Bandera

Still waiting for the rubber to arrive to test them out before the traditional Spring leg-breaker route in a couple of weeks.
I have the advantage of having an old teammate who is very still competitive in our age class recommending what works for him, which is the DA 9000 version.
Staying within the constraint of budget while meeting requirements and quality standards RS-81 is for me, trickle down is good....

-Bandera

WhyFi

I'm betting that the majority of prospective buyers, when faced with a several filters, each with several drop-down options, would simply mutter something along the lines of "**** this," just before starting a new "Which wheel?" thread.

rpenmanparker 

That is what prompted this whole thread to begin with.

A kinder, gentler prod.

wphamilton

The degradation of factory molds for carbon fiber rims really does concern me. An off-brand with unknown quality control standards is more likely to stretch a few more runs from those molds. A generic brand wheel, competing on price, is more likely to utilize those rims. If those wheels are machine assembled it's likely calibrated to the original rim specs. That all seems like a crap shoot to me, and is the overriding reason that I'd be reluctant to assign top priority to price after selecting the desired component specifications.

rpenmanparker 

Uh, the disease seems to be spreading!

Cheap carbon rims with dubious quality control were excluded from the discussion a priori. Why do they keep coming up?

wphamilton

How do I have any confidence about where the rim came from, unless it's Mavic or Zipp or something? It is the unknowns in general that make recognizable brands desirable.

3alarmer 

...because the asplosion is heard 'round the world ? Sometimes, when I see another wheel thread on teh Biekforooms, I weep quietly. #justme

Psimet2001 

I'm going to try to address this in the least offensive way that I can (hopefully) as mu natural instinct is to jump on this and ask "what year do you think we're living in?"

Molds: Molds are expensive for sure but they're not as easily worn out as you may imply. They are made up of multiple parts and pieces depending on the product itself and are checked and maintained. Pieces are re-worked and/or repaired as needed. Scrapped if un-usable.

For the most part the days of re-purposing used molds is pretty much over. It takes less effort, even in China, to create a new one. What is more common is to create new molds off of existing designs.

There is no such thing as "generic" rims anymore. There are not 2 or 3 factories making rims. There's hundreds and hundreds. Each one of those factories has a name. Just because Americans tend to not be able to pronounce it doesn't mean it's not a "brand" and therefore "generic". Even within the same factory there can be huge differences in rim mold design and layup, etc.

The issues that those of us in the industry feel people should be aware of is that not all processes for carbon rim construction are the same. Some of the foam core processes can lead to really bad braking performance (delamination). In general though - there's tons of factories. Lots to choose from. The good ones have tight toleranced processes and products. Those of us who depend on those rims for our reputation and livelihood tend to stick with what we know will work.

Machine built wheels - still around, unfortunately. Most carbon sold on the premium side in the US is NOT machine built. This is the typical unending argument that threads like this also bring to light. If a wheel was simply the construction of the component parts through a process of "insert A into B and then tension then true" then it should be easily automated. This was the thought process that lead to wheel machines being initially constructed. After 40 or so years....they aren't there yet. Still. It's experiences that I have had with wheel machines and the products they produce that has firmly convinced me that they simply aren't there yet....and my previous career was in lean manufacturing and automation.

I sponsor a large amateur team with 200-300 members. They have a national contract with a large OEM. I handle that contract for them serving as a singular order point for the team, single ship to location, etc. Makes the transactions better all around. Well that OEM does also supply top level equipment that is produced on a wheel machine. I used to simply pass it though to the members. When one wanted me to glue up the tubulars one time I threw the wheel in my stand and noticed it was pinned to one side of the wide open caliper. I then went through the wheel and measured the tension on each spoke. Here's the chart:



The UCL and LCL lines are my internal control limits on a build like this. The Red line is what the rim manufacturer allows. The single black points are the machine built wheel's actual tensions. Far above and below both what we find acceptable internally and what the rim OEM allows. The wheel would have been without warranty from the OEM rim manufacturer.

FWIW - the file when sent back was reviewed with passing interest only. The sales guys who received it said, "wow...uh - I'll pass it along to our engineers."

It's now standard practice for me to re-tension and finalize all wheels coming from there.

RollCNY

I concur that this is just discussion fodder, and would respectfully submit the following RollCNY opinions:

1. Purchasing wheels is one of the most enjoyable cycling purchases one can make. More so than anything else, wheels personalize the bike. The "which stock bike" or "which groupset" threads lack the individual panache of "which wheel". I have enjoyed every wheel build that I have done with my wheel builder, and the set that I built myself.

2. If you have a defined problem, understanding and selection of the parameters you list can absolutely target that problem. If you don't have a defined problem, no set of parameters will target it. So I think almost every informed consumer is already using the parameters you list to rule in and rule out options.

3. One person's robust build is another person's substandard. I know what your preferred wheel build is, and I would never ride it. I am more voluminous than you, and the thought of a 1200g wheelset is ridiculous to my riding style and conditions. Any wheel that I select will be overbuilt in your eyes. So though we look at the same parameters, we give them different weight. This means that every parameter in your list suddenly has a subjective element that may or may not exceed the objective value.

4. Everyone values money differently, so any "value" discussion becomes meaningless quickly. I will never pay for a bladed spoke, because their marginal gains can never exceed their price delta. I don't value that. If I look at BDop's wheel builds, you can bladed spokes in the kit for the smallest price delta I have every seen (something like $40 for the wheelset). In terms of "value", that is probably the best bang for the buck I have ever seen, if you place any value on a bladed spoke. But bladed spokes aren't worth $5 a wheel set more to me personally, so price as a determinant gets muddied by "worth" and "value".

5. Is "bombproof" an attribute, because it seems to be a key characteristic of the 41 which wheel threads? I picture that many members here live in war torn countries and are concerned about IED's. I don't get the fascination with a wheel impervious to any conceivable damage. You yourself started the thread of "Has anyone ever trued a wheel, really", and in that little gem comments were made to the effect that a wheel is only good if it requires no service until the brake track wears through. I think that is unrealistic, but many people measure a good wheel by it's well nigh infinite service life. To me, if I have to true a wheel after a car hits me, that is still an excellent wheel if it rides like an excellent wheel.

Ok, I took too long to write this. I hate it when employment gets in my way. I had a pithy conclusion, but it now escapes me.

rpenmanparker 

Great post Roll, with or without the pith. Thanks.

rpenmanparker 

Great contribution to the thread Rob and much appreciated. Thanks for the chart. That really says it all.

rpenmanparker 

Besides what Rob said, one can learn of reliable "name brands" in rim manufacturers that don't tie you to a wheel brand and can save the individual consumer some money. Gigantex from Taiwan has an excellent reputation for carbon rims and is sold by Bike Hub Store. That is the one example I am familiar with.

wphamilton

As a specialist in the industry, can you tell me how, as a consumer spec'ing out each component and making the final determination by price, do I determine which factories have tight tolerance on their processes and products or whether a given assembled wheel had components produced there? Even though I accept that the practice is obsolete, how do I know that factory producing that rim, out of all the thousands of factories, is not one cutting corners with old molds? It seems reasonable that going for the absolute cheapest product of a given set of specs increases that danger, and that using professional builders and established brands would minimize the chances of it. Is that wrong?

wphamilton

So in your opinion - and as you mentioned you build wheels - knowing the "brand" of the manufacturer (or distributor if that's what they are) such as Gigantex or the other reliable name brands might be prioritized over price for a rim of given specifications?

rpenmanparker 

Sure it could. But sometimes well-regarded brands can be a bargain too. Kinlin rims are an example. The Taiwanese hubs are another example. I will look first at the lowest price, and then consider going upward until I am not getting anything more for my money, IMO. Compared to the Kinlin price I won't pay anything extra for another aluminum rim. In my opinion nobody does it better than the low price leader, Kinlin. Regarding the hubs, there may be better than Bitex from Taiwan, but they don't do anything for me that I am looking for.

On a very inexpensive build, I might be feeling wild and crazy and just take a chance. I am an experimentalist by training and career, so I kind of like taking a chance to learn what will happen. Or IOW can I qualify a supplier by my own experience? That isn't something I am going to gamble a lot of money on, but I may put a couple of hundred at risk as a hobby project.

Psimet2001 

There are a few levels in the market. After looking at it for a while you can start to find where the levels are. As a consumer you won't have a lot of information available to you when you go scrapping the bottom on the price barrell. If there was more information available they probably wouldn't still be at that price point. Doesn't say one way or another anything about the actual product, just says - you're just not going to know. You've got the option to hope that someone else will be the guinea pig and right about it in a place that's easy to find....and then hope all the rest are the same.

wphamilton

That fairly expresses my counter-point to rpenmanparker's discussion/opinion. The potential drawbacks due to the unknowns are ameliorated by prioritizing known brand names over price, which is in contradiction with his thesis. I was concerned about cutting costs with molds - that's not a big concern as you point out but you mention other concerns, which will also be unknowns for even an informed consumer buying wheels.

Psimet2001 

Kinlin does a fantastic job for sure. I have loved building with thousands of their rims, but they aren't the end all of aluminum rims. There are others out there that are great rims and for certain applications garner a higher value in their application.

To the points of the discussion in general - a lot of my peers/competitors a bunch of years back were all doing the same thing. We were finding what we wanted to have work and putting together what we felt were the best component parts for a particular application and then selling them. The problem then becomes - you've reduced the wheel to a commodity (your assertion to begin with) as far as the consumer is concerned and not only is there little to no way to differentiate yourself in the market anymore but it becomes the proverbial race to the bottom - price wise.

You'd be amazed at how little price elasticity or even spec elasticity there is when you start talking spec's on a wheel. "Oh...kinlin novatech with dt comps? here's 3 builders who sell that....here's the cheapest". "So that rim you're proposing we use isn't a HED C2? hmmm....the internet and my shop told me I should get a HED C2 so just what's your price on the build with a HED C2?"

Most of my peers took to that next natural step by making something that wasn't readily available off the shelf from others. If you notice - all the hubs are now mostly different (looking). The rims are now in all sorts of depths and widths. Everyone had a justification to their reasoning (this forum likes to simply brush that off as marketing), but the real and undeniable purpose is to stop cold the general practice by forum type consumers to try to group together what the builder sees as value into categories of products that simply become a commodity.

In doing so those peers that used to be actual builders moved up to become baby "brands". "This is all ours - no one has anything like this" and they occupied a level of pricing in the market that is near double what they used to be able to manage when simply building spec's. This has actually forced the "premium brands" higher in the market as a way of still staying "the best". What has fundamentally changed on a Zipp 404 in the last 15 years? Nothing much. A little bit of width...a bad case of acne, crappy hub iterations....and yet the MSRP has gone from right around $1700-$1800 to $2700-$3k? ENVE has plopped itself in the $3k+ range. How else to they differentiate from these "baby brands"?

We've done a lot of thinking about the market, how builders and brands are positioning themselves and what the net result to the cyclist is. We obviously feel there is still room for premium builders in between the Bottom of the barrell commodity pop-metal flooding out of China, and the baby brands and that's where we are going to try and stay. The "millennial" consumer market tends to go more for what a company is and what it believes in (causes/craftsmanship, etc) that tends to fight against the mass commoditization of cycling markets but they too have a limit - their wallet.

...did that answer a question? sorry...

rpenmanparker 

Rob, I do see how that works. I, for one, think your niche is sustainable. I have no expectation of folks taking my advice.