider in our club was dropped early in their career we encouraged them to use the closed course as cornering practice rather doing a futile chase solo off the back.
Several laps to think and feel through setting up, hitting the apex and jumping smartly out paid more dividends than time trialing doggedly around.

-Bandera

carpediemracing 

I don't know the aero tool so can't comment on that.

For what it's worth a good fit not only can get you more aero but it can also enable you to recruit more muscles. You lean forward instinctively when making efforts because it recruits your glutes/etc, like on a hill. If you can recruit like that all the time it can help. You might find that after a race your glutes/butt are pretty sore. It's an indication either you raced super hard or, and this might be more likely, that you aren't recruiting those muscles during training and therefore not training them.

I have many years of base miles, I know how to draft, and I can corner reasonably well, but if I train in a non-racing position (like on the tops) then the next race or two are really difficult. I've been doing some pretty consistent but not-very-long rides and after Sunday's race I didn't feel any leg fatigue/soreness. I log all my rides on Strava, at least since May 2012, and you can see that I'm not putting in mega-miles. I try to include wattages etc and again, you can see that there aren't massive numbers anywhere.

https://app.strava.com/athletes/143064

Regarding fit. I fit a friend/teammate a number of years back. He'd been "professionally fit" but after he asked me I told him he could be more aggressive. You can see his post here. After the fitting he won his next three Tues Night Crits (which are not as formal as Sunday races but still people do go for it) and then placed 3rd in a Sunday target race he'd pinpointed the prior year as a goal. His fitness didn't change that much during that time but the position allowed him to eek more power, stability, and maybe aero benefits so his riding went up a good notch. No powermeter so no power data.

Bike position evolves as you get more fit, you have stronger glutes, a stronger back, better core, etc. Some thoughts:
Sprinter della Casa: How To - Position is a relative thing
Sprinter della Casa: Racing - Fit is a Relative Thing (my view of the fit session linked above)

There are all sorts of factors/variables/thoughts regarding fit so it would be difficult to try and give specific advice. However getting long, low, and relaxed would be a good place to start.