redlude97

why is custom steel being compared to mass produced CF again? There are hand built custom CF frames as well, made by "artisans".

D1andonlyDman

Which of those are easily affordable by most riders? Because I recently bought a beautiful lightly used steel frame (a Paramount Series 7) that rides as good as the day it was made, for $120. I am damn sure that it's a better frame - even on objective metrics - let alone aesthetic ones, than ANY CF frame in the world that I can buy new or used for $120.

PepeM

About carbon being bad. Or aluminum. Or steel. Or mass production. I don't know anymore.

redlude97

After comparing a timex to a $10k watch, why does price all of a sudden matter?

D1andonlyDman

I didn't say that I would buy a $10,000 watch. Just that I appreciate it's merits on an aesthetic basis. There are also $300,000 watches. Which I could not buy even if I wanted to.

BTW, I DO own some very beautiful counterfeits of $10,000 watches. I bought them for under $100 each because they can fool most people, but I am under no illusions that they contain the same level of craftsmanship of the models that they are knock-offs of.

The point is, among serious cyclists, at least 99% of the CF bikes out there being ridden today are NOT custom CF bikes, they are mass-produced CF bikes.
Conversely, among serious cyclists who ride steel bikes, I would say that the majority of them ARE custom hand built frames that have been either re-purposed by new owners or are being ridden by the original owner for whom it was custom made.

So just about all the CF bikes one encounters in the real world are NOT custom frames, but rather, mass produced frames. Not the case presently with steel bikes, among the serious cycling community. So what I'm comparing is the realistic alternatives as I see them. And custom CF is not such a realistic alternative, whereas getting a hand-built steel frame, or a mass produced CF frame, are realistic alternatives.

Seattle Forrest

How boring work is?

RPK79

Wut?

dtrain

And I just bought a complete carbon bike (w/ 105) for $100.

WhyFi

Lower prices on the secondary market are an indicator of a better, more desirable product. Here I thought you were an accountant. Sheesh.

Marcus_Ti

No we'll all just be unemployed...kind of like what is starting to happen now

Because at the end of the day you're talking about a plastic good. "Carbon Fiber" is simply shorthand for "carbon fiber reinforced plastic". And the stuff while amazing to work with it isn't that amazing after the initial newness joy wears off. How many "classic" carbon fiber bikes are there? Maybe the original Kestrel Talon, and that is only because it is one of the first good ones that was durable and didn't fall apart after a few years. Why do many many CF race bike owners start asking about "should I get a new bike" after only 2 or 3 years?

Because plastic goods simply don't have the artisan soul of say a hand-welded bike, and being mass-produced are about as inherently artisan as a milk jug.

D1andonlyDman

Secondary markets are all about supply and demand.

In the case of steel frames on the secondary market, the factor driving low cost relative to quality is a function of there being a vast oversupply from more than 50+ years of production. In terms of CF frames, what drives the prices in the secondary market is the perception that used CF frames are either worn out or damaged, and hence, high risk.

The fact that MOST folks are not looking for a steel frame, and there are decades and decades of inventory out there, means supply vastly imbalances against demand. In the secondary market for CF frames, the supply of used frames that have no perceived quality issues is diminishingly small.

Seattle Forrest

Show me an 800 year old metal bike, and then we'll agree you have a point.

Seattle Forrest

Because they can afford one. They enjoy spending money. They got a bike, realized they love cycling, and want a better bike. They want to try riding on dirt. They feel like gears are complicated and it would be heaven not to have any. Or because they keep reading this forum and want to keep up with the Joneses. Basically all the same reasons people who own metal bikes go out and buy another bike.

WhyFi

Too easy. Moving on. Good luck.

Marcus_Ti

Huh?

In 10-15 years, the current CF bikes will not even have their names remembered. I can't even remember the name of the first production CF bike that now-banned Armstrong won TdF on OTTOMH, and those kinds of historical instances should be the simplest...in 20 the frames will probably all be in the landfill. How well do CF frames keep their resale value? They don't. I don't know what you're on about 800 years for, people still look back fondly on 50s and 60 steel bikes.

D1andonlyDman

I always get a chuckle about folks who bail on a disagreement by claiming it would be too easy to prevail had they continued. That being said, contrarians generally do better than mainstream followers of fashion in terms of reaping value in secondary markets.

Seattle Forrest

You don't see 50 and 60 year old carbon fiber bikes because they weren't making carbon fiber bikes 50 and 60 years ago. Just like you don't see 800 year old metal bikes because ... wait for it ... they weren't making bikes 800 years ago. If you think a steel bike is more artsy or reminds you of Iron Man or whatever, that's fine, but I don't think it's a valid reason to complain that nobody has gone back in time and made a carbon fiber bike in 1965.

rpenmanparker 

But that was my point!

rpenmanparker 

How ridiculous! How is steel more artistic than plastic a priori? There is a whole class of antique plastic jewelry that is very highly regarded by collectors. There may be the same for steel, but I am not aware of it.

jimblairo

This is a good example of "offer you can't refuse". The bike builder, Genesis, is a "steel brand". Sort of like Surly or Gunnar. So, the team will ride steel bikes.[/QUOTE]


The article states that the bikes are road race quality and constructed from 953 stainless. They were being talked about during the Tour of Yorkshire. Good luck to them.
I believe the bike weight is 7.3 KG.

rpenmanparker 

You have no objective basis for that conclusion, because none exists.

Marcus_Ti

CFRP bikes won't be sought after in 50 or 60 years is my point.

Just like no one seeks out and collects bottom-dollar pine-wood furniture from 1900. Stuff was cheap stuff back then and is cheap now. Plastic is the bottom dollar material of our day. How many people seek out 1940s plywood furniture? No one. Stuff was cheap and utilitarian then and cheaper and more utilitarian now, it became dominant due to real wood shortages.

Because it was hard to make and hard to engineer back in the day. Same reason why aluminum "silverware" was thoroughly amazing and having it was a symbol of fantastic wealth back in the end of the 1800s. Aluminum was incredibly hard to refine and produce (requires a crapload of electricity, which back then was also extremely hard to get), and the result lasts forever and didn't tarnish. Aluminum for much of the 19th century was more valuable than gold. Plastic is the material of the last 30-50 years. Everything has come to be made out of the stuff, and it is as intrinsically valuable and artisan a material as plywood. Like I said. Milk jugs. Also all the stuff is mass-produced in China and then resold at incredibly stiff profit margins, something we've come to be rather sore about sending all the US jobs and manufacturing to.

AlmostTrick

I want my next bike to be chiseled out of a block of steel by a true artisan.

Yes, and it's so when the bike gets nicked/scratched/damaged in normal use or from a minor drop/crash the cyclist has to buy a new one, of course. Having bikes last 20-30 (or more) years is not good for business.

StanSeven

This statement is getting very, very old. I have two CF bikes, a steel, an aluminum, and just sold a Ti. I am actually pretty careless with the way I treat all and have at least crashed all, in at least minor mishaps. The CF are no worse than the others. The only material I ever had to scrap is aluminum.

rpenmanparker 

Why are you confounding the discussion with used frames. How does a new custom steel frame compare in price to a new custom carbon one? I honestly don't know the answer.