New Wheels: Aero or standard
09-01-15, 11:17 AM
#126
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I was talking Argent, sorry. They are a 30mm tall U-shape, so yes, aero, if not the fastest toroid shape (where widest part of rim is fairing, not brake track).
I like the Argents for my weight; wide, alu brake track...good stuff for big guys who ride in the wet! At your weight, I'd probably trade off width for depth, though, and worry less about carbon braking issues.
I like the Argents for my weight; wide, alu brake track...good stuff for big guys who ride in the wet! At your weight, I'd probably trade off width for depth, though, and worry less about carbon braking issues.
Not to belabor it, but, with my weight and wants/needs, do you still think the Argent is best for me?
09-01-15, 11:42 AM
#127
wears long socks
If the chaadster has lead you to believe I am wrong about "aero wheelsets" providing "little" gain in speed, here is a quote from MIT grad Mark Cote who just so happens to have worked his way up to Specialized Road Marketing Manager since speaking about the subject.
Cote: "Most people don't realize that a nonaero helmet creates four times the drag of a nonaero wheelset. So you can spend two thousand dollars on a wheelset, or spend two hundred on a helmet and be faster. How you put your race number on matters more than having an aero wheel; today, we glued on our numbers to get them to fit flatter. Then there's water bottle placement: On a round-tubed frame, having a bottle on your seat tube is more aerodynamic than not having one at all, and it's much more aero than putting it on the down tube. And wearing gloves in a time trial will slow you down more than using a nonaero front wheel."
His studies were conducted on MIT's dime and he had free access to their wind tunnel.
Just some food for thought.
09-01-15, 11:50 AM
#128
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Why wouldn't you go aero? You've got the budget for it, and there are excellent, lightweight options in versatile 40mm deep rim profiles, wheels which compare favorably, and even better in some regards, to Mavic wheels like the Cosmic Carbone 40, notably American Classic's Carbon 40 Clincher, which arguably has better hubs, is a pinch lighter, and costs almost half of Mavic's MSRP.
Don't get me wrong; I'm one who proudly likes Mavic wheels, and ride 2 sets myself, but I do think they've become, in some ways, very particular, by which I mean they make best sense or deliver max value, when meeting very specific user criteria. For example, if someone really wanted a murdered-out wheelset with carbon spokes, well I suppose the Ksyrium R-Sys is about as bad assed as those come.
As a counterpoint, if full carbon isn't your thing for whatever reason, what's to suggest Ksyrium SLS over, going bactk to American Classic, their Argent wheelset? Yeah, you trade off about 20gm (!) for a deeper, wider, tubeless specific rim, and for less!
And yes, I'm an AC fan, just smitten with a pair of Argents myself!
Don't get me wrong; I'm one who proudly likes Mavic wheels, and ride 2 sets myself, but I do think they've become, in some ways, very particular, by which I mean they make best sense or deliver max value, when meeting very specific user criteria. For example, if someone really wanted a murdered-out wheelset with carbon spokes, well I suppose the Ksyrium R-Sys is about as bad assed as those come.
As a counterpoint, if full carbon isn't your thing for whatever reason, what's to suggest Ksyrium SLS over, going bactk to American Classic, their Argent wheelset? Yeah, you trade off about 20gm (!) for a deeper, wider, tubeless specific rim, and for less!
And yes, I'm an AC fan, just smitten with a pair of Argents myself!
Last edited by dalava; 09-01-15 at 12:00 PM.
09-01-15, 12:12 PM
#129
Senior Member
Most of my daily riding is done in stop 'n go conditions, so light (therefore non-aero) rims are optimal. If I am doing sustained high-speed runs in the country, then aero is worthwhile.
Light hoops are a revelation. My old steel bikes with low-profile alu tubulars feel more responsive and high performance than my most expensive and lightest carbon bikes with aero clinchers.
Light hoops are a revelation. My old steel bikes with low-profile alu tubulars feel more responsive and high performance than my most expensive and lightest carbon bikes with aero clinchers.
09-01-15, 12:37 PM
#130
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In another thread, there was a link to results of a computer simulation that compared lightweight to aero wheels on various tri courses around the country. The results that even on courses with climbing, aero wheels were faster in most siruarions. I have heard that even at 12 mph, aero wheels are faster.
09-01-15, 12:52 PM
#131
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No, I don't, that's what I was saying about trading off width for depth... You're light enough that the extra volume and contact patch from a wide rim mounted tire is probably not important, and probably the slightly less powerful braking of carbon is less of an issue too, thanks to your light weight. Given those things, together with the fact you're looking for speed, I'd say skip the Argent in favor of a deeper rim profile. That could be the AC Carbon 40 or something else; I don't know the carbon market well enough to make any really good reccos, unfortunately.
09-01-15, 01:06 PM
#132
wears long socks
That you think these things are "not important" speaks more to the limits of your riding interests and abilities than to the benefits of wider tires.
Wider is faster! | Schwalbe North America
https://www.competitivecyclist.com/learn/25-vs-23
See what I did there?
Last edited by 69chevy; 09-01-15 at 01:23 PM.
09-01-15, 01:29 PM
#133
Senior Member
Not to belabor it, but...
If the chaadster has lead you to believe I am wrong about "aero wheelsets" providing "little" gain in speed, here is a quote from MIT grad Mark Cote who just so happens to have worked his way up to Specialized Road Marketing Manager since speaking about the subject.
If the chaadster has lead you to believe I am wrong about "aero wheelsets" providing "little" gain in speed, here is a quote from MIT grad Mark Cote who just so happens to have worked his way up to Specialized Road Marketing Manager since speaking about the subject.
09-01-15, 01:32 PM
#134
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Did u look at the November Rail 34s I linked earlier? 25mm width, sub 1500 grams, 34mm aero depth carbon. The seem like a pretty decent compromise.
09-01-15, 02:04 PM
#135
wears long socks
I choose not to believe that his data became inaccurate AFTER he began working for a company that generates their revenue from selling "faster" equipment to enthusiasts who get no measurable benefit from the thousands of dollars they spend.
09-01-15, 02:23 PM
#136
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I choose to rely on the studies of an extremely bright engineer who was surrounded by extremely bright engineers and was working to improve the performance of his school's cycling team.
I choose not to believe that his data became inaccurate AFTER he began working for a company that generates their revenue from selling "faster" equipment to enthusiasts who get no measurable benefit from the thousands of dollars they spend.
I choose not to believe that his data became inaccurate AFTER he began working for a company that generates their revenue from selling "faster" equipment to enthusiasts who get no measurable benefit from the thousands of dollars they spend.
Specialized now has its own private wind tunnel. I've been to it, and it was designed to address some of the problems with the old MIT wind tunnel. Recently, Specialized donated wind tunnel time to work with a friend of mine who will soon make an attempt on a world record. This rider isn't sponsored by Specialized and doesn't ride a Specialized bike -- it's possible that the rider may be using a Specialized helmet but if so, the rider purchased the helmet from a bike shop. Specialized doesn't get anything for that. Mark was kind enough to share data with me to validate some field measurement I had done. Specialized didn't get anything from me for that. One of my buddies was in the Specialized wind tunnel on Friday, testing a non-Specialized bike. Specialized didn't get anything for that.
09-01-15, 02:24 PM
#137
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I choose to rely on the studies of an extremely bright engineer who was surrounded by extremely bright engineers and was working to improve the performance of his school's cycling team.
I choose not to believe that his data became inaccurate AFTER he began working for a company that generates their revenue from selling "faster" equipment to enthusiasts who get no measurable benefit from the thousands of dollars they spend.
I choose not to believe that his data became inaccurate AFTER he began working for a company that generates their revenue from selling "faster" equipment to enthusiasts who get no measurable benefit from the thousands of dollars they spend.
I don't know if you're deliberately misrepresenting what I wrote, or didn't understand it, but it wasn't the data itself that was inaccurate, it was the the combination of an inappropriate protocol, and misrepresentation of the conclusions by the author of an article for the popular press that make the quoted statements unreliable.
But if you want to rely on a quote that the speaker himself has disavowed, knock yourself out.
09-01-15, 02:26 PM
#138
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I choose to rely on the studies of an extremely bright engineer who was surrounded by extremely bright engineers and was working to improve the performance of his school's cycling team.
I choose not to believe that his data became inaccurate AFTER he began working for a company that generates their revenue from selling "faster" equipment to enthusiasts who get no measurable benefit from the thousands of dollars they spend.
I choose not to believe that his data became inaccurate AFTER he began working for a company that generates their revenue from selling "faster" equipment to enthusiasts who get no measurable benefit from the thousands of dollars they spend.
09-01-15, 02:27 PM
#139
Senior Member
I've been staying out of this thread but ...
Specialized now has its own private wind tunnel. I've been to it, and it was designed to address some of the problems with the old MIT wind tunnel. Recently, Specialized donated wind tunnel time to work with a friend of mine who will soon make an attempt on a world record. This rider isn't sponsored by Specialized and doesn't ride a Specialized bike -- it's possible that the rider may be using a Specialized helmet but if so, the rider purchased the helmet from a bike shop. Specialized doesn't get anything for that. Mark was kind enough to share data with me to validate some field measurement I had done. Specialized didn't get anything from me for that. One of my buddies was in the Specialized wind tunnel on Friday, testing a non-Specialized bike. Specialized didn't get anything for that.
Specialized now has its own private wind tunnel. I've been to it, and it was designed to address some of the problems with the old MIT wind tunnel. Recently, Specialized donated wind tunnel time to work with a friend of mine who will soon make an attempt on a world record. This rider isn't sponsored by Specialized and doesn't ride a Specialized bike -- it's possible that the rider may be using a Specialized helmet but if so, the rider purchased the helmet from a bike shop. Specialized doesn't get anything for that. Mark was kind enough to share data with me to validate some field measurement I had done. Specialized didn't get anything from me for that. One of my buddies was in the Specialized wind tunnel on Friday, testing a non-Specialized bike. Specialized didn't get anything for that.
09-01-15, 02:32 PM
#140
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I'd like to introduce a new concept to the discourse: radiation exposure.
09-01-15, 02:37 PM
#141
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Perhaps, but at this level I'm not sure the value to Specialized is terribly high. Mark and Chris have always seemed like straight-up guys to me. They told me when they couldn't tell me something (like, they don't share specific numbers for specific riders) but they're pretty open about sharing general lessons learned. Almost every aerodynamicist I've talked to is happy (eager) to tell you what they've learned, and how much they still don't know. They also tell you what they thought they knew that they now know was wrong. That stuff is really interesting.
09-01-15, 02:38 PM
#142
wears long socks
I've been staying out of this thread but ...
Specialized now has its own private wind tunnel. I've been to it, and it was designed to address some of the problems with the old MIT wind tunnel. Recently, Specialized donated wind tunnel time to work with a friend of mine who will soon make an attempt on a world record. This rider isn't sponsored by Specialized and doesn't ride a Specialized bike -- it's possible that the rider may be using a Specialized helmet but if so, the rider purchased the helmet from a bike shop. Specialized doesn't get anything for that. Mark was kind enough to share data with me to validate some field measurement I had done. Specialized didn't get anything from me for that. One of my buddies was in the Specialized wind tunnel on Friday, testing a non-Specialized bike. Specialized didn't get anything for that.
Specialized now has its own private wind tunnel. I've been to it, and it was designed to address some of the problems with the old MIT wind tunnel. Recently, Specialized donated wind tunnel time to work with a friend of mine who will soon make an attempt on a world record. This rider isn't sponsored by Specialized and doesn't ride a Specialized bike -- it's possible that the rider may be using a Specialized helmet but if so, the rider purchased the helmet from a bike shop. Specialized doesn't get anything for that. Mark was kind enough to share data with me to validate some field measurement I had done. Specialized didn't get anything from me for that. One of my buddies was in the Specialized wind tunnel on Friday, testing a non-Specialized bike. Specialized didn't get anything for that.
I think Specialized is a great brand who continues to push boundaries and offers incredible products.
My only issue is that belligerent gear junkies try to convince enthusiast cyclists that you can put raw speed on a credit card.
If I personally want to spend $12.5K on a Venge Vias setup, I will. I would not however try to convince someone else that buying it would lead them to world dominance.
09-01-15, 02:40 PM
#143
wears long socks
09-01-15, 02:41 PM
#144
Senior Member
They told me when they couldn't tell me something (like, they don't share specific numbers for specific riders) but they're pretty open about sharing general lessons learned. Almost every aerodynamicist I've talked to is happy (eager) to tell you what they've learned, and how much they still don't know. They also tell you what they thought they knew that they now know was wrong. That stuff is really interesting.
09-01-15, 02:54 PM
#145
wears long socks
His explanation and retraction (his word, not mine), came while he was still a student and not working for any company. Even (especially) bright engineers will admit that they are not born knowing all knowledge, but that it takes education and experience to become proficient in the field.
I don't know if you're deliberately misrepresenting what I wrote, or didn't understand it, but it wasn't the data itself that was inaccurate, it was the the combination of an inappropriate protocol, and misrepresentation of the conclusions by the author of an article for the popular press that make the quoted statements unreliable.
But if you want to rely on a quote that the speaker himself has disavowed, knock yourself out.
I don't know if you're deliberately misrepresenting what I wrote, or didn't understand it, but it wasn't the data itself that was inaccurate, it was the the combination of an inappropriate protocol, and misrepresentation of the conclusions by the author of an article for the popular press that make the quoted statements unreliable.
But if you want to rely on a quote that the speaker himself has disavowed, knock yourself out.
Of course I'm trying to prove said point to a brick wall (not you), but what will be will be.
The only reason I even brought up the studies, the impacts, the drama... was to explain a $1300 set of aero wheels won't make an average rider noticeably faster.
09-01-15, 07:26 PM
#146
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I know that my carbon wheels will not cut my 40k time in half. It will, however, allow me to hang in the mix much longer when the pace picks up. The wheels also allow me to descend faster, using less energy. There are times when a rider needs every advantage they can get.
09-01-15, 08:54 PM
#147
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Mavic seems to be stepping up their game lately. I teammate of mine has a set of RSYS and a set of Cosmic Ultimates... WOW what a set of wheels. First the look, they are incredible. Then the weight. The R SYS are 1295g for aluminum clincher and the Cosmics are 1335g for a set of 40mm deep carbon tubulars. They do come in pricey but hey, you get what you pay for. Honestly, in the end, there hasn't been a race I could not contest in my ultra sharp race bike that I haven't been able to contest on my 18 pound rain bike with rusty components. Given that weight, braking and aero are "decent" (not the best), go with what looks best and what you can afford.
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09-01-15, 09:34 PM
#148
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is the benefit of deep section wheels trivial? the difference is measurable, and repeatable. the only thing is the test conditions may very well be different from real life conditions, so that "30 seconds over 40k" may be exaggerated, but the benefit is there non the less. Also, the use of aerodynamics is not unique to the cycling industry.
for us mere mortals, who do not ride very fast, and do not race, the differences that super light wheels, or super aero wheels make dont really mean anything. we buy it cause it looks cool, and it makes us feel good. I dont remember who said it first, but go with what you think looks best, if you've got the money.
for us mere mortals, who do not ride very fast, and do not race, the differences that super light wheels, or super aero wheels make dont really mean anything. we buy it cause it looks cool, and it makes us feel good. I dont remember who said it first, but go with what you think looks best, if you've got the money.
09-02-15, 06:40 AM
#149
Senior Member
For us mere mortals, who do not ride very fast, and do not race, the differences that super light wheels, or super aero wheels make don't really mean anything. We buy it cause it looks cool, and it makes us feel good. I don't remember who said it first, but go with what you think looks best, if you've got the money.
09-02-15, 02:39 PM
#150
Recusant Iconoclast
Well said, I'm set to buy some carbon clinchers because I really like the way they ride and the way they look. I recently had a demo set on my bike and unquestionably found myself more motivated to get out there and ride plus once out there felt I had something to prove so just having them on the bike made me push harder and ride more, that alone makes the purchase worth the expense for me. Are they practical for someone like me, probably not, but who cares?