Zeppelin

Sorry for the long post I hope the info is relevant and I could use some opinions and options...

Brief history...

Long time cyclist - took it up in 1999 had 2 decent road bikes with STI shifters and entry level campag and Shimano components. Loved it but was ignorant about training and never fast.

Moved to Korea 10 years ago and since then have had various bargain basement road bikes. Have gone through phases of riding and not riding.

This year I got serious. Have lost 20KG and am on my second round of the Time Crunched Cyclist program (Carmichael). Its been my first experience of high intensity training and I LOVE it. My average speed has shot up to almost 20mph.

I'm 38 years old, working on losing another 10-15kgs of weight. Riding 3-5 times a week for about 10 hours.

My rides are between 1-3 hours (25-80km), generally flat, almost always alone. I have no desire or options to ride in a bunch or compete in races or sportives (we don't seem to have them here and my Korean language skills suck).


As I've got lighter I've got more interested in using the drops and the more aero positions on the hoods. Ive ditched the top tube bag and have got into more aero clothes with less embarrassment. I love to go faster (relatively of course I know my average speeds are not impressive to racers).

My goals:

1. To go faster than I did before. Consistently. In Feb this year I averaged 19km/h. I can do 28 km/h consistently now and occasionally 30+km/h. We don't get extreme winds here in my part of South Korea but head winds seem to affect me a lot less than they did.
2. To really enjoy my rides and keep improving. Keep motivated to train.
3. To get higher up in Strava sements and Map My Ride courses. (just for fun, I'm generally in the top 30-50 but we probably have less serious riders here than in Europe/North America). I'm not touring and if I do I could always use my current bike for that. If I get a new bike I think I want to to be as pure a speed machine as it can be within my sub $2,000 budget as possible.


My current bike is a Korean made road bike with an aluminium frame budget shimano/generic drivetrain with shifters on the handlebars (not STI). Weighs around 10kg with Look KEO pedals. Cost about $500 6 years ago. It's done 7,000+km and has recently needed a new wheel ($100).

Budget would be around $2000. Looking at Merida Reacto 4000, or 500 and Giant Propel variations as both are readily available here and at decent prices. Seems like Carbon with 105 or Aluminium with Ultegra are my options. Aero is more expenisve than lightweight.


I have some questions.

1. What benefits will a new bike bring me (I've almost forgotten how it feels to ride with STI shifters. Never had a carbon frame). OR should I just continue to ride what I have and focus on weight loss and training improvements and maybe buy an aero helmet?

2. I'm really interested in an aero bike. I don't do a lot of long distance rides (mostly due to time and geographical constraints). I am motivated by my average speed/times. I like how they look. Are aero bikes a good idea FOR ME?

3. What about a lightweight bike with aero wheel upgrades a bit later. That would gve me 2 options. I could fit the standard wheels for hilly rides and the deep section rim wheels for the (more often) quick blasts?

4. Through Craigslist I often see great deals on older bikes. Generally Carbon frame with Ultegra components for less than $1,500. Weight advertised at under 9kgs. I'm tempted but a bit wary. Any thoughts?

silversx80

The biggest cause of aerodynamic drag is the rider, not the bike. Unless you race, I'd say that you'll be happiest on the most comfortable bike, regardless of aero benefits. Getting a more aerodynamic helmet, tighter clothes, lower body size and a more aerodynamic position will all do better than an aero bike as far as return on investment is concerned. Finally, getting a bike size that is appropriate for you, and a proper fit will mean that you can generate more power for longer, resulting in higher speeds.

Now, if you like an aero bike for its aesthetic value to you, get it.

JamesRL

From my long distance understanding of Korean geography, there are a lot of hills. I'd be thinking light, especially in the wheels.

Shuffleman

This about sums it up. If you like the aero bikes for their looks than go for it. I would suggest that you go for comfort first though.

Zeppelin

Thats fair enough but looking at the evidence it seems that an aero bike is faster on the flat than a lightweight bike with the same rider on it. It also seems that a slower rider can potentially gain even more advantage by virute of taking longer to ride the same course... A few km/h on my average speed makes me happy...

i guess the key question is how less comfortable aero bikes are vs lightweight bikes (we're generally talking less than 1.5kgs difference in my price bracket too).

Homebrew01

You expect to gain a few km/h due to an aero bike ?!?!?!

Zeppelin

Only going on the evidence I've seen.

How much faster is an aero bike? (video) - Cycling Weekly

At 200W the Canyon travelled 5150m at an average speed of 30.9kph

At 200W the Cervelo travelled 5425m at an average speed of 32.6kph

Weight vs Aero - Cervélo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlz52XW6CMM

If you have something which shows it makes less/no difference I'd love to read it.

silversx80

Looks like your mind is made up. Test ride the aero bikes you like and buy the one you like the most.

Zeppelin

I wish it was. However I'm quite drawn to the idea of saving up to $1,000 and buying a lighter, older bike off of Craigslist but.... I'm not sure about that if it seems too good to be true etc...

wphamilton

Since you say it's mostly flat and you ride mostly alone, weight is a secondary consideration. Aero trumps weight. But the problem with aero frames is that the realistic gain is small. We're looking at six or eight watts at around 40 kph (when tested with a rider on the bike), from the aero frame. Cervelo claims better but you've got to take that with a grain of salt.

There's a bigger difference from which tires you select. Or taking the bottle cage off is in that same range. Aero wheels make a bigger difference in drag. There are way better gains from an aerobar. So it's really hard to justify a Scott Foil or Cervelo S5 on aerodynamics alone.

Shuffleman

This is very subjective. I am very comfortable on a traditional geometry bike. Others are more comfortable on a relaxed geometry bike. All of our bodies are different and acclimate differently. I am not sure that it is a matter of aero vs light weight when it comes to comfort. I would think that comfort is sacrificed for aero but I could be way wrong. Testing both is the only way for you to find out what is best for your body.
There can be good deals off of Craigs list for standard road bikes and aero bikes. Like anything else, the more common something is the more likely you are to find it on Craigs List. Far less people ride aero bikes so they are harder to find used ones, especially if you are shorter or taller than average.
OP--New or used really does not matter. Neither does Light weight or aero. What matters is that you like the bike and want to ride it. Whatever choice you make is up to you. We can give you guidance and advice but in the end it is your bike.
Some people like to get into the technical end of things and that is part of their enjoyment. I totally get that. Logically though, the way to get faster is to get in better shape and work on your technique. It is difficult for your bike to hold you back. If you have maximized your effeciency and weight than focus on your equipment. Either way, good luck with your decision and your purchase.

kc0bbq

For training it really doesn't matter what bike you are on, since you are looking for target power/intensity and speed has no bearing. Will you enjoy the new bike more?

I wanted an aero bike and recently got a Propel SL. I like it, it's fun to hammer with on flat ground. It feels great on descents. It climbs OK, but the geometry makes climbing feel like a bit of a chore to me. I have a Madone 3.1 (lowest level of Trek's carbon) that I put nice, light wheels on (November Rail 34s) and despite the fact that the two bikes weigh essentially the same it feels better, especially on grades higher than 4-5%. The Giant is noticeably better starting at 21-22mph, but a lot of that is having a bit more aggressive setup getting me flatter - I do notice the bike a bit (Madone 3.1 has round tubes).

Most rides I do (hilly but not mountainous) the Madone would be faster overall, despite being quite a bit cheaper even with adding the carbon wheels. On flat rides the Propel SL gives better average speeds, 0.5-1.2 mph improvement, usually, for the same effort depending on how limber I feel that day. A lot of that is the more aggressive setup keeping my back flatter. It's hard to judge exactly speed differences, though, because of different wind conditions. For a long enough ride where I'm not trying to work my normalized power usually ends up at a similar value.

The Propel wears me down a bit more after 40 miles, but that's more me building up core strength to fit the different geometry.

Both of these bikes weigh about 17 lbs as I ride them, minus bottles. Neither is ultra light, but I'm 6'2" so there's bigger sizes means more bike to weigh.

I choose the one I think will be more fun for the day's ride. There's probably some placebo effect because of that.

Elvo

Start with the aerobars, skin suit, and aero helmet before you move onto the aero frameset.

woodcraft

Craigslist can be great.

Lots of nice barely used/underused bikes out there for half the cost of new & less.

I've purchased at least seven bikes through CL- no problems.

Look for private party sellers whose story makes sense. Pass over situations that seem off to avoid scams, stolen bikes, & (pardon the term) weirdos.

Not a bad way to try out a few bikes, if you don't travel too far.

hueyhoolihan

unless you are habitually riding at 18 mph or more, IME aero, whether on you (most important) or your bike (less important) is of little concern. above that, you'll go faster with the same amount of effort, if that's important to you.

Maelochs

I have no idea what kinds of bikes are sold on Korea's version of Craigslist, but in the U.S. I often see excellent deals on used bikes. Go check out anything that looks really good, but do so with great care--don't fall in love when you see it (or before.) Check out how worn it is, ask about repairs, maintenance, upgrades the owner might have done ... basic buying via classified ad stuff.

optimally you would find an awesome used bike and ride it a while and love it, and then start shopping for another because, that's what cyclists eventually do ... so whether you go lightweight or aero, you will eventually buy the other as well. No problem.

As many have said, buy whatever you like because that will keep you riding, and it is by riding that you will make gains, not so much through equipment.

I definitely will check out Time Crunched Cyclist --- no idea what it is but your tacit recommendation has got me intrigued.

omarcastz

A lot of good responses to OP's question already.

I may not be answering his question directly but with regards to addressing his stated goals:

1. To go faster. 2. To enjoy the rides, keep improving and stay motivated. 3. To get higher up on Strava segments and Map My Ride courses.

Here is another couple of suggestions to OP: Have you gotten properly fitted for your bike?. Do you already have a power meter? Since you appear to be following the Time Crunched Cyclist training program, then you know that the book also talks about training with a power meter and power zones. If you bike is good enough then I would recommend getting a power meter and focus on your structured training instead of getting a new bike. Also working on your fit and position on the bike will help tremendously. Since you mention that you are working on losing 10-15 kgs then I would say that getting a new bike in and of itself won't make you faster. I say that you will hit all of your stated goals by losing the extra weight (focus on nutrition), and using a power meter to better structure your training (I will concede that getting a new bike would probably scratch goal #2 and keep you motivated).

If you want a bike because you want to switch your ride and because it will keep you riding, there is nothing wrong with that. Go ahead and do it but there are smarter ways to hit your stated goals.

Your stated goals can be better met with the following:

1. Focus on nutrition to lose the 10-15 kgs
2. Work on your fit and position. Have you had a professional fit done? This is a good way to spend your money.
2. Focus on your training. If you must spend money on equipment, think of getting a power meter to upgrade your structured training program.

This will really make you faster rather than getting a new bike.

As other people have mentioned, getting a tight fitting kit and an aero helmet and aero wheels all are more cost effective ways than spending money on a brand new aero bike (for which you would still need to do the training, focus on your position, and lose the weight anyways). However, aero equipment purchases are always secondary in return on investment value than nutrition, your own weigh loss, and structured training.

StanSeven

Aero wheels are much more beneficial than an aero frame. That gives you more versatility too. If you want an aero frame, do research first because all frames are not equal.

Disregard the input about buying a skinsuit, aero time trial helmet, aerobars, etc. unless you plan on doing tt's.

So my advice is buy wheels for now. If you want more speed, consider the frame later.

Bunyanderman

There looks to be many more differences than just a aero frame. On the Cervelo, there was aero wheels, and an aero handle bar. That handle bar, while looking ugly, is the most aero bar on the road right now. I am sure with just the frame, the difference would be much less.
I own an aero frame with aero wheels, and I love the look of it, even if I built it on a budget. I also started racing, and have had some success in cat 5, but that's only cat 5. I'd like to think my frame helps me, but its mainly placebo.

asgelle

Not according to Aero Assistant Standard wheels to very aero front, disk rear saves ~87 sec. for a 40km TT. Standard frame to high end aero, ~83 sec. (super bike gives ~87 sec.)

OldTryGuy

The purchase of my Giant Propel was not predicated on the "aero" characteristics, rather the horizontal top tube(do not care for the slanted ones) and was narrow enough for my knee in pedaling style. The comfort is outstanding and handling is great.

Test ride as many as possible and simply buy the one that talks to you.

StanSeven

If that's right, I stand corrected. Interesting they group the S5 and Venge with the P2 in the superbike category. That seems like a stretch saying those aero road bikes are similar to a top TT/tri bike.

Edit: I just remembered Specialized came up with pretty substantial data with verification from multiple sources that the Venge is at least that fast.

RChung

In terms of frame and fork, they're very close. That is, if you swap out the bars of a S5 so that you have the "cockpit" of a P2 or P3 (and, of course, if you adjust the touchpoints so that you can attain the same position as you would on a P2 or P3) the resulting drag measurements are very close. So if you think the P2/P3 is a superbike then the S5 is, too. The P5 is slipperier than the P2/P3/S5 but not by much.

StanSeven

Thanks. Now that I think about it, I had the Cervelo hierarchy backwards. The P5 is the most slippery high end one. It's interesting what you said about it not being a whole lot more than the others.

Dan333SP

If all OP cares about is improving aerodynamics to attain higher average speeds, the cheapest way to do that is clip-on aero bars on his current bike. Once you dial in your positioning on those, you'd notice a real improvement in your speed for a given effort. Just go out on your current bike, start hammering in the drops, and then put your forearms on the tops (if you're comfortable with that) to mimic the aerobar position. With the same effort, you'll notice your speed climbing immediately from tucking your arms in to your body and flattening your back. Fun to play with that stuff and see how much of a difference it makes. IMO the aero frame isn't worth it for you, but a newer bike, maybe a nice mid-range carbon frame with 105 5800, is within your price range and would give you better shifting and a nicer ride.