patentcad

Campy is for delusional elitist wannabes. Shimano makes good stuff but they are on my **** list forever after abandoning generation 1 Di2 (you can't even get parts for it). Sram mechanical shifting ergos blow but that new electronic shifting looks very slick.

Pcad has spoken.

Why am I even posting here? Somebody shoot me please.

Ti or CF bullets only.

Inpd

Very interesting read but there is more to it than that. The article you reference cites Shimano USA's MAP (minimum advertise price) policy and complains that MAP can't be enforced overseas.

But here is Shimano's USA MAP policy for "soft" products (i.e. shoes etc.)(https://connect.shimano.com/media/b2...9830910179.pdf) the relevant quote to me (take it with a 50pound bag of salt ...) is

1) "This policy does not apply to the actual price at which Shimano products are sold by retailers. Each retailer is free to independently determine its actual retail price for Shimano products."

and

2) "This Policy does not apply to the following (exceptions):
 Brick-and-mortar in-store displays, in-store banners, or in-store price markings
 Internet “shopping cart” pages where the customer makes their final purchase election"

So MAP (in the case of soft products) just applies to the advertised price, they can sell it for what-every they want and put up signs in their store for that price and on the internet (but only after they click "add to basket")

I couldn't find their policy on other products.

The key questions are "What price do the UK vs USA retailers buy the product at?" Does anyone know that? Is there different invoices prices for the USA vs UK?

dr_lha

MAP is irrelevant, mostly, when an LBS pays more for wholesale Shimano parts than Merlin/Wiggle/Chain Reaction sell them to customers for. I.e. to price match Merlin an LBS would have to lose money. Not good for business.

Hiro11

Agreed. I have a friend who manages an LBS and he has completely given up quoting people on Shimano parts. The price on Chainreaction is often at or below his wholesale price.

Regarding Shimano: I can attest that their high end stuff is great. I've been assembling bikes using 600/Ultegra/DA since the eighties. I've personally never run into a part at this level made by Shimano that has a design flaw or a reliability issue. Their stuff is carefully engineered and they are highly focused on durability. Shimano won't do what they believe won't last, work well and be practical. For example, they've stuck with cup/cone hubs, they've stuck with alloy cranks, they only very recently and very reluctantly started producing press fit bottom brackets and their higher-end pedals are adjustable cup and cone. I agree with all of these choices. I can't comment on any Shimano below Ultegra.

Regarding Campy: by all reports it's fabulous stuff. I have a friend who rides 10K+ miles a year and has an ancient Campy Record group on his main bike that simply will not die. I've seen lots of 20+ year old Campy stuff out on the road. I've never met anyone who's had a problem with Campy stuff and everyone I've talked to who has it loves it. I will certainly buy a mechanical Campy group at some point in my life. I just wish it were a little easier to source in the US.

WalksOn2Wheels

The key points you're picking out are irrelevant to the U.S. vs. Europe situation. Those rules apply to U.S. dealers. Basically, the MAP might state you can only "advertise" at, say, 10% off. This means something for 100 bucks can be advertised for 90 on your website or a mailer and you're fine. If you want to sell it for less, you are free to do so. But the problem comes down to the fact that a U.S. retailer is paying maybe 50 bucks for that 100 dollar part while the online sellers from Europe are routinely advertising their stuff at say 38 or 40 bucks while still making a profit. At that point, you literally can not compete without losing money on every sale. It's not that the MAP doesn't exist, it's just that the pricing structure and rules for European dealers are seemingly entirely different from those in the U.S.

Inpd

I agree MAP doesn't seem to be as central as the article cited by @Lazyass implies it is which is why I said there is more to it.

There is one mention of the 5800 groupset I bought being sold by a UK distributor for less than the wholesale US price which seems to be the core problem. I'm dumbfounded why Shimano would have different prices for US vs UK retailers that's bad for THEIR business. Sure some of us will wait 2 weeks to get a delivery from the UK but many others may just decide to buy Campy, SRAM or worst yet, nothing at all.

Now if you want the real villain its Amazon! Before Amazon came along with their easy returns, easy browsing buying over the internet was daunting to many us. Now thanks to Amazon people are really comfortable buying on the internet which helps the likes of Ribble, Wiggle, Merlins, CRC etc.

dr_lha

Lets be clear here. The issue here is the ability of companies like Merlin to buy in bulk. An LBS in the UK will have the same issue as an LBS in the USA will have.

Let me take a wild guess as to what is happening with Merlin/Chain Reaction et al: All those companies sell their own brand bikes. They likely buy parts from Shimano in bulk (much like Specialized and others do), at very cheap rates, much cheaper than Shimano sells to an LBS. The only difference is that they purposely buy more than they need for their bike builds, and sell those additional parts at cut rates to consumers. Shimano knows this is happening, but turns a blind eye to it.

I wonder what percentage of Shimano's sales is aftermarket vs OEM? My guess is not enough to care about.

US laws likely differ from EU laws regarding the legality of what these companies do. Otherwise you'd expect someone like BikesDirect to get into the cheap parts game.

WalksOn2Wheels

That's the other thing that gets glossed over whenever this topic comes up. What we don't realize is that bike nerds who are comfortable doing full builds do not make up as large of a market share as we tend to think. That's because everyone here is a bike nerd. When I was at the shop, we had lots of very rich customers that would just walk in and say, "Could you get this for me?" They wouldn't even ask for a quote. We once did a full disc brake conversion on a pretty old, but well maintained 26" MTB. It ended up being something like a $1,500 dollar job because it involved brakes, wheels, and tires because he also wanted to go tubeless. He came back a month later and did almost the same thing to another bike in his stable. Another guy had us take SRAM Red off of his bike and install Di2. When we handed him the box of very lightly used SRAM Red he said, "You know, it's just not worth my time to mess around with this stuff online, could you just hold onto it and maybe if somebody really needs it, give it to them?" Another regular customer bought a Scott TT frame at a huge discount from us (leftover stock) and he proceeded to let us install a Shimano DA/Ultegra 11 speed mix on it at full price.

I could think of more stories, but you get the point. While online sales do cut into the bottom line of the shop, they're mostly losing cheap bastard customers that are a PITA to begin with. Really good shops with a good customer base will always weather the storm.

WalksOn2Wheels

I think this is the bulk of the issue, but I'm not sure what Shimano can do about it, or if it even registers to them. I'm sure the OEM sales are what drive the bottom line for them, because it inevitably leads to retail sales for replacement parts, so having their name on the majority of the bikes is the most important thing.

Hiro11

You definitely have a point. After all, I have a friend who took his 60th Anniversary Colnago C60 with Di2 on it into a shop to swap out a cassette... They charged him $45 labor for about 90 seconds of work plus about double the cost of the cassette online. This guy's loaded, he couldn't care less.

On the other hand, calling someone who doesn't want to pay inflated costs a "cheap bastard" isn't exactly fair. Calling oblivious dentists "good customers" is a bit strange as well. It seems to me that basing the business model of your shop on the ignorance of the customers isn't sustainable. This is especially true given the fact that we're talking about high end bikes, a small niche and one with a thriving enthusiast community. People don't stay clueless very long.

tarwheel 

Sure:

"Campy has soul while Shimano is godless. Campy-4-ever! LOL"

"Campy is much better quality."

I read a few posts like that and saw where it was going, but perhaps I read too much into it. What set me off is that someone starts a thread about his positive experience with Shimano products and the Campy fanboys immediately start chiming in. If you like Campy products, fine. I've got no problem with that, and I'm sure your opinions are well justified. However, if someone had started a thread extolling the virtues of Campagnolo, I doubt if a bunch of Shimano fans would have started touting Dura-Ace, Ultegra, etc.

WalksOn2Wheels

They aren't "inflated" prices. They are the prices set in the U.S. by the distribution model. They are certainly more, but they are the prices a consumer must pay if they want to support local businesses and U.S. distributors. Shimano did try (is trying? I haven't kept up) going to a direct to dealer model, and it's actually worse. The prices are all still the same, but now it's harder for dealers to get them and reliably let customers know when something will get to the shop. So yeah, if you're upset about U.S. prices, it's not the dealers price gouging, it's Shimano setting the prices.

And yes, most of the people that refuse to set foot in shops and only buy online are mostly cheap bastards. I'm sorry that you're a cheap bastard. (I am, too. I just bought rollers online because the price was nearly half of every U.S. retailer.)

Also, I never mentioned a dentist. One of them is a Neuroscientist, and another is a commercial appliance repair technician. The other one was a surgeon. And there is another surgeon who has dropped serious coin there as well. These are people that make lots of money and are short on time. They'd rather enjoy the bikes than work on them, just like your friend. And as much as I love Campy, the prices they charge for cassettes are criminal.

As for the shop, it's only grown every year, has 4 locations, and was one of the few shops in the whole of the U.S. to post a profit in I think 2013, whichever year was a bad, bad year for bike shops. While I talked about the high end customers, the shop is mostly driven by family customers buying bikes for their kids, hybrids to knock around on, and selling cruisers like candy for Mother's Day. They have a pretty solid business model and do very well.

Hiro11

A commodity's price from one source that is much higher than the price of the same commodity from another source is by definition inflated. Understand, I'm not trying to blame the LBS and I'm not saying that the LBS is doing the inflating.

Yeah right. Dentists, the lot of them.

I see what you're saying but this often repeated argument bothers me personally. Swapping a cassette is really easy. Dropping your bike off at a shop, paying them an $50 for two minutes with a chain whip and spline tool (that sounds dirty), waiting a few days, driving back and picking up your bike... that takes effort.

This is true.

WalksOn2Wheels

I hear ya, but it's a thing that happens day in and day out at shops everywhere. When I first started, I felt almost wrong for charging 10 dollars to change a tube. But after a while, I realized that if you need to put your bike in your car/on a rack, drive to the shop and let someone else change your tube, you NEED to be charged 10 dollars. And as for a cassette swap, we would generally do that on the spot for them, so no waiting and driving back, and I want to say labor was like 20 bucks, maybe 15 for that.

And I get it on the "But it's SO easy!" front. It is easy to you and me and every other bike nerd posting online. In the 2 and a half years I spent at the shop, I met a lot of serious riders and racers and lots of people plugged into the industry in various ways and not ONE of them even knew what BF was. We are simply not the majority.

dr_lha

Indeed. Many people who ride bikes also have no interest in the mechanical side of things. The majority of people I know just buy whatever from the LBS, and buy again, and if it breaks, they take it to the LBS. Nothing wrong with this of course. I imagine people who hang out at car mechanics forums would have a good laugh me to taking my car in to have every little thing done! What? You don't change your own oil?!?!? It's simple!

rmfnla

It's not quite that simple.

The MTB craze ushered in click shifting, and Shimano's fishing reel experience gave them a huge leg up in that development.

FWIW, I was a die-hard Campy fan until I got into MTBs; then it was either go Shimano or go home.

The advantage of things like allen bolts over rivets is re-buildablity, always a Campy strength, but poor availability of spare parts tends to limit the advantage.

Of course, nobody compares to MAVIC for customer neglect...

WalksOn2Wheels

They've gone to a much different model now. They don't sell rebuild kits that I'm aware of, but you can order just the shifter body assemblies. And it's still not cheap.

Psimet2001 

...why do you want to lose money?

rpenmanparker 

Campy wasn't in fishing reels, but they made the switch. Not already knowing how to do something is why it is called R&D. Are you telling me that Suntour said, "We don't make fishing reels, so we don't know how to make indexed shifters, and will just have to go out of business?"

The early bike offerings from both Shimano and Suntour were copies of the European offerings. Shimano was in it for the long haul and made the necessary investment. Suntour did not. Once it wasn't about copying Campy, they were out of their depth.

rpenmanparker 

What I said before is sounding more and more correct. It is like pharmaceuticals. Americans are stupid and will pay higher prices so the manufacturers can give Europeans the lower prices they demand. They still make a tidy profit, but it is coming from America, not other places.

rmfnla

No, I am saying Shimano had a significant technological head start (and probably a much larger R&D budget) so Suntour was not able to remain competitive...

Dan333SP

You worked at a bike shop??

Inpd

Your channeling Donald Trump, but he's not dead!

surgeonstone

Oh really?

Sy Reene

So in theory, US companies like Nashbar and BikesDirect and CC who have their own brands, could be doing the same, and they just choose not to?