RShantz

I was talking with a couple buddies who are strong riders and train primarily on the trainer - well at least 1/2 of their time over a year is on the trainer. They both stated that done properly the trainer session can indeed increase endurance.

I've never read the Time Crunched Cyclist, so can someone explain this logic to me. Like I said these guys are strong & are strong on 3-4 hour rides so I think there is something to what they say.

As for myself, I hate my trainer & put the hours in outside even if I'm not always getting the most bang for the buck. My question is just to give me a general understanding - I'm not trying to change my training.

Carbonfiberboy 

Trainer time can increase both endurance and power.

I get increased endurance from 1 hour rollers sessions, holding my effort steady right at VT1 - first ventilatory threshold: Understanding VT1 and VT2

The idea is to increase one's ability to burn fat and thus generate less lactate at that effort level. One can of course go longer than 1 hour, but it's not good to make it a chore that one is reluctant to perform. One can get the same effect on the road by varying the gearing in moderate terrain that allows one to hold a steady VT1 effort. That's impossible in some terrain.

Power can be increased by doing intervals on the trainer or rollers. Much more convenient and controllable than going outside. They're not much fun wherever one does them.

Pirkaus

You can certainly increase you riding with trainer sessions, HIIT sessions, and 1 hour threshold workouts will do the trick.
I max out at bout an hour and a half before my brain wants to exsplode.

RShantz

Thanks. I completely understand how the trainer can help with power and somewhat understand (now, after your post) about endurance. I do have a follow up question though. Would someone doing the majority of training in 1 hour sessions (now that I think about it, the trainer part is irrelevant - what is important is the work performed in the hour) with the intent of increasing endurance have a greater drop in sustainable power at hour 4 of an event/race (the drop measured as a % of one's one hour effort) as compared to someone who routinely does 3 or 4 hour rides with the focus on endurance.

This may be nerdy, but is very interesting to me - trying to understand how the body adapts to training.

PepeM

If you follow Carmicheal's Time-crunched Cyclist Program, which involves training sessions of 60-90 minutes exclusively, he does claim that you will be best at events that are less than three hours long.

Carbonfiberboy 

One would think that one 4 hour ride would increase endurance more than 4 one hour rides if performed at the same intensity. Except maybe one wouldn't hold that intensity for 4 hours, eh? Say your VT1 is at a 130 HR just for argument. If you come back from a 4 hour ride with an average HR of 130, you sure as heck were going harder than that a lot of the time, and therefore easier than that a lot of the time. I doubt that the adaptations would be identical. The other thing is that if one did the 4 one hour rides, one would probably be riding almost every day. OTOH, if one did a 4 hour ride and then nothing, one's fitness would rapidly evaporate.

IOW, I don't know, never having tested that exactly, but I'm guessing the one hour sessions would work better for the same time spent.

The theory of polarized training is that one trains either at or below VT1 or above VT2, with very little time between. This does seem to work, but takes a lot of discipline to practice outdoors.

Jiggle

Do it at 100F body temperature and you'll reap even more rewards.

Drawback: Utter agony. Seriously, I'd rather be waterboarded.

Willbird

HR IMHO lags behind effort though, so outdoors there is some averaging going on that you may not have with the trainer or resistance rollers. However I usually love riding outside, and do not like riding the rollers as much.

The rollers build good bike handling habits, the trainer may do the opposite according to some folks anyway. Just my .02....I'm sure no expert:-).

kingfishr

I did a lot more structured training on a trainer this winter, focusing on 40K time trial using Trainer Road. I have had about the same level of fitness for the last 10 years, I am 56 and have had a power meter for the last 3 years, and am a numbers junkie. So far this year my best ftp is 284 far exceeding 2013 and 2014 where I maxed at about 240. It was certainly a combination of the program and the fact that it was done on the trainer with a constant output, no resting for between 45-90 mins 3-4 times a week. Outdoors 3-4 hour rides are no problem since you can always coast and take short rests. I'm not the fastest in our club, but I can keep up with riders 20 years younger...

Willbird

Some roller work made a permanent (so far anyway) change in my perception of coasting. I think I used to do a lot more of it pre rollers. Now I am very conscious of it and really only do it when slowing for a stop, or if I am in desperation energy conservation mode.

Kopsis

The body's energy systems are not independent. A 3 hour race (or hard group ride) isn't done entirely on aerobic energy. Rider's will use a pace that taps into as much glycolitic energy as they can without causing pre-mature muscle fatigue. A rider with less aerobic base but a strong anaerobic system and fast recovery can often use the latter to compensate on long efforts. This is especially true if there's any significant climbing as the descents are a good opportunity for glycolitic recovery. Eventually lactate fatigue will catch up and the weak aerobic base will become a limiter, which is why Carmichael suggests races over 3 hours might call for a different program. The other problem with using HIIT exclusively is that it's hard on both body and mind. Carmichael's Time Crunched program isn't suitable for year round use and he clearly points out the need for periodizing the 12 week program with significant recovery breaks.

rpenmanparker 

Better title: Mental Illness Increased by 1-Hour Trainer Sessions.

Homebrew01

Charmichael's a scumbag. Borrow his books from the library so he doesn't get any money.

RShantz

Thanks. I wasn't aware that Carmichael suggests something different for a 3 hr or longer event. This makes perfect sense.

gregf83 

I've been commuting (about 66km roundtrip) the last couple of years so my training during the week basically consists of a 1 hr ride every 12 hrs. Obviously, I'm not going hard on all those rides and I'm not really structured - I go harder when I feel fresh and take it easy when I'm tired. I have a bridge and a couple of hills so get a reasonable number of hard 30S and 3min efforts. I also have a stretch of hwy where I can get in a decent unbroken 30 min interval.

I haven't noticed any real difference in my FTP (as measured by 20 min interval) or performance over a 3-4 hr group ride. Lots of 1 hr rides seem to work OK for me.

datlas 

Just curious, what's the basis for this comment? I am serious.

Homebrew01

Doping junior cyclists without their (or parents) knowledge or consent.
"Have a vitamin"

search: chris carmichael junior doping

datlas 

Thanks for reply. I was not aware.

Heathpack 

I am an endurance cyclist predominantly. I started working with a coach about 6 months ago. My endurance has increased tremendously. The big change that he made has been adding a couple of days of interval sessions per week to my training.

When I first started with him, he commented that my aerobic conditioning was surprisingly so-so for someone who rode as much as I did. That comment seemed strange to me, I did not understand it, I thought aerobic conditioning was my strong suit. But watching what he's done, I can see what he meant and where my improvements have come.

The intervals I ride are mostly short intervals focused on VO2max, they are clearly designed to get me hypoxic. One to two hours sessions, a few times a week. Lets say 3 hours of interval sessions on average and 10 hours of rides in the 2-8 hour range. The long rides have very little prescription, I'm pretty much riding them as I was before the coach- thus my vastly improved endurance is from the intervals for sure.

For me, what has clearly happened as a result of the interval training is that I can ride much harder without impunity. Previously, when the road went up or people started going fast, I would just have to power it down a bit to survive the distance, I could not go too much in the red/over FTP for too long. I am a woman mostly riding with men, so my absolute strength was poorer than the people I was riding with. Repeated bursts of power would take their toll on me, meaning I could not catch and hold a wheel as long I might like. Now I can run my engine much hotter for much longer without negative consequence. So if you're on a ride with me, what you perceive is that I'm much stronger. Actually we haven't changed my FTP in 6 months. What I've gained is that I can ride at increasingly high percentages of FTP for longer and longer times.

For example, yesterday I rode an easy-ish for me century (easy because there was not much climbing, just 5000 ft) and I ran my engine at 80% FTP for 6 hours. Prior to working with my coach and starting the interval training, for a 6 hour ride I would have been running at about 65% FTP, maybe 70% on a strong day. Huge difference, that translates into around an additional 2mph over that distance.

I saw the comment too that interval training is not a year-round thing and I read the same thing in TTCC. This is absolutely not true in my training, we are doing interval training continuously. Zero burn-out, and fatigue is managed very successfully by coach. I wonder if that comment in the book is just a disclaimer because the interval programs are not really optimized for the individual.

BTW, I actually like the trainer workouts. The intervals themselves make you miserable while you are doing them. But I feel very mighty right after an interval is over and within seconds I want another crack at it. I find them to be a bit of a buzz. I ride my trainer workouts before dawn. Who else gets to start their day knowing they were given a maximally hard thing to do and they did it? (Well usually I do it, sometimes I miss targets like everyone else.) Now I love nothing more than a nice road ride. But the trainer stuff is a close second.

Kopsis

TTCC doesn't say you can't do interval training regularly for extended periods. It says you can't maintain peak performance for extended periods using the TTCC program (which has you doing HIIT almost exclusively -- three long sessions a week plus a zone 2/3 ride on Sunday). Also note that the program isn't really intended for people who have 13+ hours a week to train ... it targets riders who are limited to about 8 hours a week.

I'm not advocating for or against TTCC. Just answering the OPs question about how effective training a large percentage of HIIT can be. In your case, HIIT is less than 25% of your training hours. Most people would consider that really well rounded. 50% or more (as OP's buddies are doing) is going to have some greater limitations.

unabowler

I think it's a mischaracterization of Carmichael's program to say that it builds endurance through 1-hour trainer sessions. It's a program based on 6-8 hours per week in four sessions. Endurance really comes from the weekend sessions which are a Saturday-Sunday block, rather than a single long ride. The weekday sessions are 60-90 minute interval sessions, and some of those are in two-day blocks. One of the caveats expressed in the book is that the programs are good for events up to three hours.

Heathpack 

Awesome response, thanks for the clarification. It's been a while since I actually read TTCC.

Interesting comment too, about TTCC plan not being able to maintain peak fitness for extended periods of time. Isn't this the nature of all training programs, time-crunched or not? Part of the art of training and even choosing events is peaking at the right time. Cycling performance has it's highs and lows by it's very nature. Of course if you're crafty you can still do well in races when you're not at your peak. But nobody can be in prime condition all the time.

RShantz

Yeah, I was just curious about impact of short sessions on endurance with a very little longer (endurance) rides.

gsa103

The big issue with short sessions is not knowing how to manage food/energy during longer rides. Most people have ~1000 calories of glycogen stored in their bloodstream, and ~1000kcal/hr is a hard work-out. So most cyclists can ride at whatever intensity for an hour, without needing anything other than water.

On a 4-hour ride you can easily burn 2000 calories (500 cal/hr), and you'll bonk if you don't keep your body supplied with sugar. Only doing short rides is going to be problematic, but 1-2 longer rides a month is all that's really required if you're doing a focused training program.

Kopsis

Absolutely true. And a good coach will include some amount of short term and long term periodization in the program. The difference is the amount of down time. TTCC advocates a 4 - 6 week back-off in between uses of the program. A more well-rounded program should let you train year round with much less dramatic swings in fitness/performance.