Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

SRAM eTap

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

SRAM eTap

Old 08-27-15, 03:21 PM
  #101  
Senior Member
 
halfspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SE Minnesota
Posts: 12,275

Bikes: are better than yours.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Mumonkan
sram is like the king of not knowing how to make an FD shift, theyre probably looking ahead

i think this system would rock with a single ring drivetrain
ftfy
__________________
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
halfspeed is offline  
Old 08-27-15, 03:22 PM
  #102  
Senior Member
 
halfspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SE Minnesota
Posts: 12,275

Bikes: are better than yours.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
With mechanical it is not desirable to double shift, to shift both front and back.
It isn't?
__________________
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
halfspeed is offline  
Old 08-27-15, 03:37 PM
  #103  
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by halfspeed
It isn't?
Yep.

Do you progress through the gear ratios in order going back and forth one front ring to the other on every shift? Or do you use each individual ring and the rear cluster to define a set of gears and stay on one front ring as much as practical?
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ
No matter where I go, here I am...

Last edited by rpenmanparker; 08-27-15 at 03:42 PM.
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 08-27-15, 03:41 PM
  #104  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Allen, TX
Posts: 1,916

Bikes: Look 585

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by halfspeed
It isn't?
+1 Assuming a "double shift" means shifting front and rear at the same time, I've don't thousands of double shifts, with both down tube shifters and brake lever shifters. Never had any problems.
bikepro is offline  
Old 08-27-15, 04:50 PM
  #105  
don't try this at home.
 
rm -rf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: N. KY
Posts: 5,918
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 964 Post(s)
Liked 496 Times in 343 Posts
I see two situations where the simple Sram two paddle system is not optimal:

Starting or finishing a climb

My Di2 is set for shifting 3 cogs with a "long press" (over 1/2 second).

In the big ring, arriving at the base of a climb, I long press both bottom levers for 1/2 second. That shifts to the 34 from the 50 chainring, and 3 harder cogs in the back. That's a good start to the climb. I might shift one more cog right away, depending on the grade of the climb.

Starting on the downhill, it's a long press of both top levers. That's the 50 chainring and 3 easier cogs in the back.

Not noticing which chainring is in use

Occasionally I think I must be in the small chainring, and hit the top button to shift to the big ring. But I'm already there, so nothing happens. Holding both paddles on the Sram shifters would drop it back to the 34.



~~~~

I think the "double shift" in a previous post is referring to something like the old "half-step" gearing. The 2 front chainrings and 5 cogs in the back were set so that the small chainring shifted to the next gear ratio in between the two adjacent cogs with the big ring.

Something like this chart, half step 42 and 46 chainrings, with a 24 granny. The two larger chainrings have to be close in size for this to work, not like a 50/34. And the few rear cogs are widely spaced, not like today's 10 or 11 speed cassettes.




The rear cog shift on a Di2 is instantaneous. I was clicking one more cog every two or three pedal strokes, under load, when the hill kept getting steeper today.
Shifting the front isn't that fast. I wouldn't like automatic computer controlled front chainring shifting.
rm -rf is offline  
Old 08-27-15, 05:01 PM
  #106  
Senior Member
 
halfspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SE Minnesota
Posts: 12,275

Bikes: are better than yours.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
Yep.

Do you progress through the gear ratios in order going back and forth one front ring to the other on every shift? Or do you use each individual ring and the rear cluster to define a set of gears and stay on one front ring as much as practical?
I double shift quite often. It's especially useful when transitioning from the big ring to the small on a climb and I'm I don't want to go from big/small to small/small. Hit both thumb shifters at the same time about the same number of clicks and I can go from big/small to small/middle for a slightly easier gear.
__________________
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
halfspeed is offline  
Old 08-27-15, 05:28 PM
  #107  
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by halfspeed
I double shift quite often. It's especially useful when transitioning from the big ring to the small on a climb and I'm I don't want to go from big/small to small/small. Hit both thumb shifters at the same time about the same number of clicks and I can go from big/small to small/middle for a slightly easier gear.
Sure you do, but gearing is still arranged to allow two ranges of gears one on the big ring, one on the small. Double shifts occur when moving between the ranges, which is much less frequent than shifts within the ranges. Most shifts are within those ranges, not between them. If I am wrong about that, just say so.
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 08-27-15, 05:48 PM
  #108  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,977
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1638 Post(s)
Liked 741 Times in 495 Posts
Nice! Time to start saving my $...
__________________
nine mile skid on a ten mile ride
02Giant is offline  
Old 08-27-15, 06:09 PM
  #109  
RJM
I'm doing it wrong.
 
RJM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,875

Bikes: Rivendell Appaloosa, Rivendell Frank Jones Sr., Trek Fuel EX9, Kona Jake the Snake CR, Niner Sir9

Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9742 Post(s)
Liked 2,812 Times in 1,664 Posts
I'm interested in this group for a steel frame I'm thinking about getting that won't go well with dI2's wires. Not that I'm interested enough to be an early adopter, but just keeping an eye on it.
RJM is offline  
Old 08-27-15, 06:21 PM
  #110  
FLIR Kitten to 0.05C
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 5,331

Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked 406 Times in 254 Posts
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
Sure you do, but gearing is still arranged to allow two ranges of gears one on the big ring, one on the small. Double shifts occur when moving between the ranges, which is much less frequent than shifts within the ranges. Most shifts are within those ranges, not between them. If I am wrong about that, just say so.
Depends on where and how you ride.

Up here, lots of rollers that you can only charge half way up with momentum from a previous roller. So you're in your 50x23 or 50x25 at a reasonable cadence, and want one more gear stepping down you'd double shift (and Campag or Di2 IIRC multishift in back) to say a 34x16 or a 34x17. Something I do many times on a daily basis.

The alternative without either double shifting (or multishifting)..is either grinding in a sub-optimal gearing/cadence, or needing to do 1 left hand shift and 5 right hand shifts which takes a good bit longer.
Marcus_Ti is offline  
Old 08-27-15, 09:10 PM
  #111  
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,295
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Following the marketing blitz with interest.

Shifting front and rear more or less together is doable according to one first-ride reviewer, you press both paddles to shift the front then let off one paddle which shifts the rear.

One comment many first-ride reviewers make is that the shift speed feels slower than di2 or mechanical. I keep waiting for a reviewer to point out what seems like the obvious reason for this. Since pressing both paddles at once shifts the front, a very fast response speed to pressing a single paddle would lead to unintentional shifts if you mean to press both paddles at once but instead press one very slightly before the other.

In any case I hope the system turns out to be great, options and innovation are always good.
globecanvas is offline  
Old 08-27-15, 09:31 PM
  #112  
Senior Member
 
halfspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SE Minnesota
Posts: 12,275

Bikes: are better than yours.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
Sure you do, but gearing is still arranged to allow two ranges of gears one on the big ring, one on the small. Double shifts occur when moving between the ranges, which is much less frequent than shifts within the ranges. Most shifts are within those ranges, not between them. If I am wrong about that, just say so.
That doesn't make it "undesirable".
__________________
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
halfspeed is offline  
Old 08-28-15, 05:59 AM
  #113  
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by halfspeed
That doesn't make it "undesirable".
Relatively, yeah it does. My point is this. So pretend you're a mentoring a newbie. Do you teach him to go back and forth through every gear ratio or to stay on one ring as long as practical? Stay on one ring? Okay, why? Because it is more desirable to do so. Then when he has to, you teach him to make the double shift to get to the other ring. Okay, so can you live with single shifts that get you where you need to be are more desirable instead of double shifts are undesirable? That works just as well for me.
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 08-28-15, 06:15 AM
  #114  
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Depends on where and how you ride.

Up here, lots of rollers that you can only charge half way up with momentum from a previous roller. So you're in your 50x23 or 50x25 at a reasonable cadence, and want one more gear stepping down you'd double shift (and Campag or Di2 IIRC multishift in back) to say a 34x16 or a 34x17. Something I do many times on a daily basis.

The alternative without either double shifting (or multishifting)..is either grinding in a sub-optimal gearing/cadence, or needing to do 1 left hand shift and 5 right hand shifts which takes a good bit longer.
I didn't say you COULDN'T double shift when you had to, I said it was undesirable (okay maybe just LESS desirable) to do it. I meant it is harder than single shifting, and you wouldn't choose to do it if it could be avoided. You don't do it just to get to the next gear ratio only to come back to the original ring and then back and forth. I am not trying to discredit your riding technique, only to point out that programmed, electronic shifting can make moving smoothly up the gear ratios from one to the next closest a non issue.
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 08-28-15, 06:35 AM
  #115  
pluralis majestatis
 
redfooj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: you rope
Posts: 4,206

Bikes: a DuhRosa

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 537 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
double tap sti ergopower im amused how how much one can exaggerate the simple act of shifting a gear.

"sram/campy/shimano/suntour/sachs is more intuitive to me i can shift without thinking or rewiring my brain".......

theres at most 2 control points per hand and a chain that can go either up, or down. it aint rocket science. they all work the same.
redfooj is offline  
Old 08-28-15, 07:05 AM
  #116  
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,275

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1428 Post(s)
Liked 697 Times in 353 Posts
Originally Posted by redfooj
double tap sti ergopower im amused how how much one can exaggerate the simple act of shifting a gear.

"sram/campy/shimano/suntour/sachs is more intuitive to me i can shift without thinking or rewiring my brain".......

theres at most 2 control points per hand and a chain that can go either up, or down. it aint rocket science. they all work the same.


Both Di2, and STI are not intuitive for new users. The same lever gives you an easier gear when it's on the left, and harder gear when it's on the right. There's no reason for that in a electronic group where you can program the buttons to do what you want.

SRAM got that, and made the first group that, out of the box, really does not work in the same way as a mechanical group.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 08-28-15, 07:20 AM
  #117  
Senior Member
 
halfspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SE Minnesota
Posts: 12,275

Bikes: are better than yours.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
Relatively, yeah it does. My point is this. So pretend you're a mentoring a newbie. Do you teach him to go back and forth through every gear ratio or to stay on one ring as long as practical? Stay on one ring? Okay, why? Because it is more desirable to do so. Then when he has to, you teach him to make the double shift to get to the other ring. Okay, so can you live with single shifts that get you where you need to be are more desirable instead of double shifts are undesirable? That works just as well for me.
I'm not going to argue with this because I know you're smart enough to figure out what's wrong with this logic on your own.
__________________
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
halfspeed is offline  
Old 08-28-15, 07:35 AM
  #118  
pluralis majestatis
 
redfooj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: you rope
Posts: 4,206

Bikes: a DuhRosa

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 537 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
[/B]

Both Di2, and STI are not intuitive for new users. The same lever gives you an easier gear when it's on the left, and harder gear when it's on the right.
Meh. Its not mentally taxing to commit to memory how 2 levers maps to binary derailleurs.

Ive owned and used shifters on DT, bar-ends, twist, trigger, those funky XTR dual-control pods, ergopower, sti, etc. All different in implementation, but at the end of the day its not exactly like conducting an orchestra while controlling air traffic.

It feels like bicyclists sometime unecessarily embellish the complication of what is, in spirit, one of the most elegantly simple machine designed by man.

Or maybe my bar is set too high?
redfooj is offline  
Old 08-28-15, 07:36 AM
  #119  
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by halfspeed
I'm not going to argue with this because I know you're smart enough to figure out what's wrong with this logic on your own.
Uh, not really. But it's okay. I get it that folks take pride in their double shifting prowess. Carry on.
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 08-28-15, 08:33 AM
  #120  
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,275

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1428 Post(s)
Liked 697 Times in 353 Posts
Originally Posted by redfooj
Meh. Its not mentally taxing to commit to memory how 2 levers maps to binary derailleurs.

Ive owned and used shifters on DT, bar-ends, twist, trigger, those funky XTR dual-control pods, ergopower, sti, etc. All different in implementation, but at the end of the day its not exactly like conducting an orchestra while controlling air traffic.

It feels like bicyclists sometime unecessarily embellish the complication of what is, in spirit, one of the most elegantly simple machine designed by man.

Or maybe my bar is set too high?
Obviously all those systems work, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a better way to do it.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 08-28-15, 08:37 AM
  #121  
Custom User Title
 
RPK79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Posts: 11,239

Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Quintana Roo Kilo

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2863 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by redfooj
Or maybe my bar is set too high?
Slam it.
RPK79 is offline  
Old 08-28-15, 08:47 AM
  #122  
pluralis majestatis
 
redfooj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: you rope
Posts: 4,206

Bikes: a DuhRosa

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 537 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Obviously all those systems work, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a better way to do it.
Sure. Absolutely agreed with you - it's better.

I just think the significance of this differentiation is inflated.
redfooj is offline  
Old 08-28-15, 11:40 AM
  #123  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Wireless ftw! Definitely will get a wireless group for the next bike, probably going to wait until a few generations later so they can work out all the bugs.
greenlight149 is offline  
Old 08-28-15, 12:50 PM
  #124  
don't try this at home.
 
rm -rf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: N. KY
Posts: 5,918
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 964 Post(s)
Liked 496 Times in 343 Posts
It's interesting how much shifting motions just become muscle memory. I shift without consciously thinking about which finger to move. And steering is the same way. Bikes have a learning curve.

For the rear derailleur, my Campagnolo 10 speed shifters have a thumb button to go smaller cog, and one paddle to go bigger cog. So when I first rode my Di2 bike, I was waving my thumb in the air next to the shifter for a smaller cog, or pressing the wider bottom shifter paddle for a larger cog shift. Neither was correct, of course.

After a couple of rides, it was all automatic. And now I can switch between bikes and pretty much instantly convert to that bike's methods.


Originally Posted by globecanvas
Following the marketing blitz with interest.

Shifting front and rear more or less together is doable according to one first-ride reviewer, you press both paddles to shift the front then let off one paddle which shifts the rear.

One comment many first-ride reviewers make is that the shift speed feels slower than di2 or mechanical. I keep waiting for a reviewer to point out what seems like the obvious reason for this. Since pressing both paddles at once shifts the front, a very fast response speed to pressing a single paddle would lead to unintentional shifts if you mean to press both paddles at once but instead press one very slightly before the other.

In any case I hope the system turns out to be great, options and innovation are always good.
We'll have to see user reports of the Sram shifters in use. This makes sense, I wonder how many milliseconds it waits on a back shift to see if the front is going to be pressed too. Or I suppose it could start shifting the rear immediately, then shift back to the original cog if the front gets shifted instead. It probably wouldn't be noticeable to the rider.
rm -rf is offline  
Old 08-28-15, 01:14 PM
  #125  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
GCN test ride video seems to show great usability.
I'm looking forward to it.
Video: GCN rides the new SRAM Red eTap
cruiserhead is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.