REVIEW: Bikes Direct Motobecane Gran Premio Elite
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Almost all bike makers use effective seat tube as the nominal size. Effective seat tube is the distance from the BB to the top of the effective top tube. So if you understand ETT, you also understand EST. BD doesn't size that way. They use actual seat tube which is a problem on sloping top tube bikes.
Really, who uses EST? I've never seen it, and don't understand why it would be used.
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I've commuted on Vuelta Corsa Lites for two years. Fantastic hubs and they are still perfectly true. Best lightweight everyday wheels for the money, easily.
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Almost all bike makers use effective seat tube as the nominal size. Effective seat tube is the distance from the BB to the top of the effective top tube. So if you understand ETT, you also understand EST. BD doesn't size that way. They use actual seat tube which is a problem on sloping top tube bikes.
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OP, First I think you bought the right size frame. For those who insist you should have bought a larger frame, consider that a Giant OCR-C bike with a 50cm seat tube is a "medium" for folks 5'8". If you need to change the stem, go for it, but when buying a bike on-line, I'd stay with the manufacturer's recommendation. As for the brakes, yes 5800 would perform better than Tektros, but consider that upgrading the pads to orange Kool-Stops would give you much more braking power. They also make 50/50 black/ orange compound pad that is very effective. I made this change based on another BF member recommendation when I was considering Shimano brakes and found it very effective. I still have Tektro brakes on my Giant and upgrading the brake pads was a lot less expensive.
As for changing a saddle. Many serious cyclists change their saddle, it's one of the first items to be changed. Once you find a saddle you like, remember it for your next road bike.
The Gossamer crank is a good quality crank that will last you for a long time. However, it is heavy. I purchased a compact Gossamer when I changed from a triple to a double. This year, I changed to a Shimano 6700, much lighter.
Good luck with your bike, glad you are satisfied.
As for changing a saddle. Many serious cyclists change their saddle, it's one of the first items to be changed. Once you find a saddle you like, remember it for your next road bike.
The Gossamer crank is a good quality crank that will last you for a long time. However, it is heavy. I purchased a compact Gossamer when I changed from a triple to a double. This year, I changed to a Shimano 6700, much lighter.
Good luck with your bike, glad you are satisfied.
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It is not explicit, it is implicit. Look at the Tarmac in 54 cm size. Where do you think that number comes from? Do you think the EST is 48 cm, the actual size of the seat tube. No, it is just about 54 giving a rationale for the nominal size. But the BD actual seat tube is the size. Giant's M size is clearly a 54 while the actual seat tube is 50 cm. The drop between the EST and the actual is just about 4 cm. the nominal size numbers come from somewhere. The two most common possibilities are the EST and, much less frequently, the actual sest tube.
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Trek does not use EST either.
Clearly, if EST even exists, it's not used by "nearly every" (or whatever rpenparker asserted) manufacturer if the three largest American bike brands don't use it.
Clearly, if EST even exists, it's not used by "nearly every" (or whatever rpenparker asserted) manufacturer if the three largest American bike brands don't use it.
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OP, First I think you bought the right size frame. For those who insist you should have bought a larger frame, consider that a Giant OCR-C bike with a 50cm seat tube is a "medium" for folks 5'8". If you need to change the stem, go for it, but when buying a bike on-line, I'd stay with the manufacturer's recommendation. As for the brakes, yes 5800 would perform better than Tektros, but consider that upgrading the pads to orange Kool-Stops would give you much more braking power. They also make 50/50 black/ orange compound pad that is very effective. I made this change based on another BF member recommendation when I was considering Shimano brakes and found it very effective. I still have Tektro brakes on my Giant and upgrading the brake pads was a lot less expensive.
As for changing a saddle. Many serious cyclists change their saddle, it's one of the first items to be changed. Once you find a saddle you like, remember it for your next road bike.
The Gossamer crank is a good quality crank that will last you for a long time. However, it is heavy. I purchased a compact Gossamer when I changed from a triple to a double. This year, I changed to a Shimano 6700, much lighter.
Good luck with your bike, glad you are satisfied.
As for changing a saddle. Many serious cyclists change their saddle, it's one of the first items to be changed. Once you find a saddle you like, remember it for your next road bike.
The Gossamer crank is a good quality crank that will last you for a long time. However, it is heavy. I purchased a compact Gossamer when I changed from a triple to a double. This year, I changed to a Shimano 6700, much lighter.
Good luck with your bike, glad you are satisfied.
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It is not explicit, it is implicit. Look at the Tarmac in 54 cm size. Where do you think that number comes from? Do you think the EST is 48 cm, the actual size of the seat tube. No, it is just about 54 giving a rationale for the nominal size. But the BD actual seat tube is the size. Giant's M size is clearly a 54 while the actual seat tube is 50 cm. The drop between the EST and the actual is just about 4 cm. the nominal size numbers come from somewhere. The two most common possibilities are the EST and, much less frequently, the actual sest tube.
Neither they, nor any of the major brands, use anything called EST. i believe this is something you made up, and is in any case, a useless concept.
As for how Trek arrive at frame size designations, that's another matter not directly related to seat tube measurement methodology, and nothing to do with any so-called EST contrivance.
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I don't know what you're talking about. Trek clearly indicate seat tube length as measured center to top.
Neither they, nor any of the major brands, use anything called EST. i believe this is something you made up, and is in any case, a useless concept.
As for how Trek arrive at frame size designations, that's another matter not directly related to seat tube measurement methodology, and nothing to do with any so-called EST contrivance.
Neither they, nor any of the major brands, use anything called EST. i believe this is something you made up, and is in any case, a useless concept.
As for how Trek arrive at frame size designations, that's another matter not directly related to seat tube measurement methodology, and nothing to do with any so-called EST contrivance.
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I don't know what BD's 51 means, but if I cared to know, I'd look at the geometry chart. See how that works?
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54 is the frame size, not the seatpost length. Look at the geometry charts; it will clear up your confusion. Also sticking to the standard terminology and definitions, rather than making up your own, will help alleviate confusion.
I don't know what BD's 51 means, but if I cared to know, I'd look at the geometry chart. See how that works?
I don't know what BD's 51 means, but if I cared to know, I'd look at the geometry chart. See how that works?
This is ridiculous. When top tubes were horizontal, the size was the seat tube (not post) length either to the center of the top tube or to the top of the top tube...in most cases. If you rode a 54 cm bike back then, and haven't changed your riding style or shrunk too much from age, you most likely would ride one now. Certainly I still do. So with a sloping top tube, the actual seat tube length no longer corresponds to that same size as it used to. So what measurement does correspond to that size? The seat tube length extended all the way up to the top of the effective top tube, just as if the top tube were still horizontal. That is the effective seat tube length. I didn't make it up. Most bike brands gives their bikes nominal sizes based on their correspondence to bikes sizes that were formerly based on seat tube length WHEN TOP TUBES WERE HORIZONTAL. That seat tube length used to be the actual length, but now it is more properly called the effective seat tube length.
Just a few brands give their bikes nominal sizes that are based on the shorter actual seat tube length. BD does that. So their 51 cm bike fits like most other brands 54 cm bike. (Their top tube doesn't slope very much, hence only a 3 cm differential between actual and effective seat tube length. This really isn't rocket science. Why are you so insistent on not seeing what is staring you right in the face?
As far as looking it up on the geometry chart, that is the key to understanding what I am saying. If you did it, you would understand. If you don't care to look it up, why are you arguing with me?
I'm just trying to help OP understand that his 51 cm BD bike is about the same size as a 54 cm bike from most other brands and why that is the case i.e. because BD uses a different sizing system than we normally see. I'm trying to help him. I can't see how your denying the obvious is helping at all.
Last edited by rpenmanparker; 08-08-15 at 11:11 PM.
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Just so nobody thinks I made it up:
"The effective seat tube length is the distance between the bottom bracket and the point at which a virtual horizontal top tube would intersect the seat tube."
Reference: Seat Tube Length (Effective) | www.bikecad.ca
"The effective seat tube length is the distance between the bottom bracket and the point at which a virtual horizontal top tube would intersect the seat tube."
Reference: Seat Tube Length (Effective) | www.bikecad.ca
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Just so nobody thinks I made it up:
"The effective seat tube length is the distance between the bottom bracket and the point at which a virtual horizontal top tube would intersect the seat tube."
Reference: Seat Tube Length (Effective) | www.bikecad.ca
"The effective seat tube length is the distance between the bottom bracket and the point at which a virtual horizontal top tube would intersect the seat tube."
Reference: Seat Tube Length (Effective) | www.bikecad.ca
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The two measurements I look at first are ETT and standover. Also, I use PBH, not pants inseam as the basis for standover. In this case, a 54 specialized and 53 BD are pretty darn close.
I think I could make either a 51 or 53 BD work. I can't say I'd look forward to dropping nearly a K without test riding first though.
I'd love to buy one of their ti frames, but I'm in between sizes there as well, from what I recall.
I'm literally thinking of buying both sizes and returning the size I don't want if I go BD ti.
The ti and steel BD bikes are smokin deals though. If I were quite certain about geo, I would buy without hesitation.
I think I could make either a 51 or 53 BD work. I can't say I'd look forward to dropping nearly a K without test riding first though.
I'd love to buy one of their ti frames, but I'm in between sizes there as well, from what I recall.
I'm literally thinking of buying both sizes and returning the size I don't want if I go BD ti.
The ti and steel BD bikes are smokin deals though. If I were quite certain about geo, I would buy without hesitation.
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That is like saying, "36 is the pants size, not the waist size". What do you think the bike size means...at least roughly?
This is ridiculous. When top tubes were horizontal, the size was the seat tube (not post) length either to the center of the top tube or to the top of the top tube...in most cases. If you rode a 54 cm bike back then, and haven't changed your riding style or shrunk too much from age, you most likely would ride one now. Certainly I still do. So with a sloping top tube, the actual seat tube length no longer corresponds to that same size as it used to. So what measurement does correspond to that size? The seat tube length extended all the way up to the top of the effective top tube, just as if the top tube were still horizontal. That is the effective seat tube length. I didn't make it up. Most bike brands gives their bikes nominal sizes based on their correspondence to bikes sizes that were formerly based on seat tube length WHEN TOP TUBES WERE HORIZONTAL. That seat tube length used to be the actual length, but now it is more properly called the effective seat tube length.
Just a few brands give their bikes nominal sizes that are based on the shorter actual seat tube length. BD does that. So their 51 cm bike fits like most other brands 54 cm bike. (Their top tube doesn't slope very much, hence only a 3 cm differential between actual and effective seat tube length. This really isn't rocket science. Why are you so insistent on not seeing what is staring you right in the face?
As far as looking it up on the geometry chart, that is the key to understanding what I am saying. If you did it, you would understand. If you don't care to look it up, why are you arguing with me?
I'm just trying to help OP understand that his 51 cm BD bike is about the same size as a 54 cm bike from most other brands and why that is the case i.e. because BD uses a different sizing system than we normally see. I'm trying to help him. I can't see how your denying the obvious is helping at all.
This is ridiculous. When top tubes were horizontal, the size was the seat tube (not post) length either to the center of the top tube or to the top of the top tube...in most cases. If you rode a 54 cm bike back then, and haven't changed your riding style or shrunk too much from age, you most likely would ride one now. Certainly I still do. So with a sloping top tube, the actual seat tube length no longer corresponds to that same size as it used to. So what measurement does correspond to that size? The seat tube length extended all the way up to the top of the effective top tube, just as if the top tube were still horizontal. That is the effective seat tube length. I didn't make it up. Most bike brands gives their bikes nominal sizes based on their correspondence to bikes sizes that were formerly based on seat tube length WHEN TOP TUBES WERE HORIZONTAL. That seat tube length used to be the actual length, but now it is more properly called the effective seat tube length.
Just a few brands give their bikes nominal sizes that are based on the shorter actual seat tube length. BD does that. So their 51 cm bike fits like most other brands 54 cm bike. (Their top tube doesn't slope very much, hence only a 3 cm differential between actual and effective seat tube length. This really isn't rocket science. Why are you so insistent on not seeing what is staring you right in the face?
As far as looking it up on the geometry chart, that is the key to understanding what I am saying. If you did it, you would understand. If you don't care to look it up, why are you arguing with me?
I'm just trying to help OP understand that his 51 cm BD bike is about the same size as a 54 cm bike from most other brands and why that is the case i.e. because BD uses a different sizing system than we normally see. I'm trying to help him. I can't see how your denying the obvious is helping at all.
Seat tube length, whether actual, effective, Martian or whatever you want to call it, is literally the LAST frame size dimension anyone needs to worry about. Seatposts offer practically infinite adjustability.
But, if you want to send the poor OP on a wild goose chase for pointless, virtual measurements and call that "helping them," you're entitled to do that, but I think it's unfortunate.
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Maybe I didn't make it clear enough. I did not mean that most bike makers list effective seat tube as a measurement in their geometry chart. I meant that their size numbers at the top of the column closely relate to the EST. So a size 54 Tarmac roughly has a 54 cm EST. With BD and a few others the situation is different. In those cases the size number at the top of the column closely relate to the actual seat tube length. That is the difference that causes confusion. Neither number should be the be all and end all of bike choosing and bike fitting. But the difference does explain why two companies whose bikes would fit similarly call them different sizes. And in case anyone remembers, that is all I was trying to inform OP of in the first place.
Last edited by rpenmanparker; 08-09-15 at 07:22 AM.
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*Ranting about effective seat tube measurements*
For those of you who don't think I bought the right size, I did. It feels right. That's what matters. A new stem might be a good buy down the line, but for now I like it. I looked at the top tube measurements to make my decision, mostly. I based it off of other bikes that I rode that felt comfortable (Kona Honkey Tonk and Jamis Quest).
Quit yelling about imaginary measurements that are susceptible to change (everything is adjustable) and go for a ride. That's what I'm doing. On my shiny new bike
For those of you who don't think I bought the right size, I did. It feels right. That's what matters. A new stem might be a good buy down the line, but for now I like it. I looked at the top tube measurements to make my decision, mostly. I based it off of other bikes that I rode that felt comfortable (Kona Honkey Tonk and Jamis Quest).
Quit yelling about imaginary measurements that are susceptible to change (everything is adjustable) and go for a ride. That's what I'm doing. On my shiny new bike
#43
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*Ranting about effective seat tube measurements*
For those of you who don't think I bought the right size, I did. It feels right. That's what matters. A new stem might be a good buy down the line, but for now I like it. I looked at the top tube measurements to make my decision, mostly. I based it off of other bikes that I rode that felt comfortable (Kona Honkey Tonk and Jamis Quest).
Quit yelling about imaginary measurements that are susceptible to change (everything is adjustable) and go for a ride. That's what I'm doing. On my shiny new bike
For those of you who don't think I bought the right size, I did. It feels right. That's what matters. A new stem might be a good buy down the line, but for now I like it. I looked at the top tube measurements to make my decision, mostly. I based it off of other bikes that I rode that felt comfortable (Kona Honkey Tonk and Jamis Quest).
Quit yelling about imaginary measurements that are susceptible to change (everything is adjustable) and go for a ride. That's what I'm doing. On my shiny new bike
#44
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Maybe I didn't make it clear enough. I did not mean that most bike makers list effective seat tube as a measurement in their geometry chart. I meant that their size numbers at the top of the column closely relate to the EST. So a size 54 Tarmac roughly has a 54 cm EST. With BD and a few others the situation is different. In those cases the size number at the top of the column closely relate to the actual seat tube length. That is the difference that causes confusion. Neither number should be the be all and end all of bike choosing and bike fitting. But the difference does explain why two companies whose bikes would fit similarly call them different sizes. And in case anyone remembers, that is all I was trying to inform OP of in the first place.
So yes, frame size discrepancies for a given number exist, and for myriad reasons, not just EST (which I still hate and think is utterly pointless and obfuscating).
Giant, the first to bring compact geometry to the market and the world's largest bike manufacturer, use S, M, M/L, and L to designate frame size, which is probably the most easily comprehensible protocol we've got going, and requires no arcane knowledge or tie to a long-gone, historical "standard" which was never standardized.
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Just so nobody thinks I made it up:
"The effective seat tube length is the distance between the bottom bracket and the point at which a virtual horizontal top tube would intersect the seat tube."
Reference: Seat Tube Length (Effective) | www.bikecad.ca
"The effective seat tube length is the distance between the bottom bracket and the point at which a virtual horizontal top tube would intersect the seat tube."
Reference: Seat Tube Length (Effective) | www.bikecad.ca
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Oh, I saw that this thread had a new comment, and I thought someone had might have commented on the Motobecane...nevermind. :-)
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Not quite stack and reach, which are the best bike size indicators. ETT has the problem of being dependent upon the seat tube angle which reach doesn't. Similarly, EST doesn't take into account the head tube height from the BB, which stack does. In stack and reach both are related to the bottom bracket as a fixed point.
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Man! Too many choices! I just ran across this from nashbar. Very tempting.
Nashbar Steel Cyclocross Bike
$100 less than the Bikes direct bike, probably heavier, steel fork, 105 set. Crappy brakes.
Overall, probably a bit slower than both the Motobecane and the Jamis Quest comp, but tempting enough to make me want to buy it to try it out...since nashbar seems to have a pretty good return policy.
Nashbar Steel Cyclocross Bike
$100 less than the Bikes direct bike, probably heavier, steel fork, 105 set. Crappy brakes.
Overall, probably a bit slower than both the Motobecane and the Jamis Quest comp, but tempting enough to make me want to buy it to try it out...since nashbar seems to have a pretty good return policy.
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Man! Too many choices! I just ran across this from nashbar. Very tempting.
Nashbar Steel Cyclocross Bike
$100 less than the Bikes direct bike, probably heavier, steel fork, 105 set. Crappy brakes.
Overall, probably a bit slower than both the Motobecane and the Jamis Quest comp, but tempting enough to make me want to buy it to try it out...since nashbar seems to have a pretty good return policy.
Nashbar Steel Cyclocross Bike
$100 less than the Bikes direct bike, probably heavier, steel fork, 105 set. Crappy brakes.
Overall, probably a bit slower than both the Motobecane and the Jamis Quest comp, but tempting enough to make me want to buy it to try it out...since nashbar seems to have a pretty good return policy.
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Visit me at the Tundra Man Workshop
Visit me at the Tundra Man Workshop
#50
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: SoCal
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Man! Too many choices! I just ran across this from nashbar. Very tempting.
Nashbar Steel Cyclocross Bike
$100 less than the Bikes direct bike, probably heavier, steel fork, 105 set. Crappy brakes.
Overall, probably a bit slower than both the Motobecane and the Jamis Quest comp, but tempting enough to make me want to buy it to try it out...since nashbar seems to have a pretty good return policy.
Nashbar Steel Cyclocross Bike
$100 less than the Bikes direct bike, probably heavier, steel fork, 105 set. Crappy brakes.
Overall, probably a bit slower than both the Motobecane and the Jamis Quest comp, but tempting enough to make me want to buy it to try it out...since nashbar seems to have a pretty good return policy.
Free Shipping* Save up to 60% off new Cyclocross Road Bikes - Motobecane Fantom CX Clearance
But yeah, if you want a dedicated road bike you may be let down. Canti brakes are not great for serious road riding, tires are big and heavy and gearing is too low