alfredoR

Awesome stuff guys thank you. I like to work hard and be a courteous rider. Looks like I have to find another group.

carpediemracing 

I'll echo the others - there's a ton of unnecessary movement in the group. It's like if someone was pretending to be a bike racer. One of my good friends and former teammates (he was my leadout man when he lived in my area), he and I would joke around sometimes, sprinting after one another, doing sort of stupid things, but always aware of one another. The bits of the clip I watched reminded me of that kind of horsing around.

As far as your crash goes the guy who moved right shouldn't have moved right. He should have looked, seen you, and then he could have done a number of things. Basically he could try to move ahead of you and move over, wait for you to go and then move over, or not done anything (just wait). I'd have waited in his position and found a gap to slot into as the line of riders passed me.

For you, you could have yelled "Right!" (I watched it with no sound do maybe you yelled?), that would have been my first reaction. Well first advice. I generally don't yell in these situations anymore, I just work around what the rider is doing. The next thing (meaning this is what I would do in real life) would be to brake hard and ease. He was coming over and (if yelling didn't solve it then) you just need to get out of the way.

I'm finishing up a clip where a rider does this to me. We're going about 40 mph on a downhill section and the guy swerves right pretty hard into me. I don't yell, I back off, let the guy in, and use him as shelter. He immediately swerves left a couple bike widths, a pretty dangerous move if taken generically (meaning out of context), but in that particular situation the riders around react well and nothing happens.

The difference is that there were only a few guys moving around like that in the race. In your clip there are a bunch of guys doing it.

Even if someone moves in front of you it doesn't mean you have to move also. If there's no reason to it then you can move gently over. If there is (pothole, crash, etc) then, okay, move, but otherwise be a bit more mellow. It helps calm down the situation behind you also, so there isn't an escalating amount of swerving going on behind you.

If you want to get your kicks racing I'd look to doing USA Cycling sanctioned races. You'll probably have some of those guys in the races but you'll (hopefully) quickly get exposed to some better riding habits. Not that yours is bad, it's just that the fields as a whole are a lot less swervy.

I have to hit the sack but if you have questions keep posting.

Clip of a (USA Cycling Cat 3-4) race with much less swerving. There is movement, yes, but not as much. And remember that some of these riders are recently upgraded Cat 4s so only 10 or so races away from having gotten their license. This is my clip.

carpediemracing 

Also I would never say "Never pass on the curb". Passing left (into potential oncoming traffic) is much more troubling than crashing onto a lawn.

Curbs define your working area very clearly. You only have to worry about one side plus front and back. For me curbs are a favorite workspace.

Making moves anywhere in the middle (and on training rides that means the left as well as the middle) you have to be aware of what's happening to both sides plus front and back.

mkadam68

I thought there was some sort of sprint to be had? That would explain riders all over. Happens in the best of races. This was not a paceline/TT training ride. Why does everyone insist that riders ride smoothly as if it were? This was a training race. Yeah, the dope shouldn't have moved into you, but everyone moving around? It happens.

For OP: learn how to take some bumping. Do some bump drills. It almost looked like he barely touched you so you decided to go down. Just because there's contact, doesn't mean a crash HAS to happen. Lean in to him: you'll both be more stable. You also need to anticipate trouble coming, watching the movements of others around & ahead of you.

Also, just before you started moving up (where the guy hit you), I noticed a lull in the pace. That's when it's most dangerous: riders leave their line and look for any opening to move up. And that's exactly what happened.

carpediemracing 

I would respectfully disagree on the movement part. Even with a sprint coming up there shouldn't be a ton of movement, at least not between riders going the same speeds. I've weaved through riders going a bit slower, yes, but if going the same speed I realized that I (and others) don't move as much as I remembered. In that clip a guy in yellow/black makes the only sketchy move I remembered (and only one I saw on video after the fact). The same guy did a similar over correction which helped cause a crash just last Tuesday (same course, different spot).

In a future clip (I'm finishing it, hope to publish this week) I do a similar move in a curb-to-curb field sprint (Cat 3-4). There's a hole, I know I can accelerate through it, and I'm clear to move. Therefore I go. It's quite a move in terms of lateral movement, yes, but I was clear so I made it. There's a lot of wind, there's quite a bit of movement, but there's a distinct difference between the riders swerving a lot and those that aren't. In fact my main edits have been to reduce my criticism of a rider that swerves left a solid 5 feet while going 40 mph (same speed as everyone else) right after swerving to his right and almost taking me out. When that guy swerved into me it was virtually the same situation as the OP. The rider moved right aggressively without checking (or caring) that I was there. It was on a downhill-ish fast section about half a mile before the line. I was on the right curb and the guy came pretty close to me, a few inches of me, my bars, my front wheel.

This is a clip from last year when I did the B race (Cat 3-4-5). Granted most of the riders were 3s and 4s by this point in the season but one guy featured prominently is a 5 in his first crit. Even here there is much less movement than in the OP's clip.

The difference is that even with a sprint coming up riders weren't randomly swerving back and forth. They were holding a line, adjusting for trajectory differences in front, but not randomly moving left/right like in the OP's clip. At the very beginning of the clip (where OP started it) I was wondering why the guy in front of the OP was moving around so much. No reason to move around so suddenly and often. If you compare the clips (OP vs the ones I put up) there's a difference in the way the groups ride.

I watched the OP's bit again, just the end, and I can't fathom why that guy kept moving over or why the OP kept pushing forward. If I was in either position, even with 100m to go, I'd have backed off. I can take quite a push/hit/knock while on the bike and still keep going. However the reality is that I race with virtually zero contact. I had contact April 12th, by accident, and I immediately apologized to the guy. I haven't had contact in a race in forever until then, I don't remember the last time I had contact, it was probably 2009 in a similar situation when I slithered past someone and brushed them by accident. And I only do crits and I never break away so I'm always in the field.

I used to initiate contact (back in the late 80s when everyone tried to imitate the 7-Eleven team bullying on the Schwinn team) but stopped after I felt bad for making a rider feel scared enough that he refused to contest the field sprint (and his teammate in the break beat my teammate in the break so karma worked things out). I've had significant contact directed my way, last time was in 2006 or so, when someone intentionally leaned into me pretty hard two times just before the sprint (so going fast but not sprinting). When someone initiates contact they're in a weak position tactically and are trying to make up for it using force. Think of driving in traffic - if you are in a weak position tactically you have to back down. The other choice is to ram into whatever is blocking you, not a good option. Bike racing is sort of the same, although you can initiate minor contact without permanent damage. Still, though, I take the same approach to racing contact as I do to driving contact - it's not necessary, I totally avoid it, but I'll deal with it if someone directs it my way.

bruce19

Instead of "coasting" I was advised early on to use the technique of pedaling while lightly applying the brakes for better control of the bike. I find it invaluable. Doesn't seem like anyone in that group is familiar with it. And, yes, very squirelly in general.

BENZ28

Crazy sketchy group. Between the 37:45-38:10 marks you can see the guy who hit you's hand dip as if he is moving over abruptly. That is ridiculous. Moving over that hard in an even aggressive group ride is dumb. Like others have said Id find another group. Or stick to the front or back.

alfredoR

That about sums it up. Although I do agree that it was a bit squirrelly and I chalk it up to fatigue and guys struggling to hang on. It was a smooth ride the first 50 miles or so and the previous two laps weren't as sketchy and I think the less fit riders were causing a ruckus. The guy in the front that got out of his saddle and went nowhere is notorious in particular. As for taking a hit, the video doesn't portray it too well but it was definitely not a tap and felt more like a crack back like hit in that his body made contact as well. I chalk it up to my tunnel vision I suppose. I couldn't brace for impact because I never anticipated it.

Dan333SP

I'm from Miami and got my feet wet riding road bikes there before I moved 4 years ago. I think these are probably some of the same guys that do that Don Pan ride to Key Biscayne on the weekend mornings. They're lunatics. Yes, some of them are fast, but I ended up watching them approach their little sprint point on KB a few times while riding solo and they literally move out from the bike lane to cover the entire 2 lane road to make their moves, literally forcing cars to hit the brakes and swerve to avoid them. This is also on a notoriously dangerous stretch of road with multiple fatalities in the last couple years. And for what? First one to the coffee shop? No thank you. The best thing that ever happened for my riding was leaving that city.

alfredoR

Some of those guys definitely the ones that do the Don Pan ride. Their videos are crazy. Someone from Miami that feels my pain. But where should I go? I can't move, I'm vested at my job and have to stick around another 12 years.

Dan333SP

I mean you are definitely stuck in that sense. There are certainly some good people out there, I was friendly with the owners of the EBP lab before I moved (I think that's kinda transitioned into All 4 Cycling) and the rides I did with that shop were smooth and safe, but the morons can really ruin things. It's all magnified because everyone ends up riding around the key endlessly thanks to it being just about the only safe-ish place to ride consistently, and you spend most of your ride passing slower riders or trying to avoid picking up wheelsuckers because there are so many people out there.

I lived near Cocoplum circle, so I really preferred riding south to Black Point. Much more pleasant, but still dangerous.

Edit: Worst car/bike experience I've had was when I was relatively new and made the mistake of taking Old Cutler for that first stretch down past Matheson. Some guy in a modified/slammed pickup truck (it really didn't make sense, why would you slam a dualie pickup?) blasted one of those illegal train horn things while following a foot behind me. It scared me so much I swerved off the pavement and dropped into the dirt while wobbling badly, and then he blasted past and smoked me with one of those diesel clouds and screaming something unintelligible. I didn't go down somehow, but I also avoided that stretch of road like the plague for the next year.

Sangetsu

It's not a pro race, it's a competitive group ride without teams or teamwork, every person wants to fnish first. I am not at all surprised at the way they are riding, and that the OP crashed. I wouldn't read too much into it, or make a big deal about it. All's fair in love, war, and sprints. The OP crashed, but anyone who rides is going to crash, and anyone who races is going to crash often, I have scars on every limb to prove it. Take your licks and move on.

SevenTwentyNine

Yikes, the only time there should be that much nervous energy in a group of riders is probably a couple hundred meters from the line when everyone has lost the plot and there was supposed to be a bunch sprint or something. Scary stuff.

Brian Ratliff

So, I see a hand on a bar on the right side of the frame just before the crash. That's a bad spot to be in: up against a curb on one side and the guy pretty much owns you on the other. Move up to even up on the guy or move back and get behind his ass in that situation, especially if the door is closing.

I don't know what people are saying. That group is horribly sketchy. Everyone's just wagging around just cuz. Normally, in a group sprint, you'll see ripples. A guys makes a move, another guy moves accommodate/avoid, and that movement ripples back. Everyone's usually pretty tight. Here, in this vid, everyone's just squirreling around on their own accord. There's tons of space, but everyone's swerving around a half bike length to each side. To me, and I've been in tons of mass sprints, it looks like a bunch of enduros taking flying "sprints" at various distances that are way too far out and dying well short of the line.

merlinextraligh

^ I agree OP was in a bad position. A little more aggression in staying on the wheel in front would have kept the guy from coming over on the OP, or at least put him in better position to deal with it if he did.

Stay even with the guy beside you, and shade a little to his side, and he wouldn't have come over. If you couldn't stay even with him, drop back and let him have the wheel.

Also if he hits you body to body (as oppossed to sweeping your wheel), you should be able to stay upright. Keep you upperbody loose, and you can absorb that impact until he bounces off and everybody rides on.

Plus one on bump drills.

Also the difference in speeds in that clip are hugely dangerous. Moving up through that many riders who are moving much slower is a recipe for disaster.

Where you passing guys that were lapped? that attcked early and got caught? Personally, If I wasn't at the front of that group as they started to sprint, I'd just let them go and not engage, rather than be part of the bee swarm moving past through slower traffic.

rms13

Reminds me a bit of the Montrose Ride we have here in L.A. It's kind of like that but with upwards of 100 riders some weeks. A total free for all but most people are very experienced/racers.

alfredoR

Those were guys getting caught.


The ride has well over 100 riders every weekend.

milkbaby

The OP's video shows what looks like a spirited group ride with sprints along the way and at the end. There's a difference between being fluid and aware of what's going on and being a jerky squirrel. In the group rides I do that end up being a defacto "race" for some riders (it's always just a ride to me), we are self-policing. When somebody does something boneheaded, there is usually some yelling and often a discussion and/or dressing down post-ride.

topflightpro

This is your mistake. You are trying to sprint through forty slow guys in front of you who are not sprinting. As CDR noted earlier, " Even with a sprint coming up there shouldn't be a ton of movement, at least not between riders going the same speeds." but you have a bunch of guys going different speeds. That alone is a recipe for disaster.

It's one thing if you have a sprint train, and guys are popping off after giving a leadout, but that isn't what you are dealing with.

shoota 

OP- what did the guy who hit you say when he came to you after you went down?

alfredoR

Nothing! I didn't know who hit me until I checked the footage when i got home.

shoota 

That's brutal. I guess the rumors about Miami riders are true... around here if that would've happened you would've most likely at least gotten a "sorry man".

Also, if you're going to keep riding with this group it looks like you're going to have to learn how to rub and bump for position.

Elvo

Also consider getting a low deductible health insurance, increasing your disability insurance, and an insurance policy on your bike.

cellery

Is everyone in that group a new cyclist or was it just hurricane headwinds that morning?

merlinextraligh

Agreed. It's one thing for guys to sprint off the front for the City
Limit sign, but guys 40 back weaving
Up through slower guys is just a recipe for disaster.

If you're in a situation where you have to pass a bunch of slower riders just bag the sprint and safely stay out of the way.

Next time be at the front when the sprint starts or don't sprint

There are no prizes for winning the group ride and certainly not for 20th