Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Riding, muscle mass, and hormones? Long post!

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Riding, muscle mass, and hormones? Long post!

Old 06-16-16, 10:07 AM
  #51  
Senior Member
 
woodcraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 6,016
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 923 Times in 569 Posts
Originally Posted by OBoile
You and I are very different people apparently.

I might have seen you working out as I passed through the gym on the way to the spin class.

For me, a useful measure is current weight vs. weight in high school (+ 5lbs)
woodcraft is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 10:17 AM
  #52  
serious cyclist
 
Bah Humbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 21,147

Bikes: S1, R2, P2

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9334 Post(s)
Liked 3,679 Times in 2,026 Posts
Originally Posted by woodcraft
I might have seen you working out as I passed through the gym on the way to the spin class.

For me, a useful measure is current weight vs. weight in high school (+ 5lbs)
Lighter than I ever was in high school. (-15lbs)

Now, if I had only done anything right in high school, health-wise...
Bah Humbug is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 10:23 AM
  #53  
Senior Member
 
Shuffleman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,296

Bikes: Colnago CLX,GT Karakoram,Giant Revel, Kona Honk_ Tonk

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by grolby
So you're saying that these people have a system for evaluating T levels that just happens to vastly expand the pool of candidates for androgenic hormone replacement therapy? Sounds legit.
+1 to that.
Originally Posted by dvdslw
So riding a bike and not eating steak is turning me into a girl?
As if the tight spandex were not enough.
Originally Posted by PepeM
Buy a muscle car. Or a Harley. Or a Pinarello
Now this is some great advice. Especially the Muscle Car. I have been begging my wife for one for years. I thought that I had tried every angle before but maybe this breathes life into that dream.
Shuffleman is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 11:02 AM
  #54  
serious cyclist
 
Bah Humbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 21,147

Bikes: S1, R2, P2

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9334 Post(s)
Liked 3,679 Times in 2,026 Posts
Originally Posted by Shuffleman
Now this is some great advice. Especially the Muscle Car. I have been begging my wife for one for years. I thought that I had tried every angle before but maybe this breathes life into that dream.
I've informed the girl that sometime in my 40s I'll be picking up a Ferrari 360.
Bah Humbug is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 12:02 PM
  #55  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked 325 Times in 204 Posts
Originally Posted by woodcraft
I might have seen you working out as I passed through the gym on the way to the spin class.

For me, a useful measure is current weight vs. weight in high school (+ 5lbs)
Yeah, I'm +40 lbs and wouldn't mind if it was more.
OBoile is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 01:17 PM
  #56  
Senior Member
 
Dunbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,079

Bikes: Roubaix SL4 Expert , Cervelo S2

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by dvdslw
The main reason to consider NOT doing it is once you start replacing testosterone by way of injections, creme's, or the patch, your body will see that as a reason to stop producing it naturally and once it stops producing the hormone it doesn't start back up again. So anyone opting for replacement should be prepared to take it for the rest of their life.
Is this really true? If you stop taking T your body won't (eventually) rebound to baseline levels of testosterone production? I think it's more likely that once your age-related testosterone levels start to decline they won't ever get back up to 'normal' levels without supplementation. Wasn't there also some studies showing testosterone supplementation was linked to an increased risk of heart attack? That seemed to coincide with a huge dropoff in the number of commercials being broadcast for the "low T" drugs.

I listen to the Joe Rogan podcast and he says that he doesn't know why every guy over the age of the 45 isn't on testosterone therapy.

Last edited by Dunbar; 06-16-16 at 01:21 PM.
Dunbar is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 02:41 PM
  #57  
Senior Member
 
TexMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,602

Bikes: Ridley Noah fast, Colnago CLX,Giant Propel Advanced, Pinnerello Gogma 65.1, Specialized S-works Venge, CAADX,Cervelo S3

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by dvdslw
I used to run a little back in my school days and enjoyed it but I had a torn meniscus a few years back that has made me scared to run. Although about a month ago my son and I were walking down Daytona Beach and he challenged me to a race where I showed him that his old dad can still move. Felt pretty good!
Nice. 2-6 miles/week just to keep the bones strong
TexMac is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 04:11 PM
  #58  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Apopka, Florida
Posts: 1,476

Bikes: Santa Cruz Stigmata

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked 30 Times in 20 Posts
Originally Posted by Dunbar
Is this really true? If you stop taking T your body won't (eventually) rebound to baseline levels of testosterone production? I think it's more likely that once your age-related testosterone levels start to decline they won't ever get back up to 'normal' levels without supplementation. Wasn't there also some studies showing testosterone supplementation was linked to an increased risk of heart attack? That seemed to coincide with a huge dropoff in the number of commercials being broadcast for the "low T" drugs.

I listen to the Joe Rogan podcast and he says that he doesn't know why every guy over the age of the 45 isn't on testosterone therapy.
The JAMA study found that those men in the group who took testosterone replacement therapy had a 30% increase in risk of stroke and heart attack vs. men in the group who did not do TRT. Other side effects of testosterone therapy can include sleep apnea, acne, and gynecomastia – male breast enlargement.
While there is little evidence of any link between testosterone therapy and prostate cancer, some physicians believe the issue is still on the table – and urge patients getting TRT to check their PSA levels once or twice a year.
Another study, published in the New England Journal of American, examined the effect of testosterone gel in men 65 and older. It was discontinued when participants experienced cardiac, respiratory, and skin problems. Many did, however, experience an increase in muscle strength before the study was halted.
Here’s the worst thing about TRT: using a testosterone patch, pill, gel, or injection for even just a couple of weeks can shut down the natural testosterone-producing actions of your pituitary gland, hypothalamus, and gonads. Your body stops making testosterone, and your testicles decrease in size. And the longer you stay on testosterone replacement therapy, the more difficult it is for your body to resume natural testosterone production should you ever stop using TRT. Yikes!
dvdslw is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 04:56 PM
  #59  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,719
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 258 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by originalgee
And here I am spending tons of money trying to lower my t levels for a gender change and I could have done the same riding more miles?.... I'll have to talk to my endocrinologist and see what he says

ltxi is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 05:53 PM
  #60  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: SW ONTARIO
Posts: 525

Bikes: P1 Domane Di2, SLR Emonda Di2, Trek Farley 9 Fatbike

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
All you need is a 25 year old girlfriend, fix you right up. You'll find all that energy and more
Up North is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 06:01 PM
  #61  
VNA
Senior Member
 
VNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 870
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by dvdslw
The JAMA study found that those men in the group who took testosterone replacement therapy had a 30% increase in risk of stroke and heart attack vs. men in the group who did not do TRT. Other side effects of testosterone therapy can include sleep apnea, acne, and gynecomastia – male breast enlargement.
While there is little evidence of any link between testosterone therapy and prostate cancer, some physicians believe the issue is still on the table – and urge patients getting TRT to check their PSA levels once or twice a year.
Another study, published in the New England Journal of American, examined the effect of testosterone gel in men 65 and older. It was discontinued when participants experienced cardiac, respiratory, and skin problems. Many did, however, experience an increase in muscle strength before the study was halted.
Here’s the worst thing about TRT: using a testosterone patch, pill, gel, or injection for even just a couple of weeks can shut down the natural testosterone-producing actions of your pituitary gland, hypothalamus, and gonads. Your body stops making testosterone, and your testicles decrease in size. And the longer you stay on testosterone replacement therapy, the more difficult it is for your body to resume natural testosterone production should you ever stop using TRT. Yikes!
The very few studies until now have been performed with small groups who were not in great health to begin with.
Also it is obvious that if you don't take the appropriate amount, side effects that you describe will occur.
VNA is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 06:02 PM
  #62  
~>~
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: TX Hill Country
Posts: 5,932
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1112 Post(s)
Liked 180 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by Up North
All you need is a 25 year old girlfriend, fix you right up.
Those are Hookers, not "Girlfriends" for this BF demographic, for which there are other health related concerns.....

-Bandera
Bandera is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 06:18 PM
  #63  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,719
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 258 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Up North
All you need is a 25 year old girlfriend, fix you right up. You'll find all that energy and more
I last tried that in '86, when I was 43 years old. She seemed so nice. Thirty years later, come September, we're still stuck with each other.

Last edited by ltxi; 06-17-16 at 03:47 PM.
ltxi is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 06:22 PM
  #64  
Senior Member
 
woodcraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 6,016
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 923 Times in 569 Posts
Originally Posted by OBoile
Yeah, I'm +40 lbs and wouldn't mind if it was more.

Oh, you were the guy who sailed past me on the descent!
woodcraft is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 06:26 PM
  #65  
Senior Member
 
woodcraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 6,016
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 923 Times in 569 Posts
Originally Posted by VNA
The very few studies until now have been performed with small groups who were not in great health to begin with.
Also it is obvious that if you don't take the appropriate amount, side effects that you describe will occur.

So you're saying that few and inadequate have been done?
woodcraft is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 07:56 PM
  #66  
VNA
Senior Member
 
VNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 870
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by woodcraft
So you're saying that few and inadequate have been done?
Too few and too small yes, inadequate no--the studies that have been done were far from a full representation of patients taking hormone replacements.
The samples/studies cannot be used as a definitive answer--although there is presently one being conducted with a much larger group but will take sometime to draw more accurate answers.
And again the side effects that you mentioned for the most part are due to an inappropriate or excessive amount administered.

Also think of all the cyclists that have been taking this very drug (illegaly) without dropping dead on the road!

Last edited by VNA; 06-16-16 at 08:03 PM.
VNA is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 09:43 PM
  #67  
Farmer tan
 
f4rrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 7,986

Bikes: Allez, SuperSix Evo

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2870 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by OBoile
When you consume an excess of calories, your body will build both muscle and fat with the leftover calories. If you don't lift weights (or something similar) your body will build mostly fat. Lifting weights will signal to your body that you need build more muscle, so the ratio of muscle to fat built becomes more favourable (similarly when you diet, you lose both, but again lifting will signal your body to preserve as much muscle as possible). However, as someone else said, there is a limit to how much muscle you can build no matter what, so you don't want to consume too many excess calories as beyond a certain point, everything extra becomes fat.

Just curious, what was your routine? I saw you mention 3 sets of 8 to failure but what actual exercises were you doing? Were you training your legs? If not, you really should be. That is where most of your muscle mass is, so if you want to build muscle that is the key. Cycling is good, but it doesn't really provide the same muscle building stimulus that heavy squats do (unless you're doing something like track sprints). Also, training to failure is probably not a good idea. 1. At that point, your form breaks down and you have increased risk of injury. 2. It is much harder to recover from a set to failure than it is from a set where you stop 2 reps short of failure, but the benefits aren't all that different (so essentially the cost/benefit ratio isn't all that good from a recovery perspective). That doesn't mean you don't train hard, just that you don't push every set as hard as you possibly can (just like you don't ride as hard as you can every time on the bike).
True.
f4rrest is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 09:57 PM
  #68  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cowan Heights, CA
Posts: 977

Bikes: Wizard, Eisentraut, Paramount, Litton, Turner, Surley, Trek, Kona, Landshark, Hujsak, Masi, Tesch, Holland, Retrotec, Spectrum

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
I had testicular cancer at 26, one nut and T levels at the very bottom of normal since then, 55 now. I eat right, ride 8-10 hours/week, paddle occasionally, hike fairly regularly, and have no issues in the bedroom....or any other room. Eating right is lots of fruits and veggies, grains, and meat for me. No strict program, just paying attention. I'm a top third person on Strava in a very competitive market. Good genes help. I'd be lighter and faster if I didn't like beer....

Based on what I've read, T therapy is largely quackery. Look at your diet and other habits.
PeregrineA1 is offline  
Old 06-16-16, 10:03 PM
  #69  
Senior Member
 
woodcraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 6,016
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 923 Times in 569 Posts
Originally Posted by PeregrineA1
I had testicular cancer at 26, one nut and T levels at the very bottom of normal since then, 55 now. I eat right, ride 8-10 hours/week, paddle occasionally, hike fairly regularly, and have no issues in the bedroom....or any other room. Eating right is lots of fruits and veggies, grains, and meat for me. No strict program, just paying attention. I'm a top third person on Strava in a very competitive market. Good genes help. I'd be lighter and faster if I didn't like beer....

Based on what I've read, T therapy is largely quackery. Look at your diet and other habits.



Certainly no issues in the bike room!
woodcraft is offline  
Old 06-17-16, 04:01 AM
  #70  
Voice of the Industry
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Up North
All you need is a 25 year old girlfriend, fix you right up. You'll find all that energy and more
A girl that likes to rock is a big fountain of youth...that and some blue pills.
Campag4life is offline  
Old 06-17-16, 03:48 PM
  #71  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,719
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 258 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Campag4life
A girl that likes to rock is a big fountain of youth...that and some blue pills.
Tan...the blue ones don't last long enough.
ltxi is offline  
Old 06-18-16, 03:30 PM
  #72  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 179

Bikes: 2008 Trek 2.1

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by dvdslw
The JAMA study found that those men in the group who took testosterone replacement therapy had a 30% increase in risk of stroke and heart attack vs. men in the group who did not do TRT. Other side effects of testosterone therapy can include sleep apnea, acne, and gynecomastia – male breast enlargement.
While there is little evidence of any link between testosterone therapy and prostate cancer, some physicians believe the issue is still on the table – and urge patients getting TRT to check their PSA levels once or twice a year.
Another study, published in the New England Journal of American, examined the effect of testosterone gel in men 65 and older. It was discontinued when participants experienced cardiac, respiratory, and skin problems. Many did, however, experience an increase in muscle strength before the study was halted.
Here’s the worst thing about TRT: using a testosterone patch, pill, gel, or injection for even just a couple of weeks can shut down the natural testosterone-producing actions of your pituitary gland, hypothalamus, and gonads. Your body stops making testosterone, and your testicles decrease in size. And the longer you stay on testosterone replacement therapy, the more difficult it is for your body to resume natural testosterone production should you ever stop using TRT. Yikes!
What's your source that those functions don't return to normal when you quit TRT?

Also, why would you ever quit TRT anyway? The reason a person goes on it is because their testosterone production is low, so who cares if the body stops producing it. You're already ****ed and TRT helps you not be ****ed. Obviously you'll lose its benefits once you quit it.
Emperor Ryker is offline  
Old 06-18-16, 03:31 PM
  #73  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 179

Bikes: 2008 Trek 2.1

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by PeregrineA1
I had testicular cancer at 26, one nut and T levels at the very bottom of normal since then, 55 now. I eat right, ride 8-10 hours/week, paddle occasionally, hike fairly regularly, and have no issues in the bedroom....or any other room. Eating right is lots of fruits and veggies, grains, and meat for me. No strict program, just paying attention. I'm a top third person on Strava in a very competitive market. Good genes help. I'd be lighter and faster if I didn't like beer....

Based on what I've read, T therapy is largely quackery. Look at your diet and other habits.
What's quackery is you thinking you can solve low testosterone issues with a better diet. And what were you reading? Naturopath Weekly?
Emperor Ryker is offline  
Old 06-18-16, 04:00 PM
  #74  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,517
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 3 Posts
I haven't read all the replies but:

1. What kind of lifting program are you on? If you are not working a specific program I would recommend Wendler 531 or Starting Strength to set a base line and make sure you are training effectively

2. Like others said, low fat = bad. Fat = energy. You do want a certain amount of protein if you are strength training and carbs but add more fat from good sources like coconut oil, coconut milk, avocados, olive oil, wild salmon, grass fed beef, grass fed butter, eggs etc

3. I did some serious research on TRT a couple of years ago. It is a big commitment and expense. Most legitimate doctors wont' prescribe it and insurance won't pay for it unless you are a teen or in your 20s and have the testosterone level of a 80 year old man. I do believe that most of us in our late 30's and older can benefit from more testosterone but it's expensive without insurance. Most of the clinics are total rip offs. I found the best option would be the black/grey market. Testosterone is an anabolic steroid and unfortunately I found that it would be much more affordable going through the same sources that body builders and guys at the gym go. I don't condone that because of legalities and in the end I decided not to pursue that because of that and as you said commitment to never stopping because your body will stop producing it's own
rms13 is offline  
Old 06-18-16, 06:31 PM
  #75  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cowan Heights, CA
Posts: 977

Bikes: Wizard, Eisentraut, Paramount, Litton, Turner, Surley, Trek, Kona, Landshark, Hujsak, Masi, Tesch, Holland, Retrotec, Spectrum

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Emperor Ryker
What's quackery is you thinking you can solve low testosterone issues with a better diet. And what were you reading? Naturopath Weekly?
Not in the least. I'm saying that low T, in the normal range-even at the very bottom, does not mean one needs to resort to T therapy. If one were to follow the advice of the "clinics" one would be signing up and looking for miracles. There are many "Doctors", licensed yes, that are looking for a dollar, not best interest of the patient.

I am saying that one can be a respectable athlete, have a great sex life, and all that comes with those things at the lowest of low end T. I attribute a good part of that to a healthy diet. Note am I am by no means a vegan, a teetotaler, or anything of that ilk.

i am sceptacle of claims made by some regarding various solutions to problems, real or imagined. In other words, there are many things to examine before T therapy is accepted as a solution.

Last edited by PeregrineA1; 06-18-16 at 06:37 PM. Reason: Content
PeregrineA1 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.