Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Wheel Set for Heavy Guy

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Wheel Set for Heavy Guy

Old 05-01-15, 01:20 PM
  #51  
Senior Member
 
Jarrett2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: DFW
Posts: 4,126

Bikes: Steel 1x's

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 632 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
That's 1.36 lbs lighter than your current wheelset for well under $600 to your door.
Jarrett2 is offline  
Old 05-01-15, 01:24 PM
  #52  
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,373

Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3078 Post(s)
Liked 1,631 Times in 1,005 Posts
Man, am I glad I entered the online world at the tail end of Brandt's activity period, because I think that guy was just not credible on so much, and I know we'd have butted heads a lot.
chaadster is offline  
Old 05-01-15, 01:27 PM
  #53  
Speechless
 
RollCNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Central NY
Posts: 8,842

Bikes: Felt Brougham, Lotus Prestige, Cinelli Xperience,

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 163 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 39 Times in 16 Posts
Originally Posted by Mr IGH
No engineering principal support this myth. In fact, quite the opposite, a thinner spoke flexes the wheel system more and will cause the wheel to go out of true more easily. It can be proven through simple superposition or by computer simulation and has been.

If you want/need a strong/stiffer wheel, go with 2.0 straight gauge over butted 2.0/1.8. It's the law!
No disrespect intended, but I do not believe it to be as cut and dried as you state:

1. A wheel goes out of true for a spoke related issue for only two reasons: the spoke sees plastic deformation or nipple unscrews. Either spoke can make a wheel free from these conditions if built properly.

2. A 2.0mm 14 gauge straight spoke has 23% more area than a 2.0/1.8mm spoke, but 15-20% less ultimate strength. Straight gauge spokes do not have the work hardening benefits of the butted spoke. Real load carrying capacity is very similar between the two.

3. By your superposition argument, a 3.0mm spoke would be stronger than a 2.0mm, a 6.0mm stronger still, and a solid steel wheel strongest yet. But every first year statics class teaches you to solve the problem at hand, to the specified factor of safety. My statics teacher sought the answer that meant using the least amount of material that meets or exceeds the design parameters. So the true question for spokes is are they strong enough? In my experience and exposure, 2.0/1.8mm spokes, in the right quantity, can build wheels that will remain true to the expected duty cycle.

Also note, I have no experience with Sapim Lasers (2.0/1.5mm), but those things seem pretty damn flimsy to me.

Again, no discourtesy intended, only civil discussion.
RollCNY is offline  
Old 05-01-15, 01:34 PM
  #54  
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
rpenmanparker, Where are your results to make such a claim? No empirical or theoretical explanation supports such a claim.

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
Okay, stiffer, stronger wheel, but why more durable against stresses that don't exceed the strength characteristics of the wheel?...
This statement doesn't have any foundation in engineering. More flex causes fatigue, fatigue leads to failure. A stiffer wheel flexes less and is more resistant to permanent deflections. Telling a Clyde to use double butted spokes so the wheel will "better" is wrong and not rooted in any engineering principals. The simplest engineering explanation is the engineering principal of superposition. A wheel is a linear system, superposition applies. Others have run computer simulation to get the same result.

Superposition: google is your friend:
Superposition principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by Mr IGH; 05-01-15 at 01:51 PM.
Mr IGH is offline  
Old 05-01-15, 01:40 PM
  #55  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tulsa OK
Posts: 2,076
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
My wife and I use the superposition alot. Wait what were we talking about?
therhodeo is offline  
Old 05-01-15, 01:41 PM
  #56  
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by RollCNY
By your superposition argument, a 3.0mm spoke would be stronger than a 2.0mm, a 6.0mm stronger still, and a solid steel wheel strongest yet. But every first year statics class teaches you to solve the problem at hand, to the specified factor of safety....
I agree but if the rider is having issues, perhaps it's under-designed? And if a rider wants maximum longevity and resistance to permanent deflection then an extra 1gm per spoke is not much cost.

The subject is about a clyde wheel, that's why I chimed in. I'm 220lbs and I use DB spokes on my roadie wheels because they ride nicer. But on my touring bike and dual suspension 29'er it's straight gauge all the way.

Last edited by Mr IGH; 05-01-15 at 01:48 PM.
Mr IGH is offline  
Old 05-01-15, 01:46 PM
  #57  
Speechless
 
RollCNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Central NY
Posts: 8,842

Bikes: Felt Brougham, Lotus Prestige, Cinelli Xperience,

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 163 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 39 Times in 16 Posts
Originally Posted by Mr IGH
I agree but if the rider is having issues, perhaps it's under-designed? And if a rider wants maximum longevity and resistance to permanent deflection then an extra 1gm per spoke is not much cost.
As a Clyde with many wheelsets, I can't remember ever cursing at the overbuilt ones...
RollCNY is offline  
Old 05-01-15, 01:59 PM
  #58  
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by chaadster
Man, am I glad I entered the online world at the tail end of Brandt's activity period, because I think that guy was just not credible on so much, and I know we'd have butted heads a lot.
I presented my questions about his claims to him in person, at the Palo Alto Bike Shop in the fall of 1986. I had read his book and asked/challenged him about "standing on a spoke" claim and the "DB is gooder" claim. He was kinda speechless, I guess he wasn't used to defending his claims. To this day, he's never given any engineering explanation beyond what's in the book. I've since met a fellow rider/engineer and he had the same result using finite analysis, Josbt got all pissed at him too. Never defended his claims, just attacked him (just as he did to me in '86).
Mr IGH is offline  
Old 05-01-15, 02:49 PM
  #59  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times in 861 Posts
Buy an extra set . so you have a backup.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 05-01-15, 03:09 PM
  #60  
L-I-V-I-N
 
dtrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Stafford, OR
Posts: 4,801
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
rp, unless you also can post a Wikipedia link...I might have to side with Mr IGH.
__________________
"The older you do get, the more rules they're gonna try to get you to follow. You just gotta keep livin', man, L-I-V-I-N." - Wooderson

'14 carbon Synapse - '12 CAAD 10 5 - '99 Gary Fisher Big Sur
dtrain is offline  
Old 05-01-15, 04:07 PM
  #61  
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by dtrain
rp, unless you also can post a Wikipedia link...I might have to side with Mr IGH.
Ya gotta do whatcha gotta do. But I'm sticking with Brandt. He has been too reliable for me to abandon him based on internet chatter.
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 05-01-15, 06:00 PM
  #62  
Senior Member
 
ussprinceton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Durham, NC 27705 USA
Posts: 1,076

Bikes: '18 S-Works Tarmac (white letters), '18 S-Works Tarmac (black letters), '22 Allez Elite, '16 Emonda SL, '03 fuel100, '14 adventure3

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 66 Posts
Shimano RS11
ussprinceton is offline  
Old 05-02-15, 07:42 AM
  #63  
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
I'm sticking with Brandt. He has been too reliable for me to abandon him based on internet chatter.
"Internet chatter", LOL. One thing you can be proud of is that neither you or Josbt knows what superposition is or how to apply it to real world engineering tasks, ironic!
Mr IGH is offline  
Old 05-02-15, 08:04 AM
  #64  
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,373

Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3078 Post(s)
Liked 1,631 Times in 1,005 Posts
Originally Posted by Mr IGH
I presented my questions about his claims to him in person, at the Palo Alto Bike Shop in the fall of 1986. I had read his book and asked/challenged him about "standing on a spoke" claim and the "DB is gooder" claim. He was kinda speechless, I guess he wasn't used to defending his claims. To this day, he's never given any engineering explanation beyond what's in the book. I've since met a fellow rider/engineer and he had the same result using finite analysis, Josbt got all pissed at him too. Never defended his claims, just attacked him (just as he did to me in '86).
Interesting. My first doubts about his objectivity and committment to reason arose from the way he attacked people questioning him in some of the old mailing list threads. I wonder if you were among them? Probably, huh?!

Anyway, I wrote him off as a pseudo-scientific retrogrouch blowhard long ago...probably after reading my second issue of Bicycle Quarterly!
chaadster is offline  
Old 05-02-15, 08:09 AM
  #65  
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by chaadster
... I wonder if you were among them? Probably, huh?!!
No, I only spoke with him that one time. I'm a professional, degreed engineer, I recognize a BS' er as part of my job. Thankfully I didn't have to waste any time on him, there's no need to, not being paid to fix that kinda stupid.
Mr IGH is offline  
Old 05-02-15, 08:33 AM
  #66  
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by Mr IGH
"Internet chatter", LOL. One thing you can be proud of is that neither you or Josbt knows what superposition is or how to apply it to real world engineering tasks, ironic!
You are right. I am not an engineer and have only encountered the technological use of the term "superposition" in a different context. That would be the varying of one parameter that is convenient to work with to produce effects in a body that can be attributed to a different less convenient variable. For example accelerated aging of materials is an example of time-temperature superposition and uses higher temperature to speed up the aging process. Or it could use higher oxygen pressure to similarly accelerate the aging. Having only a scientist's acquaintance with engineering, I mistakenly assumed that was what you were referring to.

But getting back to the nitty gritty of this discussion you cannot discredit Brandt's position by a "he said, he said" argument. If you want to challenge his teaching on the basis of its lack of factual support, you have to bring forward your own details. You can't reasonably call him out for showing no evidence on the basis of your doing exactly the same thing. I am open to considering your argument, but you have to show it to me. And saying that some other unnamed engineer agrees with you just doesn't cut it. Either you make the argument or you don't. In the absence of a better representation of your position, a well-regarded authority like Brandt has to win. And the fact that he can frequently be a pompous ass really doesn't nullify his technical achievements. In the scientific publishing community, BS like you are talking just lands in the circular file.
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ
No matter where I go, here I am...

Last edited by rpenmanparker; 05-02-15 at 08:38 AM.
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 05-02-15, 09:02 AM
  #67  
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
I already made the argument, any trained engineer understands it (though in my experience it seems only mechanical and electrical engineers understand engineering superposition and how to use it). Not every engineering concept is able to be understood by a layperson...and for josbt being highly regarded, that is an opinion that many trained engineers would dispute....
Mr IGH is offline  
Old 05-02-15, 09:09 PM
  #68  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 588

Bikes: Gary Fisher Hi-Fi Deluxe, Giant Stance, Cannondale Synapse, Diamondback 8sp IGH, 1989 Merckx

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
230# + bike = 260# ready to ride. My wheel set is a Shimano RS10 with 16/20 spokes.

4K or so miles with no problems. None. However, I've never hit a pothole, jumped a curb or anything like that. The roads around here are smooth. If I were to consider another set of wheels it would be the Shimano Ultegra 6800s because they are lighter. I have enormous respect for Shimano's engineering and construction quality; their wheels are superb.

I plan on building a loaded tourer starting with a Surly Disc Trucker frame. I'll use Shimano MTB wheels for that.

I have a lot of experience in the motorcycle world including their wheels. Before motorcycles, I studied, built & tuned bicycle wheels. My experience indicates that broken spokes are almost always a result of flexing at the elbow of the 'J' bend. This flexing, in turn, is due to loose spokes. By loose I mean that the spoke elbow can and does move in the hub's spoke hole causing large peak loads that can quickly fatigue an already stressed and perhaps weakened part of the spoke.
A sufficiently tensioned wheel does not allow relative movement between the spoke head (elbow/J-bend) and the spoke hole and its spokes do not break.

Harley-Davidson uses J-bend spokes and has had more than a little trouble with their aluminum-hubed wheels breaking them. First, they were not tensioning the spokes enough to prevent load cycling movement and, secondly, the soft alloy hubs were deforming around the spoke holes such that the spokes were losing tension. They never had this problem with their old steel hubs.

On the other hand, I have never, ever seen a BMW with loose spokes, never had to true one and I have been working on them for more than fifty years. All BMW wheels use straight spokes with no bends (we used to call them 'nail-head' spokes). All BMW wheels use aluminum hubs and rims. All of them have (or had) a small steel reinforcing plate between the spoke head and hub. They are the most reliable motorcycle wheels I know of.

I do not believe that my 16/20-spoked wheels would carry my fat (230#) ass around if they were made with J-bend spokes. In any case, I have no intention of personally discovering the truth of the matter. If I wish to add flex to my wheels, I'll do it with spoke diameter selection and cross pattern, not wiggling the J-bend in a hub's spoke hole. Straight spokes are superior to those with bent ends in a couple of ways, but, are not versatile. Straight spokes cannot be mixed and matched between hubs & rims; the hubs, rims and spokes must be machined to fit together.

Joe

Oh Yeah, regarding Jobst: He got most things right but not all. I can't understand how he thinks gyroscopic forces have little more than a minor roll in bicycle stability. He was occasionally bone-headed.

Last edited by Joe Minton; 05-02-15 at 10:20 PM.
Joe Minton is offline  
Old 05-05-15, 03:17 PM
  #69  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: McKinney, TX
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks for the comments on the Laser spokes. To be honest I didnt even pay attention to the spoke sizing when I ordered. Saw CX Ray made from Laser and I grabbed the Laser.

I stepped up to the Sapim Force spokes. 2.18-1.8-2.0 butting. They will an advantage over the lasers in deformation for a given load (~30% less deformation), and according to Sapim (?) data fatigue life second to the CX-Ray. Image below is sourced from the FLO site.

If the data im finding randomly is correct, the fatigue test is ~400 lb load at 10 hz for a single spoke. My Garmin says my wheel circumference is 2124mm, or ~6.9 ft. 30 mph = 44 feet/sec, so 6.4 Hz for comparison.

I want these wheels to be pretty stout, the Laser would probably be fine, but I stepped up a bit.





[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]Type[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]Weight (x64@260mm)[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]Strength[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]Fatique life (revolutions)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 154"]Zinc[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]424g[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]950-1050n/mm2[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]700,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 154"]Leader[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]421g[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]1080-1180n/mm2[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]870,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 154"]Strong[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]430g[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]1400n/mm2[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]1.6 million[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 154"]Force[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]368g[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]1350n/mm2[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]2 million[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 154"]Race[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]360g[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]1350n/mm2[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]980,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 154"]D-Light[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]309g[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]1300n/mm2[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 154"]Laser[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]279g[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]1500n/mm2[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]1.25 million[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 154"]CX[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]423g[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]1200n/mm2[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]To be announced[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 154"]CX-Ray[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]272g[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]1600n/mm2[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]3.5 million[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 154"]Super spoke[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]231g[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]To be announced[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]To be announced[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 154"]CX Super[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]To be announced[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]To be announced[/TD]
[TD="width: 154"]To be announced[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Last edited by kafreeman; 05-05-15 at 04:00 PM.
kafreeman is offline  
Old 05-05-15, 04:57 PM
  #70  
Senior Member
 
loimpact's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,337

Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Supersix Evo 3; 2014 Cannondale Quick 4; 2014 Cannondale Crash 4 hi-mod

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Interesting data.

I know I was recently reading the November Wheels website and noticed they don't seem to give much credence to CX-Ray vs Laser (at least not in performance) and so choose to push Lasers almost exclusively.

(shrug)
loimpact is offline  
Old 05-05-15, 08:40 PM
  #71  
Redefining Lazy
 
Slackerprince's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North Metro, MN
Posts: 1,923

Bikes: 2013 Cannondale Synapse 5 105, 2013 Giant Escape 3

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Joe Minton
230# + bike = 260# ready to ride. My wheel set is a Shimano RS10 with 16/20 spokes.

4K or so miles with no problems. None. However, I've never hit a pothole, jumped a curb or anything like that. The roads around here are smooth. If I were to consider another set of wheels it would be the Shimano Ultegra 6800s because they are lighter. I have enormous respect for Shimano's engineering and construction quality; their wheels are superb.
I ride a Synapse with Shimano RS10 wheels, as well.
I'm (unfortunately) 230# and have almost 5000 miles on mine and they are straight as a pin.
Great wheels, for stock.


S
Slackerprince is offline  
Old 05-05-15, 10:55 PM
  #72  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 571
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Mr IGH
A stiffer wheel flexes less and is more resistant to permanent deflections.
Consider an uncooked piece of angel hair and a piece of paper of identical dimensions.

The uncooked pasta is obviously stiffer than the paper. However, it's not more resistant to permanent deflections. If you flex the pasta past a certain point it's not going to return. It breaks. However the paper will not break like the pasta.

----

Stiffness refers to the elastic deformation of something. If something is stiff, it resists elastic deformation. The pasta is stiff. It takes considerably more effort to flex the pasta at all versus the paper. Hell, I'd bet that a breeze could flex a piece of paper that has the same dimensions of a piece of angle hair.

Strength refers to resistance to permanent deformation. The paper will be stronger than the pasta. You can apply a lot more force to the paper than the pasta without the paper suddenly snapping in half.

----

Originally Posted by Mr IGH
This statement doesn't have any foundation in engineering


I assume you must be referring to your own post, correct?

Last edited by Deontologist; 05-05-15 at 11:02 PM.
Deontologist is offline  
Old 05-05-15, 11:18 PM
  #73  
Senior Member
 
MikesChevelle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Boise
Posts: 702
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I am the same height and weight, now I feel fat
MikesChevelle is offline  
Old 05-06-15, 03:20 AM
  #74  
Senior Member
 
November Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 26 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by loimpact
Interesting data.

I know I was recently reading the November Wheels website and noticed they don't seem to give much credence to CX-Ray vs Laser (at least not in performance) and so choose to push Lasers almost exclusively.

(shrug)
You're right, we do advocate Lasers in a lot of builds and have them as standard in our new Nimbus Ti alloy builds. The functional difference between Lasers and CX Rays, which we have tested more or less as well as can reasonably be done, is a quite small amount of aerodynamic gain. We don't even see weight differences as big as the 7 grams per 60 spokes shown in the chart. In aerodynamically oriented wheels, which are almost always carbon and thus cost more, it seems a mistake to give back that gain when the spokes are a relatively lesser component of the overall wheel cost. In a set of every day alloys, which can be quite competent aerodynamically (we've also tested that), increasing the price of a set by 14% to get that small aerodynamic gain didn't make sense. So we've made Lasers the standard and kept CX Rays as an option on those builds.

You have to consider that a spoke doesn't cycle load on every revolution. A properly spec'd and built wheel should have spokes that cycle load (go slack and then return to tension) only on very rare occasions. The cycles to failure shown in the chart represent about 60 hours of riding assuming a cycle on every wheel revolution. If the chart represented mean time to failure or anything like it, the wheels I'm currently using (which have Laser spokes) should have failed by now if I'd started using them sometime around St. Patrick's Day. Instead they are in brand new condition.

An illustration I've often done is to line up a Race, Laser, and CX Ray spoke, each standing up. I ask a person to push straight down on each until the spoke bends in the middle. What happens is they say "ouch" with the Race and it doesn't bend, they say "ouch" with the Laser but it does bend, and the CX Ray bends. Each spoke has the same properties at the ends, but the Laser and CX Ray's willingness to bend in the middle absorbs that cycle load and protects the end of the spoke, which is where spokes break from cycle fatigue. The other spokes that perform well in cycle fatigue on that chart have more metal at the spoke end, and also weigh significantly more, than a Laser or CX Ray. But if the wheel builder does his/her job correctly, and the wheel isn't ridden beyond what it's spec'd for, cycle fatigue is likely to come into play only after the rim is toast, the bike is replaced, 13 speed cassettes come out, or some other such thing.

We also maintain a belief that spokes are an efficient way to make a wheel strong. You can use heavier rims and spokes with more mass and make a low spoke wheel that's strong enough for heavy guys, totally. You can buy a wheel with 3 spokes that will hold up GREAT for heavy guys. We'd just prefer to build someone like the OP a 28/32 set (or perhaps 24/28) that weighs the better part of a pound less than the wheels that Joe M advocates, has some built in redundancy in terms of if a spoke should happen to break, has quite good aerodynamics, and uses parts that are and will be readily available into the foreseeable future. We've built a ton of them and we know they last a long long time and make for happy riders. Our approach isn't what everyone wants, though. We respect that and are totally fine with it.

Last edited by November Dave; 05-06-15 at 03:23 AM. Reason: man am i long winded, sorry
November Dave is offline  
Old 05-06-15, 04:21 AM
  #75  
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,373

Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3078 Post(s)
Liked 1,631 Times in 1,005 Posts
@November Dave have you looked at the CX? It seems like a top choice for a clyde wheel, especially a 28h rear, given the extra width and thickness over the CX-Ray while retaining the forged aero shaping characteristics.

I don't think the CX is new-- I don't follow the spoke world closely-- but it sure is overlooked, playing in the shadow of the CX-Ray, but while offering advantages for bigger, stronger riders.

What are your thoughts on the CX?
chaadster is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.