Calling all Tubeless experts - help please!
#1
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Calling all Tubeless experts - help please!
So I just bought these Schwalbe Pro One 23mm tires, and was very excited when I got them before Xmas. I had a pair of Schwalbe One 25mm mounted on my American Classic Road Tubeless wheelset. Even thought I love the ride, they were pretty heavy, and just a little too wide for clearance comfort. So I decided to take them off and put on the new Pro One. I am using an pair big air compressor for this job. The rim tapes are the Stan's yellow tape, and the valve stems are the red American Classic ones.
The front went on as expected, no fuss, and it looks great. But I have a hell of a time mounting the rear because the tire just won't seat properly. At a particular spot about 6 inches long, the Schwalbe Pro One just won't move up to the rim, even though the air seem to be holding tight, it got stuck right at the edge of the center channel.
Here is what I've tried so far, and nothing has worked and the tire is still stuck in the same spot:
- changed the rim tape - now it has fresh Stan's yellow tape, 2 layers
- apply soapy water and windex to make the rim wall slippery
- pumped the air to 110psi. I am afraid to pump the tires more than that (hear some horror stories about tubeless slipping off the rims)
- put a inner tube and mount the tire as regular tubed, and pumped the tire to 12-psi, in the hope of expanding the tire a little, but the tire seem to got stuck in the same spot even with tube in it
- change to a difference Schwalbe Pro One tire (I ordered 4 of those)
- emailed American Classic, but heard nothing back. I think I will call them soon if nothing works
I am really at the wit's end. Anything you guys think I should try next?
The front went on as expected, no fuss, and it looks great. But I have a hell of a time mounting the rear because the tire just won't seat properly. At a particular spot about 6 inches long, the Schwalbe Pro One just won't move up to the rim, even though the air seem to be holding tight, it got stuck right at the edge of the center channel.
Here is what I've tried so far, and nothing has worked and the tire is still stuck in the same spot:
- changed the rim tape - now it has fresh Stan's yellow tape, 2 layers
- apply soapy water and windex to make the rim wall slippery
- pumped the air to 110psi. I am afraid to pump the tires more than that (hear some horror stories about tubeless slipping off the rims)
- put a inner tube and mount the tire as regular tubed, and pumped the tire to 12-psi, in the hope of expanding the tire a little, but the tire seem to got stuck in the same spot even with tube in it
- change to a difference Schwalbe Pro One tire (I ordered 4 of those)
- emailed American Classic, but heard nothing back. I think I will call them soon if nothing works
I am really at the wit's end. Anything you guys think I should try next?
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Maybe insufficient air flow volume; are you inflating with stem core in place? If so, try removing core and inflating to seat that way first.
I had the same issue with old Schwalbe One and AC Argents, and that was the fix.
I had the same issue with old Schwalbe One and AC Argents, and that was the fix.
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I will give that a try. I was inflating it with the valve core in place. Thanks
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Air volume at high enough pressure to quickly seat the tire.
FWIW - IMHO - the real solution is using a tube.
FWIW - IMHO - the real solution is using a tube.
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#6
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If removing the valve core doesn't work, you could try moving the tire out of the center well before seating. I've had decent luck leaving one side in the center and the other side pre-set near the bead edge.
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Soap the snot out of the tire's bead, as well as the rim tape. Do exactly what you've been doing, to the point where you get about 100 psi in the tire. Leave the pressure in the tire overnight. It will be seated in the morning.
If you're getting the tire to inflate, there's enough airflow going in.
As a last resort, Am Classic's tape is really thin, and Stan's isn't that thin.
If you're getting the tire to inflate, there's enough airflow going in.
As a last resort, Am Classic's tape is really thin, and Stan's isn't that thin.
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Soap the snot out of the tire's bead, as well as the rim tape. Do exactly what you've been doing, to the point where you get about 100 psi in the tire. Leave the pressure in the tire overnight. It will be seated in the morning.
If you're getting the tire to inflate, there's enough airflow going in.
As a last resort, Am Classic's tape is really thin, and Stan's isn't that thin.
If you're getting the tire to inflate, there's enough airflow going in.
As a last resort, Am Classic's tape is really thin, and Stan's isn't that thin.
#9
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Tubeless is easy once you figure it out, it can be intimidating at first like you don't know what you're doing but its not rocket science. I've had the best luck mounting tubeless tires by soaping them up with a mix of 75% Dawn dish soap and 25% water. Get the tire and rim nice and slick before you start and it should pop in place. Like others have said, remove the core so it will allow the air to fill the tire at a faster rate and don't be afraid to air it up to the max psi of 120psi or slightly higher to get the bead seated.
Also, after airing it up to max psi with the unseated bead facing you at 12 o'clock, try grabbing the tire and rim with both hands, squeeze slightly, and roll the tire away from you as if you were trying to roll it off the other side of the rim. This may help move the tire in place.
I will say again, lubrication is key and it must be soapy, not 409 or Windex. Fold a paper towel and dip it in the solution I described above and liberally coat the tire bead and rim channel before you air it up.
Also, after airing it up to max psi with the unseated bead facing you at 12 o'clock, try grabbing the tire and rim with both hands, squeeze slightly, and roll the tire away from you as if you were trying to roll it off the other side of the rim. This may help move the tire in place.
I will say again, lubrication is key and it must be soapy, not 409 or Windex. Fold a paper towel and dip it in the solution I described above and liberally coat the tire bead and rim channel before you air it up.
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Yeah, thinner tape makes a tight tire easier to seat. Soap is a great lubricant to help the bead slide across the bench and lock into the rim. dvdslw gives good advice in his post.
#11
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dvdslw is spot-on, so do everything he said.
OP, don't be scared to inflate over 110 psi (or even over 120 psi, for that matter). If you've got a tire bead that's not seating at 110psi, 120 isn't going to make it blow out over the rim. This is your "Tim, the Toolman Taylor" moment. Whaddya need? More PSI!!!
Keep in mind, the max tire rating is a beyond-worst-case-scenario-lawyers-covering-their-arse number. Imagine a 400 pound dude on a fully-laden touring bike flying downhill at 50 mph riding the brakes at a high altitude in the middle of the desert on a 130 degree day, and that's what that max psi number is designed to protect against. You're not getting anywhere close to the limitations of that tire by trying to seat it at 120 psi.
OP, don't be scared to inflate over 110 psi (or even over 120 psi, for that matter). If you've got a tire bead that's not seating at 110psi, 120 isn't going to make it blow out over the rim. This is your "Tim, the Toolman Taylor" moment. Whaddya need? More PSI!!!
Keep in mind, the max tire rating is a beyond-worst-case-scenario-lawyers-covering-their-arse number. Imagine a 400 pound dude on a fully-laden touring bike flying downhill at 50 mph riding the brakes at a high altitude in the middle of the desert on a 130 degree day, and that's what that max psi number is designed to protect against. You're not getting anywhere close to the limitations of that tire by trying to seat it at 120 psi.
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dvdslw is spot-on, so do everything he said.
OP, don't be scared to inflate over 110 psi (or even over 120 psi, for that matter). If you've got a tire bead that's not seating at 110psi, 120 isn't going to make it blow out over the rim. This is your "Tim, the Toolman Taylor" moment. Whaddya need? More PSI!!!
Keep in mind, the max tire rating is a beyond-worst-case-scenario-lawyers-covering-their-arse number. Imagine a 400 pound dude on a fully-laden touring bike flying downhill at 50 mph riding the brakes at a high altitude in the middle of the desert on a 130 degree day, and that's what that max psi number is designed to protect against. You're not getting anywhere close to the limitations of that tire by trying to seat it at 120 psi.
OP, don't be scared to inflate over 110 psi (or even over 120 psi, for that matter). If you've got a tire bead that's not seating at 110psi, 120 isn't going to make it blow out over the rim. This is your "Tim, the Toolman Taylor" moment. Whaddya need? More PSI!!!
Keep in mind, the max tire rating is a beyond-worst-case-scenario-lawyers-covering-their-arse number. Imagine a 400 pound dude on a fully-laden touring bike flying downhill at 50 mph riding the brakes at a high altitude in the middle of the desert on a 130 degree day, and that's what that max psi number is designed to protect against. You're not getting anywhere close to the limitations of that tire by trying to seat it at 120 psi.
So I will use plenty of soap (or that just soapy water) along the tire and rim, take the core out to pump the air, and overinflate to max PSI if needed, and if this still does not seat the tire, wait and hope it will move over time.
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I'd be cautious with both the pressure and the manhandling of the tire. Hutchinson tubeless cx tires (particularly Toros) are a snug fit, and my experience with them is the basis for the advice I gave above. On one occasion, within the tire's recommended max pressure but at about 3x my intended use pressure, I had a bead break in the precise situation you've described. For one, I thought I'd gone deaf from the sound. For two, it made an unholy mess. For three, those boxer shorts went directly into the trash. And for number four, the tire followed the boxers into the bin.
Because of that, I'd recommend using a pump, with the valve stem installed. You could rock the tire as dvdslw suggests, but going gorilla on it may have a regrettable end. If the tire is going to seat, time will do the work for you. Abandoning caution could have a bad outcome.
Because of that, I'd recommend using a pump, with the valve stem installed. You could rock the tire as dvdslw suggests, but going gorilla on it may have a regrettable end. If the tire is going to seat, time will do the work for you. Abandoning caution could have a bad outcome.
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NovemberDave's tale of woe reminds us to add sealant after seating the tire.
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You guys have pumped me up, pun intended, to try again when my garage goes above single digit temperature.
So I will use plenty of soap (or that just soapy water) along the tire and rim, take the core out to pump the air, and overinflate to max PSI if needed, and if this still does not seat the tire, wait and hope it will move over time.
So I will use plenty of soap (or that just soapy water) along the tire and rim, take the core out to pump the air, and overinflate to max PSI if needed, and if this still does not seat the tire, wait and hope it will move over time.
Don't take chances with tires.
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Sealant went flying all over a bunch of brand new bikes in the show room. Spectacular, and deafening. I didn't need to change my shorts though...I've been near aircraft when the tire has blown.
That scared the buhjebus outta me.
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I have 4 of these, and 3 of them have the same issue; so I am inclined to think it's not the tire's problem, but a combination of tire/rim/mounting. Haven't tried the heavy soap method yet and will do that when it gets a bit warmer. I will definitely keep the PSI in check as I go and hope the slow and steady will do the trick.
#18
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The good news about the Schwalbe tires is that they don't need sealant. You should be able to get the tire to seat without using any sealant, just soapy water on the bead. So you can seat the beads, then remove the valve core and add sealant.
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You don't ever need sealant to seat the beads, though, do you? I thought sealant was for making an airtight seal on some tire/rims, and providing puncture sealing. Also, I think it's easier to seat any tubeless tire if the valve core is removed first, to allow sufficient air volume, and only replaced after adding sealant to the seated tire.
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You don't ever need sealant to seat the beads, though, do you? I thought sealant was for making an airtight seal on some tire/rims, and providing puncture sealing. Also, I think it's easier to seat any tubeless tire if the valve core is removed first, to allow sufficient air volume, and only replaced after adding sealant to the seated tire.
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Generally, I agree with this start to finish. In the OP's case, the problem isn't getting sufficient air into the tire, but getting the tire out on the bench and locked into the bead hook. Having the valve core installed would make it easier to leave the pressure in the tire and let time do its thing, but my general technique is to inflate sans core, then inject sealant with a veterinary syringe ($4 for a 2 pack at the hardware store), reinstall core, and inflate to desired pressure.
Oddly enough, a local customer had us true his AX Lightness carbon clinchers and install his new Schwalbe One 28s just this morning. They were both challenging to install, one being much more of a challenge than the other. Once installed, they inflated and seated fine, but zowies they were tight. Without very very good technique, you wouldn't have a prayer getting that thing on.
Side note - holy crap those wheels are light. They also turn your wallet into an anti-gravity machine.
Oddly enough, a local customer had us true his AX Lightness carbon clinchers and install his new Schwalbe One 28s just this morning. They were both challenging to install, one being much more of a challenge than the other. Once installed, they inflated and seated fine, but zowies they were tight. Without very very good technique, you wouldn't have a prayer getting that thing on.
Side note - holy crap those wheels are light. They also turn your wallet into an anti-gravity machine.
#22
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I find either the Stan's or Hutchinson single serve sealant bottles are the best for injecting the juice, no need for a syringe unless you buy the quart sized bottle, and yes inject sealant only after the beads have seated.
After thinking about your situation some more, I'm really surprised you're having so much trouble. One thing that comes to mind is November Dave's comment about the Stan's tape being thicker, one extra layer of tape or the same amount of layers but using thicker tape could just make the problem worse than it was from the start. Think of it this way, the Stan's tape is slightly thicker than the AC honey tape and one might think such a small difference is nothing to worry about but the tape is that much thicker the whole way around the rim so the tire has to stretch much more than you think. I also think the guys at American Classic have the tubeless thing down pat and would trust in their provided tape over Stan's.
I'd bet if you could go back to before you changed the tape and used the soapy mix I talked about earlier you likely would have got it seated.
After thinking about your situation some more, I'm really surprised you're having so much trouble. One thing that comes to mind is November Dave's comment about the Stan's tape being thicker, one extra layer of tape or the same amount of layers but using thicker tape could just make the problem worse than it was from the start. Think of it this way, the Stan's tape is slightly thicker than the AC honey tape and one might think such a small difference is nothing to worry about but the tape is that much thicker the whole way around the rim so the tire has to stretch much more than you think. I also think the guys at American Classic have the tubeless thing down pat and would trust in their provided tape over Stan's.
I'd bet if you could go back to before you changed the tape and used the soapy mix I talked about earlier you likely would have got it seated.
Last edited by dvdslw; 01-06-16 at 02:01 PM.
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if the above fails;
remove stans valve
insert regular tube and inflate to pressure till you hear the beads snap into place, leave overnight
break bead on the non problem side
remove tube
reinstall stans valve
put the "good side" of the tire back on and inflate
ive used this method with success with non tubeless tires on non tubeless rims, and non tubeless tires on tubeless rims
remove stans valve
insert regular tube and inflate to pressure till you hear the beads snap into place, leave overnight
break bead on the non problem side
remove tube
reinstall stans valve
put the "good side" of the tire back on and inflate
ive used this method with success with non tubeless tires on non tubeless rims, and non tubeless tires on tubeless rims
#24
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I find either the Stan's or Hutchinson single serve sealant bottles are the best for injecting the juice, no need for a syringe unless you buy the quart sized bottle, and yes inject sealant only after the beads have seated.
After thinking about your situation some more, I'm really surprised you're having so much trouble. One thing that comes to mind is November Dave's comment about the Stan's tape being thicker, one extra layer of tape or the same amount of layers but using thicker tape could just make the problem worse than it was from the start. Think of it this way, the Stan's tape is slightly thicker than the AC honey tape and one might think such a small difference is nothing to worry about but the tape is that much thicker the whole way around the rim so the tire has to stretch much more than you think. I also think the guys at American Classic have the tubeless thing down pat and would trust in their provided tape over Stan's.
I'd bet if you could go back to before you changed the tape and used the soapy mix I talked about earlier you likely would have got it seated.
After thinking about your situation some more, I'm really surprised you're having so much trouble. One thing that comes to mind is November Dave's comment about the Stan's tape being thicker, one extra layer of tape or the same amount of layers but using thicker tape could just make the problem worse than it was from the start. Think of it this way, the Stan's tape is slightly thicker than the AC honey tape and one might think such a small difference is nothing to worry about but the tape is that much thicker the whole way around the rim so the tire has to stretch much more than you think. I also think the guys at American Classic have the tubeless thing down pat and would trust in their provided tape over Stan's.
I'd bet if you could go back to before you changed the tape and used the soapy mix I talked about earlier you likely would have got it seated.
BTW, I've already done the regular tube thing trying to use the pressure of the inner tune to pop the tire into the hook, no luck. I think the tape is too thick.
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...or you could use a tube and already be riding. Just sayin.
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