SRAM eTap
#103
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Yep.
Do you progress through the gear ratios in order going back and forth one front ring to the other on every shift? Or do you use each individual ring and the rear cluster to define a set of gears and stay on one front ring as much as practical?
Do you progress through the gear ratios in order going back and forth one front ring to the other on every shift? Or do you use each individual ring and the rear cluster to define a set of gears and stay on one front ring as much as practical?
Last edited by rpenmanparker; 08-27-15 at 03:42 PM.
#105
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I see two situations where the simple Sram two paddle system is not optimal:
Starting or finishing a climb
My Di2 is set for shifting 3 cogs with a "long press" (over 1/2 second).
In the big ring, arriving at the base of a climb, I long press both bottom levers for 1/2 second. That shifts to the 34 from the 50 chainring, and 3 harder cogs in the back. That's a good start to the climb. I might shift one more cog right away, depending on the grade of the climb.
Starting on the downhill, it's a long press of both top levers. That's the 50 chainring and 3 easier cogs in the back.
Not noticing which chainring is in use
Occasionally I think I must be in the small chainring, and hit the top button to shift to the big ring. But I'm already there, so nothing happens. Holding both paddles on the Sram shifters would drop it back to the 34.
~~~~
I think the "double shift" in a previous post is referring to something like the old "half-step" gearing. The 2 front chainrings and 5 cogs in the back were set so that the small chainring shifted to the next gear ratio in between the two adjacent cogs with the big ring.
Something like this chart, half step 42 and 46 chainrings, with a 24 granny. The two larger chainrings have to be close in size for this to work, not like a 50/34. And the few rear cogs are widely spaced, not like today's 10 or 11 speed cassettes.
The rear cog shift on a Di2 is instantaneous. I was clicking one more cog every two or three pedal strokes, under load, when the hill kept getting steeper today.
Shifting the front isn't that fast. I wouldn't like automatic computer controlled front chainring shifting.
Starting or finishing a climb
My Di2 is set for shifting 3 cogs with a "long press" (over 1/2 second).
In the big ring, arriving at the base of a climb, I long press both bottom levers for 1/2 second. That shifts to the 34 from the 50 chainring, and 3 harder cogs in the back. That's a good start to the climb. I might shift one more cog right away, depending on the grade of the climb.
Starting on the downhill, it's a long press of both top levers. That's the 50 chainring and 3 easier cogs in the back.
Not noticing which chainring is in use
Occasionally I think I must be in the small chainring, and hit the top button to shift to the big ring. But I'm already there, so nothing happens. Holding both paddles on the Sram shifters would drop it back to the 34.
~~~~
I think the "double shift" in a previous post is referring to something like the old "half-step" gearing. The 2 front chainrings and 5 cogs in the back were set so that the small chainring shifted to the next gear ratio in between the two adjacent cogs with the big ring.
Something like this chart, half step 42 and 46 chainrings, with a 24 granny. The two larger chainrings have to be close in size for this to work, not like a 50/34. And the few rear cogs are widely spaced, not like today's 10 or 11 speed cassettes.
The rear cog shift on a Di2 is instantaneous. I was clicking one more cog every two or three pedal strokes, under load, when the hill kept getting steeper today.
Shifting the front isn't that fast. I wouldn't like automatic computer controlled front chainring shifting.
#106
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I double shift quite often. It's especially useful when transitioning from the big ring to the small on a climb and I'm I don't want to go from big/small to small/small. Hit both thumb shifters at the same time about the same number of clicks and I can go from big/small to small/middle for a slightly easier gear.
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#107
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I double shift quite often. It's especially useful when transitioning from the big ring to the small on a climb and I'm I don't want to go from big/small to small/small. Hit both thumb shifters at the same time about the same number of clicks and I can go from big/small to small/middle for a slightly easier gear.
#109
I'm doing it wrong.
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I'm interested in this group for a steel frame I'm thinking about getting that won't go well with dI2's wires. Not that I'm interested enough to be an early adopter, but just keeping an eye on it.
#110
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Sure you do, but gearing is still arranged to allow two ranges of gears one on the big ring, one on the small. Double shifts occur when moving between the ranges, which is much less frequent than shifts within the ranges. Most shifts are within those ranges, not between them. If I am wrong about that, just say so.
Up here, lots of rollers that you can only charge half way up with momentum from a previous roller. So you're in your 50x23 or 50x25 at a reasonable cadence, and want one more gear stepping down you'd double shift (and Campag or Di2 IIRC multishift in back) to say a 34x16 or a 34x17. Something I do many times on a daily basis.
The alternative without either double shifting (or multishifting)..is either grinding in a sub-optimal gearing/cadence, or needing to do 1 left hand shift and 5 right hand shifts which takes a good bit longer.
#111
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Following the marketing blitz with interest.
Shifting front and rear more or less together is doable according to one first-ride reviewer, you press both paddles to shift the front then let off one paddle which shifts the rear.
One comment many first-ride reviewers make is that the shift speed feels slower than di2 or mechanical. I keep waiting for a reviewer to point out what seems like the obvious reason for this. Since pressing both paddles at once shifts the front, a very fast response speed to pressing a single paddle would lead to unintentional shifts if you mean to press both paddles at once but instead press one very slightly before the other.
In any case I hope the system turns out to be great, options and innovation are always good.
Shifting front and rear more or less together is doable according to one first-ride reviewer, you press both paddles to shift the front then let off one paddle which shifts the rear.
One comment many first-ride reviewers make is that the shift speed feels slower than di2 or mechanical. I keep waiting for a reviewer to point out what seems like the obvious reason for this. Since pressing both paddles at once shifts the front, a very fast response speed to pressing a single paddle would lead to unintentional shifts if you mean to press both paddles at once but instead press one very slightly before the other.
In any case I hope the system turns out to be great, options and innovation are always good.
#112
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Sure you do, but gearing is still arranged to allow two ranges of gears one on the big ring, one on the small. Double shifts occur when moving between the ranges, which is much less frequent than shifts within the ranges. Most shifts are within those ranges, not between them. If I am wrong about that, just say so.
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#113
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Relatively, yeah it does. My point is this. So pretend you're a mentoring a newbie. Do you teach him to go back and forth through every gear ratio or to stay on one ring as long as practical? Stay on one ring? Okay, why? Because it is more desirable to do so. Then when he has to, you teach him to make the double shift to get to the other ring. Okay, so can you live with single shifts that get you where you need to be are more desirable instead of double shifts are undesirable? That works just as well for me.
#114
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Depends on where and how you ride.
Up here, lots of rollers that you can only charge half way up with momentum from a previous roller. So you're in your 50x23 or 50x25 at a reasonable cadence, and want one more gear stepping down you'd double shift (and Campag or Di2 IIRC multishift in back) to say a 34x16 or a 34x17. Something I do many times on a daily basis.
The alternative without either double shifting (or multishifting)..is either grinding in a sub-optimal gearing/cadence, or needing to do 1 left hand shift and 5 right hand shifts which takes a good bit longer.
Up here, lots of rollers that you can only charge half way up with momentum from a previous roller. So you're in your 50x23 or 50x25 at a reasonable cadence, and want one more gear stepping down you'd double shift (and Campag or Di2 IIRC multishift in back) to say a 34x16 or a 34x17. Something I do many times on a daily basis.
The alternative without either double shifting (or multishifting)..is either grinding in a sub-optimal gearing/cadence, or needing to do 1 left hand shift and 5 right hand shifts which takes a good bit longer.
#115
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double tap sti ergopower im amused how how much one can exaggerate the simple act of shifting a gear.
"sram/campy/shimano/suntour/sachs is more intuitive to me i can shift without thinking or rewiring my brain".......
theres at most 2 control points per hand and a chain that can go either up, or down. it aint rocket science. they all work the same.
"sram/campy/shimano/suntour/sachs is more intuitive to me i can shift without thinking or rewiring my brain".......
theres at most 2 control points per hand and a chain that can go either up, or down. it aint rocket science. they all work the same.
#116
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double tap sti ergopower im amused how how much one can exaggerate the simple act of shifting a gear.
"sram/campy/shimano/suntour/sachs is more intuitive to me i can shift without thinking or rewiring my brain".......
theres at most 2 control points per hand and a chain that can go either up, or down. it aint rocket science. they all work the same.
"sram/campy/shimano/suntour/sachs is more intuitive to me i can shift without thinking or rewiring my brain".......
theres at most 2 control points per hand and a chain that can go either up, or down. it aint rocket science. they all work the same.
Both Di2, and STI are not intuitive for new users. The same lever gives you an easier gear when it's on the left, and harder gear when it's on the right. There's no reason for that in a electronic group where you can program the buttons to do what you want.
SRAM got that, and made the first group that, out of the box, really does not work in the same way as a mechanical group.
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You could hit a tree and die.
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#117
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Relatively, yeah it does. My point is this. So pretend you're a mentoring a newbie. Do you teach him to go back and forth through every gear ratio or to stay on one ring as long as practical? Stay on one ring? Okay, why? Because it is more desirable to do so. Then when he has to, you teach him to make the double shift to get to the other ring. Okay, so can you live with single shifts that get you where you need to be are more desirable instead of double shifts are undesirable? That works just as well for me.
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#118
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Ive owned and used shifters on DT, bar-ends, twist, trigger, those funky XTR dual-control pods, ergopower, sti, etc. All different in implementation, but at the end of the day its not exactly like conducting an orchestra while controlling air traffic.
It feels like bicyclists sometime unecessarily embellish the complication of what is, in spirit, one of the most elegantly simple machine designed by man.
Or maybe my bar is set too high?
#119
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Uh, not really. But it's okay. I get it that folks take pride in their double shifting prowess. Carry on.
#120
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Meh. Its not mentally taxing to commit to memory how 2 levers maps to binary derailleurs.
Ive owned and used shifters on DT, bar-ends, twist, trigger, those funky XTR dual-control pods, ergopower, sti, etc. All different in implementation, but at the end of the day its not exactly like conducting an orchestra while controlling air traffic.
It feels like bicyclists sometime unecessarily embellish the complication of what is, in spirit, one of the most elegantly simple machine designed by man.
Or maybe my bar is set too high?
Ive owned and used shifters on DT, bar-ends, twist, trigger, those funky XTR dual-control pods, ergopower, sti, etc. All different in implementation, but at the end of the day its not exactly like conducting an orchestra while controlling air traffic.
It feels like bicyclists sometime unecessarily embellish the complication of what is, in spirit, one of the most elegantly simple machine designed by man.
Or maybe my bar is set too high?
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
#123
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Wireless ftw! Definitely will get a wireless group for the next bike, probably going to wait until a few generations later so they can work out all the bugs.
#124
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It's interesting how much shifting motions just become muscle memory. I shift without consciously thinking about which finger to move. And steering is the same way. Bikes have a learning curve.
For the rear derailleur, my Campagnolo 10 speed shifters have a thumb button to go smaller cog, and one paddle to go bigger cog. So when I first rode my Di2 bike, I was waving my thumb in the air next to the shifter for a smaller cog, or pressing the wider bottom shifter paddle for a larger cog shift. Neither was correct, of course.
After a couple of rides, it was all automatic. And now I can switch between bikes and pretty much instantly convert to that bike's methods.
We'll have to see user reports of the Sram shifters in use. This makes sense, I wonder how many milliseconds it waits on a back shift to see if the front is going to be pressed too. Or I suppose it could start shifting the rear immediately, then shift back to the original cog if the front gets shifted instead. It probably wouldn't be noticeable to the rider.
For the rear derailleur, my Campagnolo 10 speed shifters have a thumb button to go smaller cog, and one paddle to go bigger cog. So when I first rode my Di2 bike, I was waving my thumb in the air next to the shifter for a smaller cog, or pressing the wider bottom shifter paddle for a larger cog shift. Neither was correct, of course.
After a couple of rides, it was all automatic. And now I can switch between bikes and pretty much instantly convert to that bike's methods.
Following the marketing blitz with interest.
Shifting front and rear more or less together is doable according to one first-ride reviewer, you press both paddles to shift the front then let off one paddle which shifts the rear.
One comment many first-ride reviewers make is that the shift speed feels slower than di2 or mechanical. I keep waiting for a reviewer to point out what seems like the obvious reason for this. Since pressing both paddles at once shifts the front, a very fast response speed to pressing a single paddle would lead to unintentional shifts if you mean to press both paddles at once but instead press one very slightly before the other.
In any case I hope the system turns out to be great, options and innovation are always good.
Shifting front and rear more or less together is doable according to one first-ride reviewer, you press both paddles to shift the front then let off one paddle which shifts the rear.
One comment many first-ride reviewers make is that the shift speed feels slower than di2 or mechanical. I keep waiting for a reviewer to point out what seems like the obvious reason for this. Since pressing both paddles at once shifts the front, a very fast response speed to pressing a single paddle would lead to unintentional shifts if you mean to press both paddles at once but instead press one very slightly before the other.
In any case I hope the system turns out to be great, options and innovation are always good.
#125
Senior Member
GCN test ride video seems to show great usability.
I'm looking forward to it.
Video: GCN rides the new SRAM Red eTap
I'm looking forward to it.
Video: GCN rides the new SRAM Red eTap