All future Disc Brake questions put here....
05-27-15, 01:12 PM
#78
I'm doing it wrong.
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The reason for that is that us the consumers just lap it up. Don't get me wrong, I think that while not needed, disc brakes do offer some advantages on road bikes. Specially for the average rider. Discs have much better and consistent performance in the rain. They are also more tolerant of out-of-true wheels, and it is a heck of a lot cheaper and easier to replace a rotor than a worn out rim. The improved braking is a nice feature for people riding on roads with open traffic and the potential for debris, large potholes, gravel, etc... to show up unexpectedly. So as discs have been improved in mountainbiking and cyclocross they can now transfer to road bikes with only a weight penalty.
Problem is that you can't just have discs. You also need to add thru-axles and a new hub width standard because... reasons. And the new standards are often just dumb. A few years ago the mtb world moved to fork thru-axles. There was already a standard (20mm axles, 110mm spacing) but Fox and Shimano came with the qr15 standard with 15mm axles and 100mm spacing. Now, Rockshox had forks using the existing 20mm standard that were stiffer and LIGHTER than qr15. But did people say "qr15 is dumb?" Nope. We bought into it. And guess what? Now they are developing a new standard with 110mm spacing... Don't get me started on bottom brackets. I get it, pressfit makes manufacturing carbon frames easier. But do wee need six different "standards?" (BB30, PF30, PF92, BB90, BBright, 386 EVO) Aren't we better off with just improving one of them? But nooo... we have to run and buy this new frame with PF BB 287.75 Ultraevoplus because a magazine said it is 27.85 % stiffer and 7.879% more aero which translates to 3.87 second gain on a 23.7 mile race if the wind is blowing at 12kph from the SW on a 2.35 percent grade... Ok, sorry for the rant. What I'm trying to say is that new technology is not bad and that some things are real improvements ( threadless headsets, anyone) but if we want the constant "standard" change to end we the consumers need to make it stop.
I will now step off my soap box.
Problem is that you can't just have discs. You also need to add thru-axles and a new hub width standard because... reasons. And the new standards are often just dumb. A few years ago the mtb world moved to fork thru-axles. There was already a standard (20mm axles, 110mm spacing) but Fox and Shimano came with the qr15 standard with 15mm axles and 100mm spacing. Now, Rockshox had forks using the existing 20mm standard that were stiffer and LIGHTER than qr15. But did people say "qr15 is dumb?" Nope. We bought into it. And guess what? Now they are developing a new standard with 110mm spacing... Don't get me started on bottom brackets. I get it, pressfit makes manufacturing carbon frames easier. But do wee need six different "standards?" (BB30, PF30, PF92, BB90, BBright, 386 EVO) Aren't we better off with just improving one of them? But nooo... we have to run and buy this new frame with PF BB 287.75 Ultraevoplus because a magazine said it is 27.85 % stiffer and 7.879% more aero which translates to 3.87 second gain on a 23.7 mile race if the wind is blowing at 12kph from the SW on a 2.35 percent grade... Ok, sorry for the rant. What I'm trying to say is that new technology is not bad and that some things are real improvements ( threadless headsets, anyone) but if we want the constant "standard" change to end we the consumers need to make it stop.
I will now step off my soap box.
Tis the time of innovate or die, even if it means calling a thing a "standard" doesn't mean so much since there will be a hundred different standards.
05-27-15, 01:23 PM
#82
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The reason for that is that us the consumers just lap it up. Don't get me wrong, I think that while not needed, disc brakes do offer some advantages on road bikes. Specially for the average rider. Discs have much better and consistent performance in the rain. They are also more tolerant of out-of-true wheels, and it is a heck of a lot cheaper and easier to replace a rotor than a worn out rim. The improved braking is a nice feature for people riding on roads with open traffic and the potential for debris, large potholes, gravel, etc... to show up unexpectedly. So as discs have been improved in mountainbiking and cyclocross they can now transfer to road bikes with only a weight penalty.
Problem is that you can't just have discs. You also need to add thru-axles and a new hub width standard because... reasons. And the new standards are often just dumb. A few years ago the mtb world moved to fork thru-axles. There was already a standard (20mm axles, 110mm spacing) but Fox and Shimano came with the qr15 standard with 15mm axles and 100mm spacing. Now, Rockshox had forks using the existing 20mm standard that were stiffer and LIGHTER than qr15. But did people say "qr15 is dumb?" Nope. We bought into it. And guess what? Now they are developing a new standard with 110mm spacing... Don't get me started on bottom brackets. I get it, pressfit makes manufacturing carbon frames easier. But do wee need six different "standards?" (BB30, PF30, PF92, BB90, BBright, 386 EVO) Aren't we better off with just improving one of them? But nooo... we have to run and buy this new frame with PF BB 287.75 Ultraevoplus because a magazine said it is 27.85 % stiffer and 7.879% more aero which translates to 3.87 second gain on a 23.7 mile race if the wind is blowing at 12kph from the SW on a 2.35 percent grade... Ok, sorry for the rant. What I'm trying to say is that new technology is not bad and that some things are real improvements ( threadless headsets, anyone) but if we want the constant "standard" change to end we the consumers need to make it stop.
I will now step off my soap box.
Problem is that you can't just have discs. You also need to add thru-axles and a new hub width standard because... reasons. And the new standards are often just dumb. A few years ago the mtb world moved to fork thru-axles. There was already a standard (20mm axles, 110mm spacing) but Fox and Shimano came with the qr15 standard with 15mm axles and 100mm spacing. Now, Rockshox had forks using the existing 20mm standard that were stiffer and LIGHTER than qr15. But did people say "qr15 is dumb?" Nope. We bought into it. And guess what? Now they are developing a new standard with 110mm spacing... Don't get me started on bottom brackets. I get it, pressfit makes manufacturing carbon frames easier. But do wee need six different "standards?" (BB30, PF30, PF92, BB90, BBright, 386 EVO) Aren't we better off with just improving one of them? But nooo... we have to run and buy this new frame with PF BB 287.75 Ultraevoplus because a magazine said it is 27.85 % stiffer and 7.879% more aero which translates to 3.87 second gain on a 23.7 mile race if the wind is blowing at 12kph from the SW on a 2.35 percent grade... Ok, sorry for the rant. What I'm trying to say is that new technology is not bad and that some things are real improvements ( threadless headsets, anyone) but if we want the constant "standard" change to end we the consumers need to make it stop.
I will now step off my soap box.
Expensive hobby is expensive.
Lack of standards among manufacturers within a product realm is by no means limited to bicycles. It happens in many other industries as well. the reason for all the BB standards is because material technologies have opened up design possibilities so manufacturers come up with their standard, a necessary evil due to all the different geos they're coming up with. By sticking with only one BB standard you unnecessarily limit design.
I agree, a lot of it is a pain in the ass. Then again bikes certainly ain't boring these days.
05-27-15, 01:50 PM
#89
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Slight correction..."Discs have much better and consistent performance" than rim brakes period. Regardless of conditions.
Expensive hobby is expensive.
Lack of standards among manufacturers within a product realm is by no means limited to bicycles. It happens in many other industries as well. the reason for all the BB standards is because material technologies have opened up design possibilities so manufacturers come up with their standard, a necessary evil due to all the different geos they're coming up with. By sticking with only one BB standard you unnecessarily limit design.
I agree, a lot of it is a pain in the ass. Then again bikes certainly ain't boring these days.
Expensive hobby is expensive.
Lack of standards among manufacturers within a product realm is by no means limited to bicycles. It happens in many other industries as well. the reason for all the BB standards is because material technologies have opened up design possibilities so manufacturers come up with their standard, a necessary evil due to all the different geos they're coming up with. By sticking with only one BB standard you unnecessarily limit design.
I agree, a lot of it is a pain in the ass. Then again bikes certainly ain't boring these days.
And to get back on topic, disc brakes offer improved braking yes. That improvement is more noticeable in the rain and quite frankly, most people will be just fine with rim brakes. BUT for certain consumers discs make sense. On the other hand, discs make no sense for a LOT of people. Forcing them unto the consumers by simply phasing out the rim brake bikes is what I don't like.
05-27-15, 02:05 PM
#91
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...and you are wrong.
There is no problem. The abundance of design choices available today versus the past is directly because of advancements in material technology. It makes no sense to limit design artificially via standards because some people are cheap.
Individual manufacturer standards allow for unique BB geometries beyond what PF30 can address. Older standards addressed older frame design, the game has changed and designs have opened up. Your premise makes as much sense as limiting all burgers to one brand of ketchup.
Disc brakes superior performance across the board versus rim brakes is more noticeable under all conditions period. This rain specific nonsense is exactly that, nonsense. Hydraulic disc absolutely outclasses the best rim brakes in terms of rider feedback and control. Doesn't chew up your nice wheels either.
Progress marches on and waits for no man.
There is no problem. The abundance of design choices available today versus the past is directly because of advancements in material technology. It makes no sense to limit design artificially via standards because some people are cheap.
Individual manufacturer standards allow for unique BB geometries beyond what PF30 can address. Older standards addressed older frame design, the game has changed and designs have opened up. Your premise makes as much sense as limiting all burgers to one brand of ketchup.
Disc brakes superior performance across the board versus rim brakes is more noticeable under all conditions period. This rain specific nonsense is exactly that, nonsense. Hydraulic disc absolutely outclasses the best rim brakes in terms of rider feedback and control. Doesn't chew up your nice wheels either.
Progress marches on and waits for no man.
05-27-15, 02:15 PM
#92
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but yeah, they're greeaaaat!
05-27-15, 02:16 PM
#93
I'm doing it wrong.
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05-27-15, 02:35 PM
#95
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05-27-15, 02:45 PM
#97
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Disks are never going to be used in the peloton due to insurmountable weight, safety and aero handicaps.
But the bike and component manufacturers need road disk sales to capture the biggest sales demographic: ex mountain bikers transitioning over to the road. Your standard middle-aged dentist getting ready for a Grand Fondue wants to ride what the pros ride.
Faux-disks for the pros - that the solution. Very lightweight carbon disk rotor and caliper replicas made to look like disks, while the real braking action is provided by rim brakes. Hidden rim calipers like the high-end LOOK bikes. That way it looks like the pros are riding what the manufacturers want, but only for a few grams penalty. No problems with wheel changes, overheating disks, thru-axles, wheel incompatabilities. Plus the carbon replicas would simply crumble to pieces in the event of a crash and not cause injuries.
But the bike and component manufacturers need road disk sales to capture the biggest sales demographic: ex mountain bikers transitioning over to the road. Your standard middle-aged dentist getting ready for a Grand Fondue wants to ride what the pros ride.
Faux-disks for the pros - that the solution. Very lightweight carbon disk rotor and caliper replicas made to look like disks, while the real braking action is provided by rim brakes. Hidden rim calipers like the high-end LOOK bikes. That way it looks like the pros are riding what the manufacturers want, but only for a few grams penalty. No problems with wheel changes, overheating disks, thru-axles, wheel incompatabilities. Plus the carbon replicas would simply crumble to pieces in the event of a crash and not cause injuries.
05-27-15, 02:47 PM
#98
I'm doing it wrong.
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05-27-15, 03:13 PM
#100
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Where do current disk brake questions get posted?