bikebreak

swapped a -6 to -17 stem on a 5mm spacer. being lower feels GREAT on descents and for short rides.
over 50 miles I am getting some lower back pain and shoulder and upper arm soreness.

maybe reach is a bit long for me now? or maybe too low for my flexibility?

video from right
https://youtu.be/JaFg2SZuDtU

from left
https://youtu.be/yqmv2cSCZMA

saddle view - my back is real tight on the lower left, right after a 53 mile ride
https://youtu.be/OOGkJvKLAj0'

constructive feedback is welcome, thanks

Bike Gremlin

I think saddle is a bit too much towards the rear.

bike fitting

shoota 

Agreed. And a bit too high, your hips are rocking pretty badly. That link promotes KOPS (look it up) and while it's an OK starting point don't live and die by it. Many people do much better with their knee in front of the pedal spindle, me included.

(btw edit out the apostrophe in the last link, it's breaking it)

Bike Gremlin

It notes KOPS as a starting point. From then it's a trial and error. Some move forward, some further back - depending on riding style and rider's body.

Moving the saddle forward for a few cm will also make reach to the pedals shorter, so the hip rocking will probably be eliminated, without lowering the seat post at all. I'd start with just moving the saddle forward.

shoota 

Is that not what I said?

deapee

Your hips are rocking pretty fiercely. But I think they did that in your last video a while back too. Can you try not letting your hips move and pedaling at maybe 200 watts -- looks like you're REALLY mashing, which I think might be throwing it off, not sure. Just my thoughts.

ypsetihw

your hips are rocking a lot in your pedal stroke, saddle just a tad too high?

also, changing the angle of the stem and stack height to make the position lower will also make it a longer reach, you might need a slightly shorter stem to keep the same reach.

GeoKrpan

Too much bend in the knees at the bottom of the pedal stroke. The saddle needs to be higher.

Icculus21

I'm no pro fitter, but it also looked to me that you're rocking too much. You're reach also looks a little far, but only you can be the true judge of that based on feel.

goenrdoug

another vote for moving your saddle forward about an inch.

redlude97

It looks like in your lowest comfortable back position your arms are still not at 90 degrees in either the drops or the hoods so I would say your reach and drop are too low.

Doge

What kind of watts you putting out in your ideal position and how much do you weigh?

Ditto on the saddle - move forward.
Normally when you move the saddle forward you would raise it. You should not raise it.

Sy Reene

Be wary of saddle height when moving forward. I've pointed this out before; moving forward a saddle, depending on the rail angles for some saddles, also lifts the saddle.. which may or may not be neutral to distance from the crank. Only if your rails are parallel to the seat surface, does it mean that moving your saddle forward or backward would add or decrease distance to the crank.
eg. a Fizik antares rails look like below. Sliding forward within the clamp means the saddle is also going up.

f4rrest

Hips rocking.

If saddle isn't too high, then your hamstrings are too tight, and your core is too weak.

With these problems, dropping the bar is going to kill your back due to the rocking motion.

Put the bar back up and stretch for a few weeks.

bikebreak

Thanks, strava estimates my watts at 220-230 average over a whole ride. ~144 pounds/65kg ie 3.5 w/kg

I find when I want to put I more power I scoot way back on the saddle and get my back low. maybe I am just avoiding air resistance and actually reducing my output...

bikebreak

you nailed it, my hams are tight and my core is weak.
I used to do some regular core work but after a fall and shoulder separation last winter the exercises got very painful and I got out of the habit

Doge

Reason I ask is not eWang. Power takes weight off your arms, more power takes more weight off your arms. Leaning over puts more weight on your arms. So regardless of what you can do, it is what you do do. I think (opinion) that other than being too far back and saddle high (just right when you move forward) that your lean is about right for that power/weight. Note your stem also looks long now and line from eyes seems like you do/almost do see the front hub behind the bar. Moving forward will help that too. You can and should move on the saddle fore and aft for different power assaults. While I agree with the comments on rocking, we had a multi-time elite and masters national champion riding locally (SoCal - we got those) that road with leg lock and rocked every stroke.

16 Tons

A lot looks like you try to find the seat, but also the rocking looks very over exaggerated. Go watch some videos on basic riding form. Any movement that doesn't translate to power is wasted energy.

You should get fitted too.

f4rrest

Unfortunately, I know from first-hand experience with a few unfortunate injuries like yours.

If front planks are painful due to your shoulder, you can plank without arms by placing a foam roller under your chest (and under your ankles too, if you have a foot injury).

If side planks are painful, you can try standing isometric pulls on a cable machine-- to the side or vertically. You just stand there and hold the cable without moving.

For the back, you can do straight leg reverse planks with feet up on a bench and shoulderblades on the ground (surprisingly, this also increases my hamstring flexibility, even though it's not stretching).

If you have a cable machine or bands, you can do glute medius and maximus and standing hamstrings stuff without involving your shoulder at all. Plus doing 1 leg at a time without holding anything also works your core.

Carbonfiberboy 

I think your fit is fine. You look like a cyclist, not a person on a bicycle. You could have 1cm less reach, but where you are works well for many. Your legs and feet look good. What's causing the back problem is the rocking hips.

Yes, hips rock but unlikely because of saddle height. Yours looks good. In your case it's pedaling dynamics. I would say stretch and work on one legged pedaling. My stretches:
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...l#post15372967
Try pedaling one-legged at moderate effort, very low cadence, say 50-55, for 2 minute intervals. Then try pedaling at 80-85, very low effort, 2 minutes. When you can do many of those intervals, your lower back will probably be much better.

Try to pedal with no upper body movement at all. Start with lower effort until you have it there, then gradually increase the effort. You'll find that you have to pedal all around the circle. Not pulling up in back, but unweighting and not particularly pushing down in front. Push forward to top, pull back at bottom. Just make your feet go around. At moderate effort, it helps to pretend that you have glass in the bottoms of your shoes.

Fiery

Your knee flexion at the bottom of the stroke is around 35 degrees and you are dropping your heels a little. You are pushing yourself back in the saddle and your knee is noticeably behind KOPS (a guideline, not a rule, yadda, yadda). These would indicate that your saddle is too low and possibly too far back.

Hip rocking is exaggerated on the stationary trainer (the bike can't move under you, so you move on it more), but it also indicates some stability issues. You are also dropping the right hip. This could indicate a saddle that's too high and some leg length discrepancy, but it could also just be poor functionality and technique. All this together with your knees tracking wider than your feet, points to some issues that would best be resolved with the help of a good fitter rather than experimenting by yourself. If you can't get to a good fitter, I would try setting the saddle so that you get KOPS while still having the 35 degree flexion at the bottom of the stroke, and see how that feels. This might not bee the perfect position for you, but it's a good default to reset to.

Regarding the front end, the thing that really jumps out to me is how long the reach is, and how the drop is fairly moderate despite the -17 stem and low spacer stack. I think that frame is at least a size too big for you. A shorter stem and/or a shorter reach bar could be a good thing to try first. Something like a Deda RHM01 or a FSA Vero Compact handlebar plus one or more Kalloy UNO stems would be quite affordable to test out.

allen254

That bike may be a size to big for you and you don't look very comfortable on the bike,, also the reach on that bike is not for you the saddle way back, your ass should be as closer to the BB so that your bottom so stretched out.

yamsyamsyams

To me I agree with most what others said - it looks like your reach is too stretched out, hips rocking.

Also, looks like you're sitting pretty far back on the saddle - not sure if moving the saddle forward would help this, seems like a habit correction more than anything based off of what you've said about having a tendency to scoot back.

bikebreak

Thanks, this is useful

bikebreak

I've never done KOPS, I've always been a little behind as I find it helps me push the pedal over the top and pull back at the bottom and to balance better. When my shoulder got separated I was about 3cm behind my current position with a short high stem to take pressure off my arms.

I tend to scoot back to get aero, this may be a flexibility issue - as I move my hips backwards, it is easier to bend my back forward at the hips while keeping my back flat. It makes sense to me, standing up I have to scoot my hips back to bend at the hips too.
I actually found when I recently moved my seat forward a cm was my back bent more and was harder to get it flat.

My drop to hoods is not huge, but I ride in drops a lot and my bars are regular 145mm drop and not compact, so I'm pretty low compared to guys who slam their bars down and ride on the hoods all the time.

The bike is one size too big, it's a 53 Lemond and I should be on 51. That would be 1 cm shorter, head tube 1.5cm lower, and .8 degrees steeper seat tube. Not a huge difference but a difference.

If anyone has a Lemond Tete de Course frame in 51cm I'm happy to trade.