Steel versus Carbon - Total Weight
10-17-15, 07:15 AM
#26
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I hear you. If a lighter bike gives you a great ride/feel, then by all means get a lighter bike.
My point about body weight - and admittedly it's been 20 years since my last physics class - but for instance on a long challenging climb, your performance is largely going to be a function of the power you produce versus the weight you're lifting to the top of the hill. If I'm really serious about improving my performance, I'm going to get a lot more out of a 20 pound body weight loss than a 1.1 pound weight savings on the bike.
I guess what I'm getting at is that for most middle aged weekend warrior types like me, we'd be a lot better advised to buy based on fit, ride quality, etc., than making weight the primary consideration when buying a bike.
My point about body weight - and admittedly it's been 20 years since my last physics class - but for instance on a long challenging climb, your performance is largely going to be a function of the power you produce versus the weight you're lifting to the top of the hill. If I'm really serious about improving my performance, I'm going to get a lot more out of a 20 pound body weight loss than a 1.1 pound weight savings on the bike.
I guess what I'm getting at is that for most middle aged weekend warrior types like me, we'd be a lot better advised to buy based on fit, ride quality, etc., than making weight the primary consideration when buying a bike.
Clarifying remark: my race bikes (road and CX) are both steel and both are right around 18lbs. A little less for the road bike. So I'm not overly concerned about a weight-related performance hit.
10-17-15, 07:45 AM
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That's exactly right. Your body weight has nothing to do with your bike. Body weight is body weight. Bike weight is bike weight. You shouldn't conflate the two. Both will affect acceleration and speed, but bike weight reduction provides benefits in the feel of the ride that losing body weight simply cannot. When we are talking about bike weight, then the subject has nothing to do with body weight.
10-17-15, 07:49 AM
#29
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Maybe, all things being otherwise equal, a pound or two.
I have two steel bikes and a ti. I ride carbon all the time, because I travel a lot and rent bikes. If you want a higher end bike (say from a shop that will set it up for you when you go rent it, based on an emailed fit chart) it will be carbon. My steel bike has a steel fork, and weighs about 20 lbs (it's a 60). Ti bike is about 16.5-17. High end carbon bikes, the lightest I have rented was a Pinarello, and it came in at about 16. Bear in mind that the weight you have to move down the road is the bike plus you. So let's say the two together in my case (I weigh 210) will run from 227 to 230 pounds. That's a total difference of about 1-1.5%
Weight is generally pretty close, and sometimes heavier, for carbon vs. steel vs. Ti. The same level steel (high end, with carbon fork) compared to the same level carbon, the carbon will be lighter. By something like a half-bottle of water in the cage. Yes, cheaper steel will be "heavy". So will cheaper carbon, by the way.
Then the question is does that matter? Well, things like wheels and tires will have a much larger impact on feel, and things like position (wind resistance) will have a bigger impact on speed than weight. And I can lose a pound overnight, personally. Now, long climbs at over 10% grade -- there, you will feel it.
Yes, a stiffer bike jumps faster when you get on it, and a lighter bike will also give you that sensation to a lesser degree. Stiff + light will really feel jumpy when you hammer it. But the focus on carbon is marketing-driven. Pros ride it, it is advertised a great deal, and comes in product cycles. It's the production profit engine, so you need the latest one to be fast. And you'll need the latest one next year, too.
BTW, there is a pro team in the UK riding steel.
I have two steel bikes and a ti. I ride carbon all the time, because I travel a lot and rent bikes. If you want a higher end bike (say from a shop that will set it up for you when you go rent it, based on an emailed fit chart) it will be carbon. My steel bike has a steel fork, and weighs about 20 lbs (it's a 60). Ti bike is about 16.5-17. High end carbon bikes, the lightest I have rented was a Pinarello, and it came in at about 16. Bear in mind that the weight you have to move down the road is the bike plus you. So let's say the two together in my case (I weigh 210) will run from 227 to 230 pounds. That's a total difference of about 1-1.5%
Weight is generally pretty close, and sometimes heavier, for carbon vs. steel vs. Ti. The same level steel (high end, with carbon fork) compared to the same level carbon, the carbon will be lighter. By something like a half-bottle of water in the cage. Yes, cheaper steel will be "heavy". So will cheaper carbon, by the way.
Then the question is does that matter? Well, things like wheels and tires will have a much larger impact on feel, and things like position (wind resistance) will have a bigger impact on speed than weight. And I can lose a pound overnight, personally. Now, long climbs at over 10% grade -- there, you will feel it.
Yes, a stiffer bike jumps faster when you get on it, and a lighter bike will also give you that sensation to a lesser degree. Stiff + light will really feel jumpy when you hammer it. But the focus on carbon is marketing-driven. Pros ride it, it is advertised a great deal, and comes in product cycles. It's the production profit engine, so you need the latest one to be fast. And you'll need the latest one next year, too.
BTW, there is a pro team in the UK riding steel.
10-17-15, 07:51 AM
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10-17-15, 07:54 AM
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And it includes water bottles, spare tires and whatever you're wearing too. It all adds up to 8-10lbs actually.
so you're really looking at the difference between 225 lbs and 222 lbs. Do the percentage on that and you'll find it's not much.
10-17-15, 07:58 AM
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i find a light bike, regardless of material (but carbon bikes are generally lighter than steel, IME), to be more enjoyable to ride. a light one, with light wheels will shoot out from under you when accelerating regardless of one's weight, unlike a heavier bike. i like that feeling, more so when climbing.
the reason is that on every pedal stroke the bike tries to accelerate forward, away from the cyclist, not much but some, then the cyclist pulls it back a bit, or r e t a r d s (censors
) it if you prefer, before the next pedal stroke. this happens twice per revolution.
the phenomenon is more readily apparent when accelerating a powerful motorcycle, except one doesn't have to pedal.
the reason is that on every pedal stroke the bike tries to accelerate forward, away from the cyclist, not much but some, then the cyclist pulls it back a bit, or r e t a r d s (censors
) it if you prefer, before the next pedal stroke. this happens twice per revolution. the phenomenon is more readily apparent when accelerating a powerful motorcycle, except one doesn't have to pedal.
I have only ridden steel, carbon and aluminum though so can't talk of any other materials.
10-17-15, 07:59 AM
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IMO, not to somebody that weighs 190 lbs. You have to really look at the TOTAL weight of the moving object and unless you send your bike out for rides by itself, that will always include you.
And it includes water bottles, spare tires and whatever you're wearing too. It all adds up to 8-10lbs actually.
so you're really looking at the difference between 225 lbs and 222 lbs. Do the percentage on that and you'll find it's not much.
And it includes water bottles, spare tires and whatever you're wearing too. It all adds up to 8-10lbs actually.
so you're really looking at the difference between 225 lbs and 222 lbs. Do the percentage on that and you'll find it's not much.
10-17-15, 08:00 AM
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Bear in mind they have maintenance, insurance, etc. on these bikes. They live a hard life.
Last edited by adrien; 10-17-15 at 08:05 AM.
10-17-15, 08:02 AM
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I got into cycling via triathlon, then started doing a lot of family bike rides with the kids, then finally started commuting.
So for 99% of the time I'm on a bike, it's all about enjoying my bike euphoria. 99% of the time I ride a steel frame Volagi, which is a comfort/endurance oriented road bike - designed to keep riders happy for long periods of time on the bike.
The other 1% of the time, I'm competing against my previous times in triathlon. I just got a carbon tri bile for this purpose. I am just ever-so-slightly-marginally faster on this bike, but it is vastly less pleasant to ride. Decidedly unpleasant on any kind of harsh surface.
Maybe this isn't such a thread hijack after all. OP: get a bike that suits what you want to do with it. If you have two divergent purposes for bikes, you might wind up with one steel bike and one carbon.
10-17-15, 08:07 AM
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I am not sure what kind of power you are personally generating from your body but I don't think there is a bike of any type on this planet that 'shoots' out from under me no matter how hard I pedal and I believe I am a fairly strong recreational cyclist.
I have only ridden steel, carbon and aluminum though so can't talk of any other materials.
I have only ridden steel, carbon and aluminum though so can't talk of any other materials.
Again based on 20 year old undergraduate physics, I can imagine that a heavy rim, because it's far out from the center of rotation, will have a disproportionate contribution to inertia.
I personally wouldn't know, because both my steel everyday bike and my carbon tri bike have heavy bulletproof rims. This, because of budget, and also I have a tendency to destroy rear wheels (another issue of butt-weight vs. bike weight).
10-17-15, 09:29 AM
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10-17-15, 09:43 AM
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Any time the weight of a bike is brought up I see this false equivalent comparison to losing body weight. Now it's up there at 20lbs. If you can lose 20lbs body weight, do it. It sounds incredibly easy based on the posts I read. But realize that if this weight loss was as easy as is suggested, you wouldn't be 20lbs overweight. So let's set that aside & assume that people weigh what they weigh because their lifestyle dictates their weight & when they shop for a bike it's not a choice of a lighter bike or a lighter body.
IME a lighter bike is much more enjoyable to ride than a heavier bike. Why do non-pros buy lighter bikes if the weight savings doesn't translate into speed increases? Who knows, but really who cares? I assume it's because they can... they can afford it, they can justify it. But why should they have to justify their choices to anyone but themselves? It seems like every cyclist on a 24lb bike needs every cyclist on a sub 17lb bike to justify their reasons for spending their money. Just choose your bike, ride the hell out of it & don't worry about the choices of others.
IME a lighter bike is much more enjoyable to ride than a heavier bike. Why do non-pros buy lighter bikes if the weight savings doesn't translate into speed increases? Who knows, but really who cares? I assume it's because they can... they can afford it, they can justify it. But why should they have to justify their choices to anyone but themselves? It seems like every cyclist on a 24lb bike needs every cyclist on a sub 17lb bike to justify their reasons for spending their money. Just choose your bike, ride the hell out of it & don't worry about the choices of others.
10-17-15, 09:50 AM
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Any time the weight of a bike is brought up I see this false equivalent comparison to losing body weight. Now it's up there at 20lbs. If you can lose 20lbs body weight, do it. It sounds incredibly easy based on the posts I read. But realize that if this weight loss was as easy as is suggested, you wouldn't be 20lbs overweight. So let's set that aside & assume that people weigh what they weigh because their lifestyle dictates their weight & when they shop for a bike it's not a choice of a lighter bike or a lighter body.
IME a lighter bike is much more enjoyable to ride than a heavier bike. Why do non-pros buy lighter bikes if the weight savings doesn't translate into speed increases? Who knows, but really who cares? I assume it's because they can... they can afford it, they can justify it. But why should they have to justify their choices to anyone but themselves? It seems like every cyclist on a 24lb bike needs every cyclist on a sub 17lb bike to justify their reasons for spending their money. Just choose your bike, ride the hell out of it & don't worry about the choices of others.
IME a lighter bike is much more enjoyable to ride than a heavier bike. Why do non-pros buy lighter bikes if the weight savings doesn't translate into speed increases? Who knows, but really who cares? I assume it's because they can... they can afford it, they can justify it. But why should they have to justify their choices to anyone but themselves? It seems like every cyclist on a 24lb bike needs every cyclist on a sub 17lb bike to justify their reasons for spending their money. Just choose your bike, ride the hell out of it & don't worry about the choices of others.
10-17-15, 09:52 AM
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The weight difference might amount to a very small performance difference by itself. But for many people, a lighter bike feels faster. That feeling might force you to ride harder at the same time.
But a carbon frame has other advantages. It can be formed for aero benefits which does produce measurable improvements. The weight can be reallocated to produce a stiffer bottom to help with sprints but not with a weight gain.
But a carbon frame has other advantages. It can be formed for aero benefits which does produce measurable improvements. The weight can be reallocated to produce a stiffer bottom to help with sprints but not with a weight gain.
10-17-15, 10:11 AM
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Any time the weight of a bike is brought up I see this false equivalent comparison to losing body weight. Now it's up there at 20lbs. If you can lose 20lbs body weight, do it. It sounds incredibly easy based on the posts I read. But realize that if this weight loss was as easy as is suggested, you wouldn't be 20lbs overweight. So let's set that aside & assume that people weigh what they weigh because their lifestyle dictates their weight & when they shop for a bike it's not a choice of a lighter bike or a lighter body.
IME a lighter bike is much more enjoyable to ride than a heavier bike. Why do non-pros buy lighter bikes if the weight savings doesn't translate into speed increases? Who knows, but really who cares? I assume it's because they can... they can afford it, they can justify it. But why should they have to justify their choices to anyone but themselves? It seems like every cyclist on a 24lb bike needs every cyclist on a sub 17lb bike to justify their reasons for spending their money. Just choose your bike, ride the hell out of it & don't worry about the choices of others.
IME a lighter bike is much more enjoyable to ride than a heavier bike. Why do non-pros buy lighter bikes if the weight savings doesn't translate into speed increases? Who knows, but really who cares? I assume it's because they can... they can afford it, they can justify it. But why should they have to justify their choices to anyone but themselves? It seems like every cyclist on a 24lb bike needs every cyclist on a sub 17lb bike to justify their reasons for spending their money. Just choose your bike, ride the hell out of it & don't worry about the choices of others.
If OP is saying "should I buy a carbon bike just because it is lighter," my response was that in the context of a climb in competition, small differences in weight can matter a lot. And personally, the weight of my bike is not the first (or second or third) major limiting factor in climbing performance.
For most everyday cyclists, we're probably better off buying the bike that's overall most enjoyable to ride. If that means a lighter carbon bike, then great. But I think most everyday cyclists would be mistaken to make a decision what bike to buy simply on the basis that it's slightly lighter. If that weight difference translates into something you like, then buy it for that reason. But I personally am not going to go into a bike shop with a scale and buy whatever is lightest.
10-17-15, 10:15 AM
#43
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Read & understood.
A. You can do both
B. It's a false equivalence
C. If losing weight was as easy as choosing a lighter bike you wouldn't be carrying 5 extra pounds
By all means buy the bike you like the best, whether that be based on weight, color or perceived speed.
How do you think we are saying different things? I'm merely saying that your body weight, the weight of the bike, the price of the bike are all things that you needn't worry about wrt to other people.
If I'm really serious about improving my performance, I'm going to get a lot more out of a 20 pound body weight loss than a 1.1 pound weight savings on the bike.
B. It's a false equivalence
C. If losing weight was as easy as choosing a lighter bike you wouldn't be carrying 5 extra pounds
By all means buy the bike you like the best, whether that be based on weight, color or perceived speed.
How do you think we are saying different things? I'm merely saying that your body weight, the weight of the bike, the price of the bike are all things that you needn't worry about wrt to other people.
10-17-15, 10:18 AM
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Dave, this body weight conflation with bike weight just doesn't seem to go away. Ever.
10-17-15, 10:20 AM
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Agreed. It is literally as if you walk into an LBS and they offer you the choice... bike A weighing 14lbs or bike B weighing 20lbs which also comes with a miracle diet that will cause you to lose 6lbs easily. No one ever seems to consider that they could buy the light bike AND lose the weight. You'd be super fast then. Get a red bike & you're set.
10-17-15, 10:27 AM
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10-17-15, 10:33 AM
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Buy a classic used steel bike, modern gears and shifters are a plus. You will get more comments and appreciation for the bike instead of people snickering about the 190lb mamil on an expensive carbon bike. You can always blame the bike if you are slow and if you are faster than cyclists on carbon they will think you are incredibly strong.
10-17-15, 02:10 PM
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I am not sure what kind of power you are personally generating from your body but I don't think there is a bike of any type on this planet that 'shoots' out from under me no matter how hard I pedal and I believe I am a fairly strong recreational cyclist.
I have only ridden steel, carbon and aluminum though so can't talk of any other materials.
I have only ridden steel, carbon and aluminum though so can't talk of any other materials.
it's all about acceleration. the lighter the bike, and even more so with the wheels, the faster it accelerates given the same force. in order to stay with it you have to hold on.
to test this put your bike under a tree limb. hold on to the tree limb then pedal, the bike will move out from under you. and you will be left hanging from the limb.
you see, we actually have to hold on to the bike in order to go forward.
the trouble is that by the time we learn how to crawl, walk, and ride a bike we have a good working knowledge of mass and acceleration, so we tend to think the cyclist and the bicycle are a unit when in fact they are not. we are connected to it by only the hands and feet and somewhat less by the saddle.
think about it this way... most would prefer to ride an 18 pound bike over a 24 pound bike. so why should it be any different between a 12 pound bike and a 15 pound bike?
BTW, whether or not we agree on what constitutes "shoots" is indeed arguable. but believe me the 1 oz bike would "shoot out" from under you.
Last edited by hueyhoolihan; 10-17-15 at 02:29 PM.