When will carbon bikes fall out of favor?
05-06-15, 05:43 PM
#176
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CFRP bikes won't be sought after in 50 or 60 years is my point.
Just like no one seeks out and collects bottom-dollar pine-wood furniture from 1900. Stuff was cheap stuff back then and is cheap now. Plastic is the bottom dollar material of our day. How many people seek out 1940s plywood furniture? No one. Stuff was cheap and utilitarian then and cheaper and more utilitarian now, it became dominant due to real wood shortages.
Because it was hard to make and hard to engineer back in the day. Same reason why aluminum "silverware" was thoroughly amazing and having it was a symbol of fantastic wealth back in the end of the 1800s. Aluminum was incredibly hard to refine and produce (requires a crapload of electricity, which back then was also extremely hard to get), and the result lasts forever and didn't tarnish. Aluminum for much of the 19th century was more valuable than gold. Plastic is the material of the last 30-50 years. Everything has come to be made out of the stuff, and it is as intrinsically valuable and artisan a material as plywood. Like I said. Milk jugs. Also all the stuff is mass-produced in China and then resold at incredibly stiff profit margins, something we've come to be rather sore about sending all the US jobs and manufacturing to.
Just like no one seeks out and collects bottom-dollar pine-wood furniture from 1900. Stuff was cheap stuff back then and is cheap now. Plastic is the bottom dollar material of our day. How many people seek out 1940s plywood furniture? No one. Stuff was cheap and utilitarian then and cheaper and more utilitarian now, it became dominant due to real wood shortages.
Because it was hard to make and hard to engineer back in the day. Same reason why aluminum "silverware" was thoroughly amazing and having it was a symbol of fantastic wealth back in the end of the 1800s. Aluminum was incredibly hard to refine and produce (requires a crapload of electricity, which back then was also extremely hard to get), and the result lasts forever and didn't tarnish. Aluminum for much of the 19th century was more valuable than gold. Plastic is the material of the last 30-50 years. Everything has come to be made out of the stuff, and it is as intrinsically valuable and artisan a material as plywood. Like I said. Milk jugs. Also all the stuff is mass-produced in China and then resold at incredibly stiff profit margins, something we've come to be rather sore about sending all the US jobs and manufacturing to.
05-06-15, 06:05 PM
#177
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Because when I buy a bike, the used market is vastly more relevant to me than the new market, since that's certainly what I'd be buying at any price point into the multiple thousands of dollars. And in any case, I already stated that my criteria is how much enjoyment I personally can get out of any bike at a given cost point. And used steel wins that particular comparison with ease. It wins compared to any other material either new or used.
05-06-15, 06:11 PM
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CFRP bikes won't be sought after in 50 or 60 years is my point.
Just like no one seeks out and collects bottom-dollar pine-wood furniture from 1900. Stuff was cheap stuff back then and is cheap now. Plastic is the bottom dollar material of our day. How many people seek out 1940s plywood furniture? No one. Stuff was cheap and utilitarian then and cheaper and more utilitarian now, it became dominant due to real wood shortages.
Just like no one seeks out and collects bottom-dollar pine-wood furniture from 1900. Stuff was cheap stuff back then and is cheap now. Plastic is the bottom dollar material of our day. How many people seek out 1940s plywood furniture? No one. Stuff was cheap and utilitarian then and cheaper and more utilitarian now, it became dominant due to real wood shortages.
05-06-15, 06:38 PM
#179
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I've had the following 3 bikes either back to back or at the same time
1) 1999 Lemond Zurich - steel. Weight: 20.5 lbs
2) Specialized Roubaix - carbon. Weight 18 lbs
3) Lynskey R230 - Titanium. Weight 16.3 lbs
Of course this is subjective, but the Roubaix, which I have seen people rave about was a distant 3rd in terms of ride quality and "feel". The 2 metal bikes both felt much more alive and fun. The Carbon bike was so uninspiring and lifeless. I couldn't wait to get rid of it. Bought it used for $1600 and sold it for $1750. Used the money to put dura ace wheels and Campy Record on my Lynskey. That bike is superior in every way.
I'm not completely off the idea of carbon. I just built up a "Tomasso" (generic chinese frame pretty much) carbon with the old Centuar parts and Wildcat wheels I had layiong around and it will be my light touring / work commuting bike. I won't be riding it for thrills.
1) 1999 Lemond Zurich - steel. Weight: 20.5 lbs
2) Specialized Roubaix - carbon. Weight 18 lbs
3) Lynskey R230 - Titanium. Weight 16.3 lbs
Of course this is subjective, but the Roubaix, which I have seen people rave about was a distant 3rd in terms of ride quality and "feel". The 2 metal bikes both felt much more alive and fun. The Carbon bike was so uninspiring and lifeless. I couldn't wait to get rid of it. Bought it used for $1600 and sold it for $1750. Used the money to put dura ace wheels and Campy Record on my Lynskey. That bike is superior in every way.
I'm not completely off the idea of carbon. I just built up a "Tomasso" (generic chinese frame pretty much) carbon with the old Centuar parts and Wildcat wheels I had layiong around and it will be my light touring / work commuting bike. I won't be riding it for thrills.
05-06-15, 07:08 PM
#180
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Off site manufacturing of fully individualized high quality products whether a chaise lounge or a TT bike delivered directly to the customer are what I envisage.
Biological data capture & power metrics could be done in a sophisticated center that contracts with manufactures for high end products like a race bike or by an in home product for coffee cups.
In the near future mass produced products will be viewed as quaint, old fashioned and endearing relics of a an unsophisticated age.
-Bandera
Biological data capture & power metrics could be done in a sophisticated center that contracts with manufactures for high end products like a race bike or by an in home product for coffee cups.
In the near future mass produced products will be viewed as quaint, old fashioned and endearing relics of a an unsophisticated age.
-Bandera
Seriously, the problem I have with that is that it assumes that meaningful qualities are readily quantified, and that capture-able biological data is what matters. Heck, people can get custom tailored clothes all day long if they want, and they aren't necessarily more expensive than what they get off-the rack. But do they? No. Most of the time, most people are pretty indifferent to fit - a general approximation is sufficient. I'll grant that customization has undeniable advantages, but the fact is, a lot of people aren't interested and frankly prefer uniformity to individualization.
05-06-15, 07:14 PM
#181
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I don't have a carbon frame. I've only ridden Steel and Aluminum.
Once Carbon gets within my price range, I might snag one.
But, after having RB-1 snap at the Downtube/Headtube junction because of rust, and having another vintage frame I gave to a friend [A 531 Vulcan, lovely ride] snap in half because of rust, I see the attractiveness of Carbon.
I'm not going to wade through 9 pages, but has anyone mentioned the fact that you can REPAIR carbon? I know people talk about fixing old steel bikes and all that, but what is the price difference?
I think the prevalence of Carbon Repair spots can really put a [ahem] dent on all this talk about steel being a more durable and reliable material.
Will love my CAAD forever, though.
Once Carbon gets within my price range, I might snag one.
But, after having RB-1 snap at the Downtube/Headtube junction because of rust, and having another vintage frame I gave to a friend [A 531 Vulcan, lovely ride] snap in half because of rust, I see the attractiveness of Carbon.
I'm not going to wade through 9 pages, but has anyone mentioned the fact that you can REPAIR carbon? I know people talk about fixing old steel bikes and all that, but what is the price difference?
I think the prevalence of Carbon Repair spots can really put a [ahem] dent on all this talk about steel being a more durable and reliable material.
Will love my CAAD forever, though.
05-06-15, 07:15 PM
#182
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There is a marked difference between riding my 32 LB touring bike and the "new" used TREK, but I am guessing the TREK has to be 10 pounds lighter and lighter wheels as well. I don't know if it is true, but I was told that my early 70's Raleigh Competetion when set-up with tubular rims/ties weight a bit over 19Lbs years ago. I know with "regular" rims and components they are 23-24Lbs.
05-06-15, 07:27 PM
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I've had the following 3 bikes either back to back or at the same time
1) 1999 Lemond Zurich - steel. Weight: 20.5 lbs
2) Specialized Roubaix - carbon. Weight 18 lbs
3) Lynskey R230 - Titanium. Weight 16.3 lbs
Of course this is subjective, but the Roubaix, which I have seen people rave about was a distant 3rd in terms of ride quality and "feel". The 2 metal bikes both felt much more alive and fun. The Carbon bike was so uninspiring and lifeless. I couldn't wait to get rid of it. Bought it used for $1600 and sold it for $1750. Used the money to put dura ace wheels and Campy Record on my Lynskey. That bike is superior in every way.
I'm not completely off the idea of carbon. I just built up a "Tomasso" (generic chinese frame pretty much) carbon with the old Centuar parts and Wildcat wheels I had layiong around and it will be my light touring / work commuting bike. I won't be riding it for thrills.
1) 1999 Lemond Zurich - steel. Weight: 20.5 lbs
2) Specialized Roubaix - carbon. Weight 18 lbs
3) Lynskey R230 - Titanium. Weight 16.3 lbs
Of course this is subjective, but the Roubaix, which I have seen people rave about was a distant 3rd in terms of ride quality and "feel". The 2 metal bikes both felt much more alive and fun. The Carbon bike was so uninspiring and lifeless. I couldn't wait to get rid of it. Bought it used for $1600 and sold it for $1750. Used the money to put dura ace wheels and Campy Record on my Lynskey. That bike is superior in every way.
I'm not completely off the idea of carbon. I just built up a "Tomasso" (generic chinese frame pretty much) carbon with the old Centuar parts and Wildcat wheels I had layiong around and it will be my light touring / work commuting bike. I won't be riding it for thrills.
05-06-15, 07:28 PM
#184
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Great post BTW. I have not ridden a Al or CF, and only a Ti MTn Bike, (Whoops, forgot that I bought a CF/Al TREK used for $250 with Shimano 600 on it late last year - duh) but am I correct in assuming people are going to CF to loose a few pounds? I do not think that 2-3 pounds, unless you are racing is just not going to make much different.
There is a marked difference between riding my 32 LB touring bike and the "new" used TREK, but I am guessing the TREK has to be 10 pounds lighter and lighter wheels as well. I don't know if it is true, but I was told that my early 70's Raleigh Competetion when set-up with tubular rims/ties weight a bit over 19Lbs years ago. I know with "regular" rims and components they are 23-24Lbs.
There is a marked difference between riding my 32 LB touring bike and the "new" used TREK, but I am guessing the TREK has to be 10 pounds lighter and lighter wheels as well. I don't know if it is true, but I was told that my early 70's Raleigh Competetion when set-up with tubular rims/ties weight a bit over 19Lbs years ago. I know with "regular" rims and components they are 23-24Lbs.
05-06-15, 07:36 PM
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That post has been edited to reflect that it is my personal experience, which it inadvertently did not reflect originally. There was never any intent on my part to be "unequivocal" and to imply any universality to my experience. It was a simple omission of the words "for me", which has been corrected.
Most folks who are not anally retentive don't go around looking for opinions on blogs as purporting to be making universal pronouncements, just because they left out the words "in my opinion", or "in my personal experience". Generally, rational people recognize that such meaning is implicit even if it's not stated explicitly.
Most folks who are not anally retentive don't go around looking for opinions on blogs as purporting to be making universal pronouncements, just because they left out the words "in my opinion", or "in my personal experience". Generally, rational people recognize that such meaning is implicit even if it's not stated explicitly.
Second paragraph (the utterly gratuitous cod psychological analysis): both incorrect analytically in the specific instance and beneath contempt generally.
05-06-15, 07:42 PM
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When you recognize that anonymous internet blogs are bastions of opinions, rather than authoritative factual information to be relied upon as such, you will be doing yourself a big favor in life.
Last edited by D1andonlyDman; 05-06-15 at 07:50 PM.
05-06-15, 07:57 PM
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05-06-15, 08:24 PM
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This statement is getting very, very old. I have two CF bikes, a steel, an aluminum, and just sold a Ti. I am actually pretty careless with the way I treat all and have at least crashed all, in at least minor mishaps. The CF are no worse than the others. The only material I ever had to scrap is aluminum.
Witness all the "Is this scratch compromising the integrity of my CF frame/fork/component?" threads on BF. The reason why we see these threads is understandable: The posters know that CF is the material most likely to fail in catastrophic fashion.
05-06-15, 08:26 PM
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05-06-15, 10:02 PM
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I want my next bike to be chiseled out of a block of steel by a true artisan. 
Yes, and it's so when the bike gets nicked/scratched/damaged in normal use or from a minor drop/crash the cyclist has to buy a new one, of course. Having bikes last 20-30 (or more) years is not good for business.
Yes, and it's so when the bike gets nicked/scratched/damaged in normal use or from a minor drop/crash the cyclist has to buy a new one, of course. Having bikes last 20-30 (or more) years is not good for business.
You may be right, however, there is little incentive to make a bike last forever. Just like anything else, no need to make it outlast the original owner. Make it just seem to be durable when on display.
As far as steel artisans... I suppose there are a few. But the vast majority of the metal bikes on the road today. Treks, Colnagos, Peugeots, Schwinns, etc.... All were made in a factory.... and aren't much more artisan built than a toaster.
05-06-15, 10:59 PM
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There are CF MTBs designed to take a lot of abuse, and still save a bit of weight over the traditional steel or aluminum frames. It should be possible to make a commuter or touring bike that can take a lot of abuse, and out perform the steel beasts of burden.
You may be right, however, there is little incentive to make a bike last forever. Just like anything else, no need to make it outlast the original owner. Make it just seem to be durable when on display.
As far as steel artisans... I suppose there are a few. But the vast majority of the metal bikes on the road today. Treks, Colnagos, Peugeots, Schwinns, etc.... All were made in a factory.... and aren't much more artisan built than a toaster.
You may be right, however, there is little incentive to make a bike last forever. Just like anything else, no need to make it outlast the original owner. Make it just seem to be durable when on display.
As far as steel artisans... I suppose there are a few. But the vast majority of the metal bikes on the road today. Treks, Colnagos, Peugeots, Schwinns, etc.... All were made in a factory.... and aren't much more artisan built than a toaster.
05-07-15, 01:29 AM
#192
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Any minute now. Carbon suuuuucks, and you can only pull the wool over the ostrich's head for so long.
05-07-15, 02:25 AM
#193
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I've had the following 3 bikes either back to back or at the same time
1) 1999 Lemond Zurich - steel. Weight: 20.5 lbs
2) Specialized Roubaix - carbon. Weight 18 lbs
3) Lynskey R230 - Titanium. Weight 16.3 lbs
Of course this is subjective, but the Roubaix, which I have seen people rave about was a distant 3rd in terms of ride quality and "feel". The 2 metal bikes both felt much more alive and fun. The Carbon bike was so uninspiring and lifeless. I couldn't wait to get rid of it. Bought it used for $1600 and sold it for $1750. Used the money to put dura ace wheels and Campy Record on my Lynskey. That bike is superior in every way.
I'm not completely off the idea of carbon. I just built up a "Tomasso" (generic chinese frame pretty much) carbon with the old Centuar parts and Wildcat wheels I had layiong around and it will be my light touring / work commuting bike. I won't be riding it for thrills.
1) 1999 Lemond Zurich - steel. Weight: 20.5 lbs
2) Specialized Roubaix - carbon. Weight 18 lbs
3) Lynskey R230 - Titanium. Weight 16.3 lbs
Of course this is subjective, but the Roubaix, which I have seen people rave about was a distant 3rd in terms of ride quality and "feel". The 2 metal bikes both felt much more alive and fun. The Carbon bike was so uninspiring and lifeless. I couldn't wait to get rid of it. Bought it used for $1600 and sold it for $1750. Used the money to put dura ace wheels and Campy Record on my Lynskey. That bike is superior in every way.
I'm not completely off the idea of carbon. I just built up a "Tomasso" (generic chinese frame pretty much) carbon with the old Centuar parts and Wildcat wheels I had layiong around and it will be my light touring / work commuting bike. I won't be riding it for thrills.
1) 2015 Kuota Kiral
2) 2015 Eddy Merckx SanRemo76
3) 2015 Willier Cento1SR
The Willier was easily the lightest and quickest feeling, the most exciting bike I've ever had a chance to ride. The Merckx felt heavy and sluggish until pushed hard. The Kuota felt neutral and stable.
I guess I should look for bikes made from the same material as the Willier, and skip the bikes made from the material that Merckx and Kuota use. I wonder what those materials might be.
05-07-15, 05:24 AM
#194
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this all sounds like going to sleep on various different beds and blaming your discomfort on the bed frame.
05-07-15, 06:28 AM
#196
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05-07-15, 06:35 AM
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05-07-15, 06:45 AM
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05-07-15, 07:51 AM
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I will say, it has been a while since I have seen such nonsense here at BF, and I have always found these posts good for a laugh, so carry on.
05-07-15, 08:26 AM
#200
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Lookie this! OMG is CF fragile!
