My Chinese carbon fiber ultra-light build
10-20-15, 11:29 AM
#477
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
About the Cervelo small parts. The printing on them is embossing done in mold. If they can get essentially authentic frame molds, they can get the small part injection molds too or at least access to them.
Last edited by rpenmanparker; 10-20-15 at 01:52 PM.
10-20-15, 01:56 PM
#481
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
Yes, of course. I'm just pointing out that one isn't any more difficult to come by than the other. Though if the injection mold for small parts were commissioned by Workswell for these frames, I doubt they would have had Cervelo cut into the steel.
10-20-15, 01:58 PM
#482
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
10-20-15, 02:19 PM
#483
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,114
Bikes: 2006 Raleigh Cadent 2.0, 2016 Trek Emonda ALR 6, 2015 Propel Advanced SL 2, 2000 K2 Zed SE
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Why wouldn't they? They would know there's almost no chance they'd lose an IP case in Chinese courts, which are pretty (in)famous for not noticing similarities between two objects that look essentially identical.
10-20-15, 03:23 PM
#484
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,496
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
3 Posts
But if they were going to go through the trouble of counterfeiting small parts that most people won't notice, why not just throw Cervelo paint job on the frame?
10-20-15, 03:23 PM
#485
INSERT_TITLE_HERE
Those plugs are probably exactly as shady as your frame, and have an equally uncertain production origin.
Face it, unless WW provides you with and admission and pictures to back it up that they are producing the real cervelo frames from the same molds as your bike, there's no way in hell you can justify drawing that conclusion.
10-20-15, 03:37 PM
#486
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,114
Bikes: 2006 Raleigh Cadent 2.0, 2016 Trek Emonda ALR 6, 2015 Propel Advanced SL 2, 2000 K2 Zed SE
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Edit: None of this would imply that the frame is a deathtrap like some of the "replicas" turn out to be. It is most likely a reasonably small risk to ride, but it would be a way to stand out in a market that's getting more crowded as time goes by...
10-20-15, 04:12 PM
#487
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,496
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
3 Posts
Because they are savvy and understand what most buyers actually want - something that's cheap because it got snuck through rather than a bike that sits in a bicycle version of the uncanny valley because the paint job never quite matches exactly. Small parts with a logo would add plausibility that it is actually a Cervelo. They don't really want anyone other than the buyer to notice, but they want the buyer to notice. This hypothetical situation would hypothetically generate a lot of hypothetical word-of-mouth hypothetical advertising.
Edit: None of this would imply that the frame is a deathtrap like some of the "replicas" turn out to be. It is most likely a reasonably small risk to ride, but it would be a way to stand out in a market that's getting more crowded as time goes by...
Edit: None of this would imply that the frame is a deathtrap like some of the "replicas" turn out to be. It is most likely a reasonably small risk to ride, but it would be a way to stand out in a market that's getting more crowded as time goes by...
2. I hit some more twisty decents today (only topped out at 34mph today) and felt perfectly comfortable. Precision handling and no wobbles. Of course the WW bike does have carbon cups integrated into the head tube and fork with integrated crown race so no glued in aluminum cups like knock off frames in some of the recent scare tactic articles
10-20-15, 04:17 PM
#488
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
Wait, wait, wait. So you think it's perfectly reasonable that you're getting a grey market Cervelo frame, but that there must not exist a grey market for cervelo plugs?
Those plugs are probably exactly as shady as your frame, and have an equally uncertain production origin.
Face it, unless WW provides you with and admission and pictures to back it up that they are producing the real cervelo frames from the same molds as your bike, there's no way in hell you can justify drawing that conclusion.
Those plugs are probably exactly as shady as your frame, and have an equally uncertain production origin.
Face it, unless WW provides you with and admission and pictures to back it up that they are producing the real cervelo frames from the same molds as your bike, there's no way in hell you can justify drawing that conclusion.
10-21-15, 08:48 AM
#489
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 866
Bikes: 2014 Specialized Secteur Sport
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
IS ti not possible that the pieces marked as Cervelo are just real Cervelo parts they purchased to help guarantee fit and finish of the final product?
10-21-15, 08:59 AM
#490
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
In an classic brainstorming session that idea would get equal treatment to all others during the first round. It is not outrageous, but it is a bit less likely than many other ideas about this. IMO
10-21-15, 09:12 AM
#492
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,496
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
3 Posts
10-21-15, 09:20 AM
#493
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 866
Bikes: 2014 Specialized Secteur Sport
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
So over on the WW forum we found someone who owns both a Workswell and genuine R3 to give us an honest comparision:
Yeah, I own a 2012 R3 Team. I bought the Workswell to be a commuter bike and I now ride it all the time and the R3 sits in the basement.
Here's why:
- The Workswell is a copy of the newer generation of Cervelo R series frames - Internal cable routing and the new more aero tubing. My 2012 R3 has external cabling and squarish tubes
- My Cervelo has Ultegra 6700 and the Workswell is 6800. Forget about the improvement of 11 speed, 6800 shifts much better. Especially the front derailleur
- My R3 is a 56cm and the Workswell is a 54cm. The 54 is the right size for me. Why did I get a 56cm R3? I told my Cervelo bike fitter that I had experienced a sore back in the past. He went super conservative and said a more upright position on a 56 would be better for my back. Well, I've long since slammed the 56 with no sore back and the saddle is so low it looks stupid. The Workswell 54 has a better look for my fit and is a little more responsive.
The Cervelo wins here
- Stiffness. I believe the Cervelo is stiffer. I've not been able to tell the difference riding but if I stand next to the bike, crank on the front brake, and step hard on the NDS pedal there is a little more flex with the Workswell.
- Carbon layup. It's gotta be better, right? Unlike the Workswell copy the new Cervelos have a carbon cylindrical shell for the bottom bracket and internal bulkheads.
Summary
Overall the Cervelo is a better frame. For me the sizing and group set have made me shelve it in favor of the Workswell. When you factor in the price the Workswell is just an awesome bike.\
The other thing I keep coming back to is the fact that Workswell provides Cervelo branded plugs and cable stops for the frame. This means they must have a box with hundreds or thousands of those official Cervelo parts. How does a company come across those unless they have an official relationship or had an official relationship at one point? I would think you would at least have to have a dealer relationship with Cervelo to purchase those in bulk
Yeah, I own a 2012 R3 Team. I bought the Workswell to be a commuter bike and I now ride it all the time and the R3 sits in the basement.
Here's why:
- The Workswell is a copy of the newer generation of Cervelo R series frames - Internal cable routing and the new more aero tubing. My 2012 R3 has external cabling and squarish tubes
- My Cervelo has Ultegra 6700 and the Workswell is 6800. Forget about the improvement of 11 speed, 6800 shifts much better. Especially the front derailleur
- My R3 is a 56cm and the Workswell is a 54cm. The 54 is the right size for me. Why did I get a 56cm R3? I told my Cervelo bike fitter that I had experienced a sore back in the past. He went super conservative and said a more upright position on a 56 would be better for my back. Well, I've long since slammed the 56 with no sore back and the saddle is so low it looks stupid. The Workswell 54 has a better look for my fit and is a little more responsive.
The Cervelo wins here
- Stiffness. I believe the Cervelo is stiffer. I've not been able to tell the difference riding but if I stand next to the bike, crank on the front brake, and step hard on the NDS pedal there is a little more flex with the Workswell.
- Carbon layup. It's gotta be better, right? Unlike the Workswell copy the new Cervelos have a carbon cylindrical shell for the bottom bracket and internal bulkheads.
Summary
Overall the Cervelo is a better frame. For me the sizing and group set have made me shelve it in favor of the Workswell. When you factor in the price the Workswell is just an awesome bike.\
The other thing I keep coming back to is the fact that Workswell provides Cervelo branded plugs and cable stops for the frame. This means they must have a box with hundreds or thousands of those official Cervelo parts. How does a company come across those unless they have an official relationship or had an official relationship at one point? I would think you would at least have to have a dealer relationship with Cervelo to purchase those in bulk
10-21-15, 09:28 AM
#494
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
10-21-15, 09:33 AM
#495
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
Hongfu FM-066/Chinese open mould frame thread - Weight Weenies
This is the first page. Go to near the end for references to Workswell.
This is the first page. Go to near the end for references to Workswell.
10-29-15, 12:05 AM
#496
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 612
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Hongfu FM-066/Chinese open mould frame thread - Weight Weenies
This is the first page. Go to near the end for references to Workswell.
This is the first page. Go to near the end for references to Workswell.
$529 delivered with a simple, but custom paint job/colors. I wanted a light blue bike with inside of fork/chainstais/seatstays in red.
I tried to quote a paint job here in US, got quoted $650 for the same paint scheme
10-29-15, 12:08 PM
#497
Senior Member
I will claim ignorance on this, but how expensive or hard is it really to test that a frame won't break if it is stressed? Hard to equate this to the highly computerized, electronic, and sophisticated automobiles of today which supposedly on average are made with approximately 30,000 parts.
China has a lot of expertise on carbon composites. This is undeniable. But they also have a rather rickety legal system and a rather shady tradition of doing business. This undeniably enhances the risks involved with buying from them. Even a US company buying from Chinese OEMs mitigates this risk, as there is a quality control buffer between the OEM and the consumer.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
10-29-15, 01:04 PM
#498
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
Understand it's not about design. Anyone can design something that doesn't break. It's about build quality and consistency. Name brand recognition cuts both ways. If no-name china company has a problem with their frames breaking, they quietly change the frame, change their ebay name, and start selling again. If Trek has a problem with frames breaking, it becomes news and they issue a recall so nobody further is hurt.
China has a lot of expertise on carbon composites. This is undeniable. But they also have a rather rickety legal system and a rather shady tradition of doing business. This undeniably enhances the risks involved with buying from them. Even a US company buying from Chinese OEMs mitigates this risk, as there is a quality control buffer between the OEM and the consumer.
China has a lot of expertise on carbon composites. This is undeniable. But they also have a rather rickety legal system and a rather shady tradition of doing business. This undeniably enhances the risks involved with buying from them. Even a US company buying from Chinese OEMs mitigates this risk, as there is a quality control buffer between the OEM and the consumer.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
HazeT
Road Cycling
49
09-21-15 11:38 AM
