My Road Bike has Low Flop Steering
11-13-15, 07:17 PM
#151
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Aside from the rhetoric, do you not agree that bike handling dictates just how active a rider has to be in controlling the bike? Is this a controversial statement?
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
11-13-15, 07:20 PM
#152
Senior Member
That's an interesting test. I do believe the rider will be able to tell the difference between a bike with a 17mm flop (kinda standard for a road bike) vs. one with 0mm flop (90 degree headtube and back-turned fork). The question is how this will feel to the rider and what is the magnitude of the change.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
11-13-15, 07:23 PM
#153
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that's because you have to account for difference in compliance of cromo to calculate effective trail.
u know how saving 1g from the wheel is like saving 5g from the frame?
1mm of trail in cromo is like 1.5mm of trail in CF. +/- 0.2mm depending on carbon layup.
cromo forks: transversely stiff, yet longitudinally compliant.
u know how saving 1g from the wheel is like saving 5g from the frame?
1mm of trail in cromo is like 1.5mm of trail in CF. +/- 0.2mm depending on carbon layup.
cromo forks: transversely stiff, yet longitudinally compliant.
11-13-15, 07:26 PM
#154
Senior Member
^^^
I'll go out on a limb and guess that cromo forks deflect under the weight of the rider, naturally increasing the trail from the weightless value. CF less so.
I'll go out on a limb and guess that cromo forks deflect under the weight of the rider, naturally increasing the trail from the weightless value. CF less so.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
11-13-15, 07:28 PM
#155
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Where is the Tarantula when you need it?
11-13-15, 07:28 PM
#156
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Can you even believe the position being taken here that the bike doesn't matter? Unbelievable.
Anybody that has ridden a Roubaix and a Tarmac knows that bike geometry dramatically influences handling.
Can't make this stuff up what some people believe...lol.
11-13-15, 07:33 PM
#158
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11-13-15, 07:34 PM
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11-13-15, 07:36 PM
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There's a difference between insult and rhetorical exaggeration. I did't insult your heritage, or your looks, or your profile picture or anything outside of what you wrote down as a comment. My critique was wholly contained within your written words. Why so sensitive? You were much rougher with the OP.
Aside from the rhetoric, do you not agree that bike handling dictates just how active a rider has to be in controlling the bike? Is this a controversial statement?
Aside from the rhetoric, do you not agree that bike handling dictates just how active a rider has to be in controlling the bike? Is this a controversial statement?
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11-13-15, 07:44 PM
#162
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Do you not think the fork gives under rider weight and the wheel base and rake increase slightly due to flexing of the fork?. I'm not taking sides on most of this argument, but that fact seems pretty obvious to me.
11-13-15, 08:07 PM
#163
~>~
Here's my response to Brian, substantially different than what you injected:
I definitely have had favorite race bikes, still own three of them and still ride them all.
The thing that they all have in common is the Fit: not the geometry, frame materials or components.
I'm not descended from the Princess Who Could Not Abide the Pea and have found adapting to a good quality properly fit race bike posed no great difficulty, or gain/loss in race results.
To anyone looking for the secret formula to better bike handling: Ride Cyclo Cross.
-Bandera
The thing that they all have in common is the Fit: not the geometry, frame materials or components.
I'm not descended from the Princess Who Could Not Abide the Pea and have found adapting to a good quality properly fit race bike posed no great difficulty, or gain/loss in race results.
To anyone looking for the secret formula to better bike handling: Ride Cyclo Cross.
-Bandera
-Bandera
11-13-15, 08:15 PM
#164
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I can't see the difference. You said you could adapt to a "good quality road bike" without any difficulty or change in race results. Sounds to me like you are saying the geometry doesn't matter. I'm not taking sides on that point, just saying you weren't misrepresented.
11-13-15, 08:24 PM
#165
~>~
I can't see the difference. You said you could adapt to a "good quality road bike" without any difficulty or change in race results. Sounds to me like you are saying the geometry doesn't matter. I'm not taking sides on that point, just saying you weren't misrepresented.
The thing that they all have in common is the Fit: not the geometry, frame materials or components.
adapting to a good quality properly fit race bike posed no great difficulty, or gain/loss in race results.
A good bike handler gets the most out of any bike's handling by adapting to it.
A good handling bike matched to a good bike handler is a treat, and very fast/fun.
Once again: It's not about the Hardware, and Never has been. It's about Skill & Experience not niggling frame geometry.
BTW: Quote accurately or not at all.
Your "good quality road bike" is not my "good quality properly fit race bike".
A meaningful difference.
-Bandera
Last edited by Bandera; 11-13-15 at 09:01 PM.
11-13-15, 08:28 PM
#166
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That's an interesting test. I do believe the rider will be able to tell the difference between a bike with a 17mm flop (kinda standard for a road bike) vs. one with 0mm flop (90 degree headtube and back-turned fork). The question is how this will feel to the rider and what is the magnitude of the change.
And a 90° HTA does not require a back facing fork to have 0 flop. For such a critical feature, it seems like you would understand the math.
11-13-15, 08:42 PM
#167
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Yeah, I hear the UCI won't let those two models in the same race because they can't hold the same lines in curves.
11-13-15, 08:42 PM
#168
Senior Member
And a 90 degree HT is required with a backwards fork if you want to keep trail constant while making flop zero. Any non-90 degree HT will have some flop unless the trail were zero. I think Campag posted the equation:
Flop = sin(theta)*cos(theta)*t
where t=geometric trail and theta is the HT angle. For flop to be zero, one of these three terms needs to be zero. At 90 degrees, cos(90deg)=0 for arbitrary trail. Otherwise, for any other angle except 0, trail (t) has to equal zero.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 11-13-15 at 08:47 PM.
11-13-15, 09:21 PM
#169
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Why not entertain the silly example for a moment. Set the bounds of the problem. If you test at the bounds, then we can ascertain whether we are arguing existence of the effect or magnitude.
And a 90 degree HT is required with a backwards fork if you want to keep trail constant while making flop zero.
And a 90 degree HT is required with a backwards fork if you want to keep trail constant while making flop zero.
I believe the entire argument is about magnitude. You stated that I lacked observation skills because I saw no difference that I couldn't immediately adapt to between 15.7mm flop and 18.7mm flop. You implied that these changes should be a veritable **** in a punchbowl.
11-13-15, 09:32 PM
#171
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As noted:
That is key, the proper Fit on a good quality race bike along with lots of seat time and racing experience in a variety of disciplines.
A good bike handler gets the most out of any bike's handling by adapting to it.
A good handling bike matched to a good bike handler is a treat, and very fast/fun.
Once again: It's not about the Hardware, and Never has been. It's about Skill & Experience not niggling frame geometry.
BTW: Quote accurately or not at all.
Your "good quality road bike" is not my "good quality properly fit race bike".
A meaningful difference.
-Bandera
That is key, the proper Fit on a good quality race bike along with lots of seat time and racing experience in a variety of disciplines.
A good bike handler gets the most out of any bike's handling by adapting to it.
A good handling bike matched to a good bike handler is a treat, and very fast/fun.
Once again: It's not about the Hardware, and Never has been. It's about Skill & Experience not niggling frame geometry.
BTW: Quote accurately or not at all.
Your "good quality road bike" is not my "good quality properly fit race bike".
A meaningful difference.
-Bandera
Last edited by rpenmanparker; 11-13-15 at 09:46 PM.
11-13-15, 09:36 PM
#172
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Why are we conflating the question of whether a certain design bike can be ridden optimally with whether it can be ridden at all. That is just manipulative rhetoric. There are better bike designs for a certain purpose, and there are worse. Saying you can make do is totally besides the point.
11-13-15, 09:44 PM
#173
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Bandera, bike fit is important to effective riding of each certain type, perhaps even most important, but not to the exclusion of every other design consideration. When you specify "race" bike, you forfeit your argument. Not because that is wrong, but because it shows you recognize certain design characteristics are needed for certain purposes. You are just splitting hairs when you say any "race" bike works for you. We are basically arguing about what IS a race bike.
11-13-15, 09:57 PM
#174
Senior Member
...
I believe the entire argument is about magnitude. You stated that I lacked observation skills because I saw no difference that I couldn't immediately adapt to between 15.7mm flop and 18.7mm flop. You implied that these changes should be a veritable **** in a punchbowl.
I believe the entire argument is about magnitude. You stated that I lacked observation skills because I saw no difference that I couldn't immediately adapt to between 15.7mm flop and 18.7mm flop. You implied that these changes should be a veritable **** in a punchbowl.
About the other thing, you had stated you couldn't tell a difference, therefore, there was none. I was proposing an alternative (tongue in cheek) hypothesis that equally explained the evidence given.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
11-13-15, 10:24 PM
#175
~>~
Even better I have a good many decades of Experience.
This obsession w/ hardware minutiae in the 41 is completely absurd compared with what it takes (Seat time & plain hard work) to actually be a more effective cyclist, but makes for pages of pages.
If one wishes to be a better bike handler go ride Cyclo Cross.
A slight difference in frame geometry or barometric pressure really doesn't matter much when one actually know how to handle the bike.
It's not about the Hardware, and Never has been.
Unless it's 41 Reality where it's all about the hardware.......
-Bandera
This obsession w/ hardware minutiae in the 41 is completely absurd compared with what it takes (Seat time & plain hard work) to actually be a more effective cyclist, but makes for pages of pages.
If one wishes to be a better bike handler go ride Cyclo Cross.
A slight difference in frame geometry or barometric pressure really doesn't matter much when one actually know how to handle the bike.
It's not about the Hardware, and Never has been.
Unless it's 41 Reality where it's all about the hardware.......
-Bandera
