Radish_legs

I have a friend who spends most of his time on the trainer. He does trainerroad and sufferfest and stuff like that. He's a strava friend so I get to see his workouts and how much power, etc. We're about the same weight. And his FTP is maybe 260. And strava estimates my FTP as 230 (I have a power meter, but I don't do intervals on the trainer).

So he wanted to go on a group ride with me. I told him I was going to be doing a new ride with some guys, never done the ride before. Some fairly significant hills.

I knew it was trouble when he fell behind on the first small hill. As the hills progressed, he was doing worse and worse. On a 60 mile ride, he finally lost the group at about the 40 mile mark and had to sag wagon it back home. I suffered as well, and fell behind a little, and had to skip one turnoff for a out-and-back hill. But I was doing 100x better than him. I would catch back up to the group and I was able to ride home with the group.

I don't get why I performed better than him, when he ought to be have been doing just as well as me based on FTP criteria. I'm trying to understand what happened from a physiological perspective. Maybe he doesn't hit high-enough watts on the trainer to simulate tough hills? I can easily be doing over 400 watts while going up a hill. Or it's hard to develop enough anaerobic reserve (W') when you are doing 60 and 90 minute trainer sessions?

therhodeo

Its possible he was at a different point in his workout schedule and was less fresh. I'm a mostly trainer guy and there was been some times I've went to group rides after 2 hard days and couldn't hang on only to go back in a week or 2 after a few days of less intensity and was one of the stronger ones on the ride.

69chevy

He may just lack real world hill climbing experience.

If he ran too tall of a gear he may have burned his legs. If he ran too small of a gear he may have lost his breath. Maybe he overheated?

Xherion

FTP is just a number. In isolation, it means very little. The real world isn't a steady state FTP pace. A real ride requires a lot of surging of power, coasting down hills, and tempo pace on flats.

mvnsnd

OP, FTP isn't the full story either. Watts/kg is a better normalization of power.

I also agree that one needs real world hill climbing experience to improve hill climbing.

Seattle Forrest

Possible he did a hard effort recently. Or didn't sleep well. Or had a flu coming on. Any number of "subjective" factors could have wrecked his performance temporarily.

Could be he isn't great at pacing himself. Especially if he mostly rides on a trainer, it doesn't force you to the way riding outdoors does/can.

How do your weights compare?

Radish_legs

He weighs the same or less, I believe. I'm 190. He's shorter and doesn't look fatter.

Nachoman

Not addressing the physiological aspect of your questions, but maybe right around the point he was dropped, he just said screw it and decided to take it down a notch and ride at a casual pace. That's what I might do, if one of my friends dropped me two-thirds of the way through a 60 mile ride.

cderalow

need to look at both FTP/kg and FTP/duration.

I might be able to hold 200W according to trainerroad for an hour... but for 3 hours I can only manage 60% of that.

If he's not into riding long duration trainer rides... a long duration outdoor ride can be killer.

Radish_legs

He was falling off the back on the first hill. It wasn't fatigue at that point. And every hill after that it got worse and worse. The group regrouped several times. So he was able to get back in. The dilemma I found myself in was that 1) I was having to work hard to stay w/ the group and 2) I wasn't familiar with the route, so I had an incentive to stay w/ the group for that reason (as did he). I guess I could have gone back and told him "screw this, let's just ride back together." Or I could just keep riding and hope he was fine. And would regroup. I chose the latter. This wasn't a regular training partner. Our first ride together which he invited himself on. He apologized to me after the ride. I did try to look after him when I got back. I didn't have his cell but was able to find his wife's cell from a friend. And by that time he had sagged. And as it was, one of the other club members had gone back to look for him and escort him back. But he had called the sag wagon at that point. It was a tough situation. Not sure I handled it right.

kini62

Nice of you to join the forum Mr. Froome.

SlowerGuy

Just another data point to check:
Is 260W a "virtual" FTP or measured with some reasonably accuracy?

gsa103

Is his bike properly tuned up? I only ask because I ride with a ride who had wheel bearings which were shot and didn't roll. On a hill climb ride, he would destroy me, but on longer group rides he would get thoroughly dropped. I gave him my spare wheels which actually rolled, and suddenly he was out-riding me.

Alternatively, its also about hill climbing technique. For a long climb you need to know how to find an effort level that you can just grind out.

Athens80

This vital information is missing. Is this FTP from a power meter or from an app's estimate?

greenlight149

is hes 260 watts based on a power meter, or strava estimation?

im also a little confused by your power numbers, if your ftp is 230, and you can "easily" do over 400 watts up climbs, thats like 180% of your ftp. iono about the rest of the guys on the forum, but i dont climb at 180% ftp, and even if i did, i wouldnt last more than a minute or two.

Radish_legs

400 watts for a minute. No biggie.

Radish_legs

Real watts. Not estimated.

kingfishr

If they're real watts then why wouldn't you compare the actual strava ride with the true power data? That will tell you the entire story. Since there are so many variables and information that you haven't provided let me take a shot:

He has no power meter on the bike, and the ftp on the indoor training on Strava is not accurate since he is not using a trainer with reliable calibration. His actual FTP is 220, and to impress you and your friends he took long turns at the front and burned himself out. Without a power meter and maybe the wrong gearing he went out too hard and was cooked by the time he hit the hills...

chaadster

At my weight, I almost need to make 400w, or else I'm not going up a hill! A strong rider, perhaps, a Froome, definitely not. Probably not even an overweight Froome!

greenlight149

what if the climb is longer than one minute lol

chaadster

Uh, dial it back to a more sustainable output. What do you do? Get off and walk?

Radish_legs

1. He has no PM on his bike for the hill ride.
2. He does have a PM associated with his trainer rides. Good point, it might be inaccurate. I have no idea what kind of trainer.
3. He took no turns on the front, never get near the front.
4. We didn't go hard before the hills. If he was cooked before the hills he was woefully unfit.
5. The hardest hills were tough. Like 7% grade. I looked at one of the hills on strava with my PM. It was about 250 watts over 5 minutes for me. 3.4% avg grade over 1 mile. 180 ft elevation gain. Another one was 4 minutes, 283w avg. 8-9 hills like this.

therhodeo

Where are you? West Texas? Nebraska? Kansas?

mvnsnd

Its very hard to hill train on a trainer in my opinion. Get him out more doing more hills next season. He'll improve quickly.

Radish_legs

Dallas. It's doing the each hill twice, not 8 separate hills.