Hypno Toad

Last week I was on my first group ride with a new team. It was a group of over 20 riders on residential streets in Minneapolis and St Paul. A car was trying to pass the group, I ended up getting pushed to the parking lane as the car squeezed past a small number of riders. The bulk of the group comes to a 4-way stop, with the car right behind them, there are no other vehicles at the intersection. The lead riders come to a stop and move through, the rest of the group follow through The car blares the horn and then stops for an extended period with the small group behind him ... to "make a point". I'd love to see how happy this driver if every single rider stopped, one at a time. Made me think of this story from last year:
What Happens When Bicyclists Obey The Law? | Bicycling

I think it's odd, drivers typically are fine with me and my wife going through a stop sign at the same time (after stopping, of course). And if we are with our daughter and boyfriend, the four of use will go through an intersection as one. But get a larger group of riders, and people get pissed off when you operate as "one vehicle". I don't get it. Should a city bus make a complete stop for each passenger on the bus?

BTW - The team is firm on stopping at red lights and stop signs (part of why I joined this team).

WhyFi

Oh well - ******** are out there. Over the weekend, I pulled a very safe, respectful Idaho stop at a 4-way stop in a quiet neighborhood (also in the TC) and some dude stuffing his mouth with a pastry, outside of the corner bakery, called out "nice stop!" as I pulled away. Whaddaya gonna do?

PepeM

Driver in being a jerk to cyclists shocker.

Hypno Toad

Right, I know... I'm just *****ing. Plus the Bicycling article was re-posted on Facebook and brought this back to mind.

Hot Potato

Driver wasn't upset about how the stop sign was handled. Driver was upset cyclists were in the way.

prathmann

Agreed. I usually roll through stop signs if there's no conflicting traffic. But I've gotten more horn honks and angry yells from drivers for coming to a stop than I have for failing to do so.

kbarch

Why should bicycles be allowed to form a train if cars can't? It's pretty irritating when two or three cars tailgate each other at a turn as the light turns red, too - especially when it turns out that the street they're turning onto isn't clear for them.

With a small number - maybe four, six bikes tops - it doesn't make a difference, but any more than that and it starts to look like the Wild Bunch taking over. Even if they stay totally in line, a group of twenty riders is like an invasion and maybe some drivers are afraid they'll start making their own rules - like deciding to block an intersection just so they don't get split up.

What garners the most honking and yelling where I ride are the folks who don't ride single file. Heck, it annoys ME to look up the paceline and see some guy hanging out three feet to the left of everyone else when we're riding along a narrow road; if nothing else, it means someone's going to be yelling "car back!"

Greatestalltime

Many drivers simply can't relate to riding a bike on busy streets and all
the factors that go into that. Most bikers, however, can relate to driving on the streets with bikes.

Its all some misguided jealousy about someone getting something they aren't. My message to these drivers is "**** off"

Sy Reene

Actually at times, our group rides will double-up at an intersection, just so we are only eg. 4-6 rows deep, rather than 8-12 etc.. and then revert to single file once thru.

gregf83 

Yes, it's often safer and better for everyone if you ride in a tight two-up group. The cars have a shorter group to pass and they have to wait until the opposite lane is clear.

We always ride through intersections as a group and have never heard any complaints. Seems like the logical thing to do.

Hypno Toad

Sy Reene & gregf83 responded before I could:

The other option for the honking driver in my story... wait behind as each rider makes a complete stop, and goes one-at-time (see the linked story in OP). There were no other vehicles at this intersection, so the group going as one only made life easier for this driver. Does that make sense?

I will express some understanding of kbarch's point. Almost exactly a year ago, I had a similar experience (group ride and honking driver). The difference last year, I was with a group of in experienced, undisciplined riders on a brewery tour, this group was stretched out and blocked cross traffic at a 4-way stop. I didn't like being a part of that group. Last week, the group of riders was taking the space of a city bus, there was no other traffic, only the one pissy driver in the middle of our group. This group had stopped and yield right of way at 4-ways, especially to help drivers get ahead of the group so they wouldn't be behind us. I joined this team because of the reputation for being respectful on the road.

BTW - whether its one rider or a wild pack, a narrow road requires a car to pass in the on-coming lane. Please don't not encourage gutter riding, that is very dangerous.

topflightpro

Did all the bicyclist come to a complete stop? If so, they followed the law.

Technically, if you come to a stop once, you don't have to stop again when you get up to the stop sign.

FullGas

which motor vehicle code allows this...?

in my state, every vehicle (which includes bicycles) entering a controlled 4-way intersection must stop its forward movement at the 'stop line,' yield ROW as dictated by the presence of other traffic, and then proceed.

hooCycles

I don't know why cyclists think that they should be given special privilege so that they are spared the inconveniences of riding in a group. If you don't want to adhere to the same road rules as a car, you shouldn't be given the rights of a car.

Of course there are laws that do this, but I don't agree with them.

Hypno Toad

This specific story has some details that you are missing, one group of roughly 30 riders and one SUV behind (in the middle) of the group - no other vehicles at the 4-way stop. Therefore, in this specific story, it is for the convenience of the person in the SUV - not the group of riders. If every rider in this group completes a stop one at a time, that SUV driver would have waited a lot longer.

Since it appears some are not taking the time to open the link in the OP; here is the video, embedded for your convenience.


Lastly, do people in cars adhere to the road rules? No, they do not, they break different rules than people on bikes. The vast majority of road users break one law or another. Speeding-related deaths nationwide account for nearly a third of all traffic fatalities each year, taking close to 10,000 lives. (source) Yet, nearly every driver speeds, including me. How many deaths have cyclists caused by rolling a stop sign as a group?

PepeM

If drivers don't adhere to the rules of the road (giving the full lane to bicycles, for example) then they should not expect the same privileges as the other users of the road. See, it goes both ways.

Cyclists going through a stop together is far more convenient for everyone involved, not just for the cyclists.

hooCycles

Don't rely on a driver to 'give' you the full lane. Take it for yourself. The reason that cars are passing you in the right lane is that you aren't using the majority of the lane, not because they think that the lane it 'theirs'.

PepeM

Way to completely miss the point. As for the last part, do you really think there are no drivers out there who think the lane is theirs? Must not ride much outside.

hooCycles

I saw the video way back when it was newsworthy.

Anyway, there is a difference between not adhering to a law that applies to all road users (speeding) and having a law written in the books that favors bicycles over cars. I exceeded the speed limit on a certain road every day of my commute last summer on my bike, but if I was out driving sports cars with 20 of my buddies and we tried to pull the 'one stop' deal, it wouldn't go over so well even if the SUV behind us had to wait a minute. The idea of fairness is very important when it comes to public goods and I don't believe that any special privileges should be given to anyone.

Probably none. Rather, the question is 'How many deaths have cyclists suffered by rolling a stop sign as a group?' I value the lives of cyclists just as much as the lives of other road users.

In this case the convenience of the cyclists and SUV happened to align, but let's not pretend that cyclists perform the 'one stop' tactic out of some altruistic motivation.

woodcraft

This deserves a free membership in 'Collisions R Us"

hooCycles

Of course I do not think that there are not drivers who think that the lane is theirs. But to think that any significant amount of drivers think so is silly. Cyclists love to paint themselves as a victimized minority group.

WhyFi

In what case(s) would a group stop not be convenient for both the group of riders and the motorists?

hooCycles

For the guy on the intersection perpendicular to the cyclists' direction of travel who has to wait for all the cyclists to pass the intersection. Normally he would only have to wait for one car before it was his turn to go.

PepeM

What is 'significant' is, of course, up to interpretation. But you're again missing the point so I will spell it out for you.

This is what you said:

Here you are making the assumption, whether you realize or not, that the roads inherently belong to cars. Therefore, if bicycles want to share those same roads and those same rights, then they should adhere to the same rules. But that is not true; the roads do not belong to the cars, they belong to all users and all of them get the same rights whether they adhere to the rules or not. Now, if you think cyclists who go through stops together as a group don't deserve the same rights, then I can as easily suggest that drivers who do not give the full lane to cyclists, or who speed, as you admit you do, do not deserve the same rights either. I would, of course, never do that because I believe all road users deserve the same rights.

As for laws 'favoring' cyclists (since you didn't specify, I'm assuming you're referring to some law that allows riders to go through a stop sign together, or maybe the Idaho law,) those laws are not really there to 'favor' anyone, but to make things work better for everyone. A group of cyclists going through a stop sign together is certainly better for everyone, so if a driver feels he is being treated 'unfairly,' oh well.

One person wait about five seconds more. Everyone else has to wait considerably less time. Sounds like a good trade-off to me.

WhyFi

So what kind of a difference are we talking about? A 5-second stop vs a 15-second stop? If there are additional drivers behind that perpendicular driver, then what happens as far as a collective benefit/inconvenience? I would say that there are very, very few cases where a group stop is, collectively, more inconvenient for all others at the intersection, and in those few instances, the amount of additional inconvenience pretty small.