cale

I am willing to concur up to a point. That point is where you suggest that fit is little more than finding a comfortable neutral position (I'm thinking of cleat adjusting in this case). But this "solution" offers little consideration of the cyclist's range of motion, the properties of the pedal fit mechanism and a great range of other concerns.

You seem to be saying that you require little input on fit but that's hardly the case for everyone.

roadwarrior

No, those shade tree folks are mostly out here, pretending they know what they are talking about.

If we knew the occupations of everyone here, I am certain we could sort out the ones that are excellent and the ones that suck at their jobs. My experience is the ones that are excellent, indeed understand the help a professional can provide, in any business. Versus say the person who hires an attorney off the back of the phone book.

Point, in any business there are people who are really good and knowledgeable and people that believe they know, but really don't. Like the old Carlin joke about finding the worst doctor in America. By process of elimination ,we could find that person. And he has a list of appointments, today. Discerning consumers know how to determine the difference.

In our case, we are happy to provide references if someone wants them. But fitting business comes from two sources; people who buy new bikes who have gotten professional sales help and have determined that will continue into the fit, and people who refer business because they have been successfully set up on their bike. If you blindly walk into a bike shop to get a fit without checking it out first, caveat emptor.

Like I said, custom fitting of anything is not for everyone. And that's OK.

Stucky

Is it poor fit, or that their bodies have not acclimated to their fit?

I think most cyclists who get into long distances work-out a good fit- one way or another.

Would a cyclist who is not acclimated to uber-long rides and/or not acclimated to the way his bike is set up, fare any better if he received a good fitting just before his ride?

Except in cases where someone is having a specific issue/has a unique problem, I think much of what we see regarding fittings, is just more roadie OCD behavior.

Stucky

And one can be sure that the pro team fitter/guy with physical therapy credentials/etc. isn't hanging out at the LBS for $10 or $15 an hour.

roadwarrior

Good points...one of the things we ask is if they have anything coming up. Like RAGBRAI in a week. Or RAIN. Or something like that. If the answer is yes, I am riding 165 miles in one day next week, we will clearly tell them that depending on how much adjusting needs to be done, you may have issues.

This is like someone wanting to run a marathon tomorrow buying new running shoes today. Not a good decision. You can also self fit your running shoes and buy the cool color and make, or have a professional look at your running gait and make the correct recommendations.

People who are good at this solicit the help of professionals. In any sport.

A friend of mine bought golf clubs at a discount place. He struggled. He finally gave in and went to a professional who does club fittings. He now has clubs that fit his swing, height, etc. Took seven strokes off his handicap doing nothing more than getting the right equipment with the proper setup.

But as I have said several times, it's not for everyone.

Smokehouse

I guarantee you I could benefit from a session (or two) from a fit-expert (expert being the key word). Sadly...I don't have the time (or more importantly, the $$), to find one. I was stating that I had a local fit (one of three local "BG Fit" guys that I have to chose from) and it was lackluster. Sadly, he was the most recommended guy we have around here. I was left to fix a few of my own problems on my own...which sucked.

Personally...I'd love to have a real fit session with an expert...there's plenty of issues I still have...


Bingo. And in my area...there just isn't any sports clinics to go to for a real professional session...

pdedes

Fit is a dynamic purpose driven exercise. I was fortunate to have a great coach early on to help me figure out my own fit and explain how to change it for various reasons. A good fit will match your intended purpose on a bike. TT, stage racing, touring, recreation, long distance, etc. aren't the same, so a fit won't be the same either. Cookie cutter fitters are a waste of your time. A real pro will look at all aspects of your body and your reason for riding. I've taken the time to collect the data about myself and am confident I can dial in an appropriate fit for me. If you are paying attention to your pro, you'll be able to take care of your own requirements as time moves on.

roadwarrior

Not true.

I know several guys who are either former professionals who are fully trained on fitting, or raced and also were exercise physiologists. One has a masters degree. He also does VO2 testing and a host of other things. Another not only does local fittings, but lectures and trains shops on how to use the GURU System.

You are the buyer. If you don't know who you are buying from you get what you get.

And they are not making minimum wage. Not even close.

Generally, if you are looking to find out more you can check the shop's website and the reputable ones definitely tout the professionalism of their services.

You guys may not believe this, but there are shops that cater to people looking for performance. And, like us they have customers who will come from a hundred miles or more to do business because of that reputation.

Smokehouse

And how, pray tell, is one supposed to do that?

User reviews are pointless...and all we have in this area is "BG fit" specialists.

I have a list of pointless "certs" a mile long and none of them are replacements for my 15 years of actually doing my job. I also know guys who are hacks that love to use those pointless certs as some sign of quality...

With the prices going from $250-400 for a fit in my area...how exactly is one to find out who is good and who is a joke? There's not a single place that will do a fit for $20/hr.

Living a few hours from Chicago...and St. Louis I searched and searched. I've read good/bad things about the BG system, and the GURU system, I've read good/bad reviews for nearly any place.

It really is an ocean of stuff to sort through and basically...that's why I've given up on it. To say "If you don't know who you are buying from you get what you get." is a pretty nasty way to look at things. Especially when it's almost impossible to know what exactly what it is you are paying for. Some guy could sell you a line of crap, show his pretty certs, then jack you up 5 ways from Sunday...to say that is the buyer's fault is pretty harsh.

Willbird

Within driving distance of home I would have 3 major choices.

One place uses Retul
The second I'm not sure what method they use.
The third uses a dynamic machine that they adjust as you ride it (I forget the brand name).

The first two are closer to home. They are in Fort Wayne, IN, the third is Grainger, IN maybe (at work on iPhone right now).

If I were to do any of the three it would pretty much be a "one shot" deal cash wise right now....I for sure do not have cash to try one, find it a total waste, then try another.

I will manage about 800 miles in May...give or take a few with my own half asterisk adj.... Can manage 100k rides but ramping up.

roadwarrior

Hmmmm....how do you do that with any business or person you may want to hire?

Realtor?

Accountant?

Attorney?

Doctor?

Dentist?

Auto repair guy?

Yadda yadda....

I don't do business with a guy to reroof my house without checking them out first. I would not hire a plumber, or an electrician without checking them out first.

Good grief.

I can certainly sympathize if you are in no way connected to the cycling community and cannot get a single reference on a single fitter.

This is not that complicated. If you hire any of the people in these walks of life I mentioned without any background checks or references, you get what you get.

Given the huge number of social media sites where people can b!tch about bad service, a half hour or so on the net will probably tell you a lot. Or call the shop and ask if they have a reference you can talk to before you commit to an appointment.

In St. Louis, Big Shark used to be involved with the old Health Net pro cycling team. If I was going there, I'd check them out. They are Serotta trained (very comprehensive program a friend of mine went through, and it's too bad they are out of business) and also do RETUL. We use RETUL. I have been fitted with it and it is very good.

PepeM

How about this guys, since you say you are close to St. Louis:

Maplewood Fit Mission - Maplewood Bicycle St Louis MO 63143 314-781-9566

Don't personally know whether they are any good or not.

roadwarrior

The "dynamic machine" is probably GURU. It allows adjusting while you sit on it. If it was me, I'd go to either the first or third...but take a look and see if you know anyone who has used them. Ask how it went.

Smokehouse

You are 100% right...there is no sure bet. However, I'd say that the things you mentioned are more cut and dried than a bike fit. Being an electrical contractor, I am subject to this scrutiny as well...but I have an ocean of projects to fall back on and they are "quality = yes? Quality = no." My wife is a dentist and she too is in this same world...but again, she fixes broken things and it's "quality fix =yes, quality fix =no". Realtor? Did they sell your house? Doctor? Are you still sick/broken? Auto repair? Was your car fixed reasonably? These are easier to rate than "does your bike no longer cause you discomfort?" Even with the doctor (a less static issue than the others)...one can rate them over time because people will see them over and over.

With a fit session...you get one and a followup...at best. If you don't buy what they want you to buy, they'll just blame you problems on that (I read this often). "Well Mr. Jones...you're still having neck issue because you didn't purchase those $195 handlebars I instructed you to buy..." I've read many reviews where someone had a fit that came to an abrupt end because they refused to drop $900+ on a new stem, saddle, handlebars, different length crank arms, etc...

If you buy a stock $3000 bike, you could easily land up replacing nearly every contact point it has to the tune of an additional $1K+ during a fit session...

I'm rambling...sorry.

Long story short, a fit is really hard to judge...and reviews of them seem to be all over the place. Some will claim is the second coming, some will hate them.

eyewannabike

Why not, you know, go to a doctor?

Kopsis

The fit "system" the fitter uses (BG, GURU, etc.) is of little consequence to the rider. Used blindly they won't get you any closer to an optimized fit that Competitive Cyclist's online fit calculator. A good fitter will use the system as a starting point and then *observe* the results and make changes. The best fitters have the ability to notice very small differences in how you move on the bicycle and can accurately predict the effect a specific fit change will have on that movement. This is the difference between knowing how to do a fit and having actual skill.

Any fitter interested in selling you his/her services should be willing to entertain a 5 minute conversation about what you are purchasing (and why getting a pro fit is not dumb). You can learn a lot about the fitter in that time. Ask them real questions like "how do you determine if I need wedges?" or "how do you determine the correct amount of saddle setback?" If they're more focused on the tools/system than the rider, that's a warning sign. If they don't ask you what kind of riding you do or what you're hoping to get out of the fitting, that also a warning sign. Combine what you learn from your interview with recommendations from local cycling club members and you can get to a short list of qualified fitters with a pretty modest time investment.

roadwarrior

A good shop, at the time they are measuring you for a frame can also tell you (because you are all torso or legs, for example) what you might need. Longer or shorter stem. Take two seconds to measure for handlebars..."you might want to consider..." Same for a seat. Usually they have a seat measuring pad. In all my years, I have not found but a couple of people that needed different length cranks...generally if the frame fits, the cranks will work. They should be telling you the things that you might want to consider because you are this or that, but SHOW YOU WHY.

Generally, people buying a bike at the level you mentioned are experienced riders, and seat-wise already know what they like and the width. In our case, if the stock seat is not to your liking we'll do an exchange, taking some off the bike for the stock seat we can't sell at retail (silly legal thingy)...and providing a discount on a new seat. This can be done on the sale floor without the need to do a fitting if the rider chooses not to go that route.

TALK to the fitter. But in order to do that you need to know what questions to ask. And if the shop has any brains, if you need new items like a stem and bars, they provide discounts if you bought the bike there. But I have not seen many people walking out with a thousand dollar bill on new components unless they absolutely wanted to do that. Usually it's a $50 or $60 stem, or less.

I guess providing these services is why we sell ten million and are totally booked on fittings until the end of August.

Heathpack 

Of course there is no sure bet. But here's how I approached it, as a rank newby with 10 month's cycling experience. I asked everyone I knew. I put the most weight on the opinions of people who I knew were better riders. Finally, one friend HIGHLY suggested the fitter I went with, 100% guaranteed me that I would be amazed by the experience, described exactly what was going to happen. I was on a $600 bike at the time and the fit was $350. The cost of the fit seemed insane to me. But I was looking to buy a new bike, the fitter could do a pre-purchase fitting using an adjustable fitbike and could make recommendations as to what bikes should be on my shopping list. I was about a month out from my first century at the time.

So I went for it and it was the best thing I could have done at that point in time. My fit was terrible and I'd been to two "fitters" already (spending a total of $40, I was clueless at the time, you 100% get what you pay for). When I went to my fitter, I really couldn't ride more than 60 miles before I had to get off the bike. Numb hands, sore back and neck, pain at saddle contacts. Viola! One month later, I ride my bike 100 miles in total comfort, passing people at the end of the ride who are shaking out their numb hands and rolling their aching shoulders.

Got my new bike, went back to fitter. Even with my pre-fit, I needed a new seatpost with less offset and the bars I ordered had a longer reach than the published specs. He could not get me fit to that bike and told me sorry, I need to replace these items. But guess what? He does not work in a bike shop, he does not sell any of those things. He told me what he told me because it was true, not because he was trying to upsell me.

Since the original fit session (which was supposed to be an hour but wound up being 2.5 hours, I was his last session of the day and we were have awesome back and forth on kinematics and his ReTul fit system), I have easily been back to him 10 times for various issues. He is one of my favorite people in all of cycling to interact with. I've probably spent 15 hours with him and he will not accept any more money from me, not until I get a new fit from him, like a TT fit. Its not supposed to work that way, but it irks him that women get treated badly in many shops and he goes out of his way to support women's cycling, he knows he can make the hugest difference for us vs an elite male cyclist. He has graduate degrees in exercise physiology and kinematics. So do the math, he is making around $20/hr fitting me. He is a great person and a true expert.

When I say this fitter is one-in-a-million, I'm not exaggerating. Its pretty likely he's one of the best fitters working right now anywhere based on the people that he fits and the fact that he's the guy who gets flown to France mid TdF to tweak the pro's fits. So I get it that not everyone is going to have access to someone like him. But if I hadn't taken my friend's advice and sprung for the $350 fit on the $600 bike, I might not even be riding right now. There's only so many times you can ride around on the bike paths in circles before you get bored and move on to some other activity. Sometimes you just have to be open to things in order to have any hope of discovering something or somebody extraordinary.

roadwarrior

Well said.

Heathpack 

Interestingly, my fitter measures power output while pedaling, maybe you guys do this too? I do output more power on shorter cranks- 165 mm. The bike I eventually purchased came with 170 mm cranks. They work for me, but I get this dead spot of power output at the top of my pedal stroke on the 170 mm cranks. This won't hurt me, but I get a little more power out of the 165 mm cranks. So my fitter told me the pros and cons- basically the only advantage of the longer cranks was no additional outlay of money, the shorter cranks were better but the difference wasn't huge. He let me decide for myself, gave me enough info to make the decision. Showed me exactly what the differences would be.

In the end, of course I got the shorter cranks. I like everything to be "right" on my bike. I bought a back-up bike and it had 170 mm cranks which I wasn't going to replace. Haha that lasted all of two weeks. As an endurance person, any little tiny incremental increase in power output becomes significant after 7 hours on the bike. Plus a huge advantage for me in that I can spin very well, the shorter cranks make it easier for me to have a wider range of useful cadence, another giant plus for me on these epic rides.

Left to my own devices, I would have maybe figured all this out eventually. Or maybe I wouldn't have. Who knows? But as a newby rider, I've gotten to a pretty advanced degree of understanding about some of this stuff. Why? Because I was open to it and willing to pay a very fair price for some real expertise.

roadwarrior

Great story.

And the process you went through to find this person, anyone can do.

roadwarrior

We do measure power output and have a fit cycle where we can change crank length pretty easily. It's just that most don't want to go that far or are as interested as you.

The fun part is showing the rider the "before" statistics, and the "after" statistics so they get evidence of the improvement. We give them those and also a sheet with every measurement listed.

Lazyass

Or the people who post here complaining of pain after they got fitted. I can think of two who started threads in the last week or so, taking about changing their saddle position. Or the self fitters who can ride all day long.

roadwarrior

I'm not trying to convince you. Like I have said several times, it's not for everyone. And people who get fittings from numbskulls who make huge changes in the bike without telling the rider that they will have to gradually work up to the new benchmarks are many times the ones that experience pain. Either that or they have a physical ailment or injury that they did not reveal to the fitter. Like you had a broken leg once. First thing, let's measure leg length and many times because of the break they are not the same length. Having hip pain riding? Yep. Let's set you up with shims to get your legs the same length when touching the pedals. Little stuff like that. Then we have to look at supination/pronation. All that factors into how the shims are attached. I am sure the home fitter can figure all that out on their own.

If you have a bell curve body type and no issues you might get lucky. That's not most of the population.

A friend of mine was getting dental work done and it got screwed up. I guess we can conclude that all dentists are worthless and we can drill and fill our own teeth.

A good fitter will diagnose by asking the rider a lot of questions before they start prescribing solutions and putting them on whatever machine they are using.

Prescribing before diagnosing is also called malpractice.

indyfabz

Wonder of there is a point in your future. I got one for suggesting that someone might be something akin to dumb.