chaadster

No, BB86 is very broadly usable (incl. OS spindles), but does require a different tool kit than the old threaded standard, which may legitimately put some off, though I think it's not a big deal in any case.

Stucky

If only those Breezers had downtube shifter bosses...I'd be all over that!

chaadster

Skepticism about Breezer's claims is utterly baseless and unfounded, if in fact it's the same "skepticism" (and I use the term very loosely) that you've tried to explain before.

Skepticism about the plaudits is reasonable, I guess, but that only goes so far until you've actually ridden one and put it through its paces.

rpenmanparker 

Gotcha again! You are just too easy.

And right, because you like the bike, it is not reasonable for anyone else not to. Makes sense to me. Besides, who are you arguing with in the first place. I just got finished saying it is a must buy. Your insecurity is incredible.

Jarrett2

What's this about?

rms13

I think because it's made with their proprietary cromo tubing and not fancy name brand Reynolds, Columbus or True Temper etc. Same reason that a lot of people shun the Ritchey Logic because it doesn't have a Columbus sticker on it

rpenmanparker 

I wouldn't have said that. Not that what you say is false. It isn't. But that isn't the crux of the discussion.

chaadster

I don't know which scenario you're running in your head, but here in the real world, although you're using the correct words, they're arranged in a cockamamie order which makes you sound daft.

For clarity, I was arguing nothing, and simply posting a counterpoint to your so-called skepticism by calling it out as baseless and unfounded. You're welcome to state your defensive case if you want, and try to explain yourself to readers, but you and I both know that'd be a tremendous waste of time.

As for what's reasonable, it's nothing to do with what I like, but rather the general notion that if you don't know the author, you don't know what you're reading, and you clearly don't know me, ergo, you don't know what's going on, and in which case skepticism is indeed reasonable. The hitch is it needs to be rational skepticism, and that's what seems to causing trouble here.

chaadster

You're Italian in what sense? I've never heard that expression; in what context do you hear this idiom, and what do you think it means?

chaadster

Anyone who doesn't know how instrumental Tom Ritchey was to the development of modern bikes and tubing, first through his use of brazing on oversized tubes, and then through his development of Logic tubing with Tange, optimized for TIG welding, is simply ignorant. Ritchey Logic was the most advanced, modern tubeset in the world for a time, the likes of which Columbus did not have the ability to produce.

rpenmanparker 

Just so you know, the singular of goyim is goy. For future reference...

rpenmanparker 

Unfortunately most folks are ignorant about Tom Ritchey's tubing contributions. Not me, but most people. Rather than seeing the tubing as Ritchey "brand", a very good thing, they see it as no-name, not so good.

bbattle

Has the OP made a decision yet? Was anything posted in this thread helpful to the OP?

rpenmanparker 

Duh! How could it be otherwise?

chaadster

That's even worse, because there's a goddam tubing brand sticker right on the frames which says exactly what it is. People...f'ing pathetic.

Stucky

Oy! I know. Doesn't one use the plural though, when referring to being a part of the [plural] group?

And what's the singular of golem? "Goalie"?



Serious?

I'm Eye-talian in the sense that my grandparents were from Italy.

and.... You've never heard the expression "There's a little Jew in every Italian"?

It comes from the fact that the Roamns occupied the land of israel for some time before and aftyer the time of Christ; so the Jews inter-married with the Romans- extrapolate that out 2000 years, and you can see the likelihood of their being at least a trace of Semitic blood in many Italians is very high. Not to mention that inter-marrying has been going on ever since, to this very day. (My sister is actual married to a half Jew/half Italian...). On the streets of NYC, Jews used to think that I was a Jew!

chaadster

Yes, I know why it could be true in a historical and demographic sense, but I've just never heard it and wondered who says this, where, and to express what.

The irony, of course, is that Jews and Jewish culture are virtually invisible in Italy today, and the Fascist legacy still has a hold on Italian attitudes somewhat. Rome is about the only place you'll find a trace of the Jews.

I'm guessing at this point that the expression is distinctly American, likely specific to NY/NJ, rooted in the NY immigrant experience. Even out here in Detroit, which has a very prominent Italian immigrant history and community, I've never heard such an expression, and certainly not as an expression of novel affinity or common cause between Jews and Italian-Americans. I know Italy well, and cannot imagine such an idiom existing there.

Intresting stuff.

bruce19

I'm Italian. Surname DiGiorgio or anglicized to DeGeorgia. Grandparents (Teresina and Carmine) came here through Ellis Island. Not sure of the date but prior to 1915 or so as I recall. Grew up in an Italian enclave in Hackensack, NJ which is just over the GW Bridge in Jersey. I have never heard that expression. OTOH, I did the "23 and Me" DNA test and discovered that I am 1/10 of 1% Ashkenazi Jew. When you come right down to it we all started in the Kalahari.

rpenmanparker 

I honestly don't think such a phrase ever meant to refer to actual genetics, but rather to stereotypical behavioral similarities, some attractive, some not so much. And given that the simile is so likely based on stereotypes, it is probably not worthwhile to pursue the topic very far.

bruce19

Nor do I. I just thought it interesting that having grown up in an Italian Ghetto back in the day (born in 1946) I never heard that expression. And, ironic that 23 and Me says I do have some Jew in me. I tell my Jewish GF that this would account for my love of Pastrami.

rpenmanparker 

The most Italian sounding of all Jewish deli meats, no?

chaadster

Adding to the interest and irony, and underscoring my point there is likely nothing properly Italian about that saying at all, is that the word ghetto is itself Italian, derived from the island where Venetian Jews were forced to live in the 1500s.

Relatedly, my Italian mother (real Italian, as in born/raised there) just a few weeks ago made a grand eastern European tour which included paying respects at several old Nazi sites and concentration camps, in part as atonement for her father's anti-semitic views, despite the fact he fought as a partigiano in the war. Point being anti-Semitism was not a Nazi invention, and is part of the Italian cultural fabric, just as anti-black racism here wasn't invented by the Klan and is rather deeply woven into all aspects of American culture.

What all this has to do with steel frames I don't recall, so I'll shut up now and leave this line of thought for another day/thread.

bruce19

Yes but according to at least one site it comes from Pastrame, a Yiddish word. My favorite Italian cold cut was always Prosciutto which has a variant called Prosciuttini. Never could tell if the meat was actually different or just the word.

Stucky

Interesting indeed!

I had heard the expression all of my life, and just grew up taking it for granted- thinking it was a common vernacular saying.

It doesn't surprise me that such a saying is not common in Italy. It is likely an observation made by non-Italians; and as you say, may indeed have it's origins in the NY metro area, due to the large Italian population there (as opposed to other areas of the country- like where I now live, where the predominant ancestry is Scots and irish- and most here have never so much as encountered an Italian- nor a Jew!). It likely may have even been intended derogatorily.

I would surmise too, that it may be more of a northern Italian thing. My grand parents were from Naples, and I understand that there was an influx of Jews from the northern border in the 1700's, who converted and assimilated. As opposed to say, the Sicilians- who, if they possess any traces of Semitic ancestry, it likely ancient.
I had never really given any thought either, about the existence or non-existence of Jewish culture in Italy- but now that you mention, it's absence is not surprising, as the country seems to occasionally manifest bouts of anti-Semitism- from the expelling of the Jews from Rome in the 1st Century- to the Inquisition [shudder]; to the pope's[sic] Concordat with Hitler.....

Hmmmm...the reference to the saying even worked it's way into the old sit-com All In The Family!:

Archie Bunker: "When I was a kid, I worked in the garment District- I was the only Gentile down there... well, except for a smattering of Dagos- but they may as well be Jews anyway..." LOL!

My apologies to the OP if I've derailed his thread.



Interestingly, I've hard geneticists say that there is at least a smidgen of Jewish DNA in just about everyone on earth today. I know a guy who is German and Nordic....and his DNA came back with about 10% Jewish blood! And I've heard that even in Asians, they find traces of Jewish DNA.....

dr_lha

Indeed. I've heard plenty of people going on about how the fact that the Road Logic says it uses "Ritchey Logic WCS Tubing" on it rather than Columbus/Reynolds means it must be "bog standard 4130 tubing then".

But the tubing isn't important, it's the ride. You'll have a hard time finding anyone who's ridden a Tom Ritchey frame who has anything but glowing things to say about them.

FYI Both my steel bikes have Ritchey Tubing on them. My Rockhopper dates back from the days when Specialized built bikes with "Ritchey Nitanium" tubing.