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Riding, muscle mass, and hormones? Long post!

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Riding, muscle mass, and hormones? Long post!

Old 06-15-16, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mcours2006
Four and a half months isn't enough time, especially if you are not consistent with you lifting program. A diet higher in fat will help. It also helps with the absorption of protein.

you could try cutting down on mileage and see if makes a difference. You may be feeling tired just because you're riding too much.
I was thinking the same way, cutting back the miles on the bike might help me achieve the lifting goals I'm after. Those four months I worked out, I did stick with the program and it really included a solid month beforehand lifting light just to get my form down and gradually got to where I was doing 3 sets of 8 to failure. Tried mixing it up a bit in the last month but my arms were killing me and though I risked long term injury so I stopped to heal which is where I am now. I know the old saying "no pain no gain" but it was affecting my sleep. That combined with riding a couple days a week in the Florida heat plus working in a 100+ degree shop all day for work just wore me out and probably why I didn't see the gains I was expecting.

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Old 06-15-16, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dvdslw
Anyway, this is what's on my mind this morning and was hoping to hear from anyone else who may have come to the same or different conclusions. At the end of the day, I'm hoping to improve my quality of life from here on out and keep up with my two young boys (9 and 12) who keep me busy. My doctor says I'm normal so I guess I'll just make due with what I've got for now. I know this might be a sensitive topic for some but would appreciate anyone sharing their experiences if any on this topic.
I study nutrition for strength sports and bodybuilding.

Just from reading your post, you are probably not eating enough dietary fat. Eating low fat is extremely unhealthy, as your body needs fats to survive. You should be getting AT LEAST 30% of your daily calories from fat. Ideally fats with low amounts of Omega 6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (avoid all vegetable oils such as canola, corn, soybean oils). Healthy fat sources include salmon, beef, olive oil, coconut oil, avocados, real butter, and macadamia nuts. If you don't eat fish regularly, supplement with fish oil to help achieve omega 3 balance.

Also, proper sleep is extremely important for your hormone levels. Do whatever it takes to get adequate rest constantly. If that means less time cycling, then so be it.

Do NOT start T replacement therapy, unless you have exhausted all other possible causes of your low performance. You are way too young to be taking steroids.

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Old 06-15-16, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dvdslw
Those looking to size up should keep their rides short and hard.
That's what she said....how did we get this many responses without someone saying it?
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Old 06-15-16, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by link0
I study nutrition for strength sports and bodybuilding.

Just from reading your post, you are probably not eating enough dietary fat. Eating low fat is extremely unhealthy, as your body needs fats to survive. You should be getting AT LEAST 30% of your daily calories from fat. Ideally fats with low amounts of Omega 6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (avoid all vegetable oils such as canola, corn, soybean oils). Healthy fat sources include salmon, beef, olive oil, coconut oil, avocados, real butter, and macadamia nuts. If you don't eat fish regularly, supplement with fish oil to help achieve omega 3 balance.

Also, proper sleep is extremely important for your hormone levels. Do whatever it takes to get adequate rest constantly. If that means less time cycling, then so be it.

Do NOT start T replacement therapy, unless you have exhausted all other possible causes of your low performance. You are way too young to be taking steroids.
Good info, thanks! I'm a bit surprised to be honest about the 30% fat daily intake. We do all of our cooking with olive oil here at home and while eating out do my best to make smart choices staying away from the deep fried stuff. Yeah, I do cheat here and there but stay strict for the most part. Love fish, especially salmon and cod but the rest of the family hates it so it doesn't appear on our plates as often as I'd like but also take 720mg of omega 3's daily (2 x 1,200mg pills).

I think the whole T replacement thing appealed to me because the Bioidentical doctors that push it really make it look like the cure all for us guys heading into middle age. I'm going focus my attention to proper diet and sleep habits for now. I never thought of testosterone replacement as steroids but that is in essence exactly what it is, crazy!
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Old 06-15-16, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pacalolo
That's what she said....how did we get this many responses without someone saying it?
Thought about it as I was typing it out but hey, what's wrong with a chuckle here and there?
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Old 06-15-16, 02:34 PM
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Lyle McDonald is a good resource for what you're after.
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Old 06-15-16, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dvdslw
Good morning all, I was inspired to ask a few questions to the 41 after reading a thread started today about weight lifting. For background, I'm a mid 40's male, 6'5, 225lbs, and consider myself to be in decent shape for my age compared to just about every other guy I know or see in my age group thanks in part to cycling and watching what I eat. At this point in my life I'm beginning to feel what I believe to be the decline of my muscle mass, energy levels, and other age related declines of a man my age so back in November I decided to start weight lifting to see if that would help get me back to feeling normal again.

I went out and bought a complete home gym system plus free weights to begin a weight lifting program and stuck to it for 4 solid months doing a high weight/low rep routine with little to no improvements in strength or size. I was on a high protein low fat diet, took the full array of supplements, vitamins, and protein shakes timed as recommended by a nutritionist but all I ended up with was sore muscles and a hard time sleeping because of them. So what gives? I remember as a young man working out with some friends and it seemed we could just eat pizza, half ass work out for a while and see results almost immediately. What's changed?

I started doing some online research and came to the conclusion that my testosterone levels may be low and made an appointment to see my physician with special instructions to get a full blood panel to see what my levels were. Come to find out I'm normal for my age group so no worries but I still wanted some answers and kept digging which led me to research local Bioidentical Hormone Doctors and see what they have to offer. That opened up a new door to re-evaluate what is considered a normal testosterone level for a particular age group and my "normal" is half that of a 20 year old male and the bottom of normal for an 80 year old male so according to them I'm low and replacement therapy is a viable option for me but there's trade offs with doing it.

So it seems Testosterone replacement is a magic shot that will make me feel younger, increase my muscle mass, increase my libido, strengthen my bones, the extra weight around my mid section will just melt away, so why not go out today and get started? The main reason to consider NOT doing it is once you start replacing testosterone by way of injections, creme's, or the patch, your body will see that as a reason to stop producing it naturally and once it stops producing the hormone it doesn't start back up again. So anyone opting for replacement should be prepared to take it for the rest of their life. It's quite costly especially without insurance so I just can't see beginning such a treatment plan unless my levels were completely gone. That leaves me wanting more for myself although reluctant to do anything about it.

Here's the kicker, endurance athletes like runners, swimmers, and cyclists tend to have lower T levels because the strain of the endurance activity actually depletes it plus for males turns some of the testosterone into estrogen that creates a whole different array of side effects like man boobs. So logging some long miles on the bike every week is counterproductive to anyone looking to bulk up in the gym or even keep what muscle size they have now and could lead to weaker bones earlier in life than those who don't partake in such activities. Those looking to size up should keep their rides short and hard.

Anyway, this is what's on my mind this morning and was hoping to hear from anyone else who may have come to the same or different conclusions. At the end of the day, I'm hoping to improve my quality of life from here on out and keep up with my two young boys (9 and 12) who keep me busy. My doctor says I'm normal so I guess I'll just make due with what I've got for now. I know this might be a sensitive topic for some but would appreciate anyone sharing their experiences if any on this topic.
I'll be your age next year
If you can, why not add some running to your routine to strengthen your bones? I lift twice a week mostly upper body and average10-13 hrs cycling. At 5 8' and weighing 165lbs, i'm okay with not wanting to add too much mass muscle but also wanting to get stronger on the bike.
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Old 06-15-16, 02:43 PM
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I don't really get the whole 'gains' thing.

Is this not basically just over-eating in hopes of having bulging muscles?

My GF's twenty yr old son was pounding the protein shakes, etc.,

& he started to look like the dough-boy.
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Old 06-15-16, 02:45 PM
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If my score had been 491, I would not be shooting T.
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Old 06-15-16, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by woodcraft
I don't really get the whole 'gains' thing.

Is this not basically just over-eating in hopes of having bulging muscles?

My GF's twenty yr old son was pounding the protein shakes, etc.,

& he started to look like the dough-boy.
I'm sure lots of people do this, and when they step on the scale they'll exclaim that they've gained ten pounds of muscle in four weeks.

One of the reasons it's difficult to gain muscle mass when you get older is because of lower T, but even as a 20 y/o, you're doing pretty good if you gained 200-300g of muscle mass in a month.
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Old 06-15-16, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
If my score had been 491, I would not be shooting T.
That's what I wanted to hear because these hormone doctors are quite misleading where they manipulate the numbers and get you thinking that a 491 is actually low. There's one chart that says I have the same level as an 80 year old man, and should be in the 900-1,200 range for optimal results. My post was more about curiosity and confirmation that I didn't need to explore that option as of yet. I don't think I'd be against it in the future if needed but believe I'm at an okay level for now.
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Old 06-15-16, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by woodcraft
I don't really get the whole 'gains' thing.
By gains I'm talking strictly muscle gains, not just dead weight gains. I was under the impression the one who would consume a weight gainer shake would expect that shake to feed the potential muscle they're looking to build, not get fatter. I also see now that there's a fine balance between too much gainer and not enough depending on the amount of work put in to ones training.
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Old 06-15-16, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TexMac
I'll be your age next year
If you can, why not add some running to your routine to strengthen your bones? I lift twice a week mostly upper body and average10-13 hrs cycling. At 5 8' and weighing 165lbs, i'm okay with not wanting to add too much mass muscle but also wanting to get stronger on the bike.
I used to run a little back in my school days and enjoyed it but I had a torn meniscus a few years back that has made me scared to run. Although about a month ago my son and I were walking down Daytona Beach and he challenged me to a race where I showed him that his old dad can still move. Felt pretty good!
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Old 06-15-16, 03:33 PM
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A Harvard expert shares his thoughts on testosterone-replacement therapy - Harvard Prostate Knowledge - Harvard Health Publications

Check this website that should be credible!
Your level is not that low from what I understand--for some who are having problems with the pituitary gland which controls several vital hormones is a must to replace testosterone, thyroxine etc.
You will know if it is so low with very achy muscles and joints, no energy, depressed, loss of muscle and bone mass, etc.
Go see couple different doctors, particularly an endocrinologist--good luck
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Old 06-15-16, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dvdslw
Good info, thanks! I'm a bit surprised to be honest about the 30% fat daily intake. We do all of our cooking with olive oil here at home and while eating out do my best to make smart choices staying away from the deep fried stuff. Yeah, I do cheat here and there but stay strict for the most part. Love fish, especially salmon and cod but the rest of the family hates it so it doesn't appear on our plates as often as I'd like but also take 720mg of omega 3's daily (2 x 1,200mg pills).

I think the whole T replacement thing appealed to me because the Bioidentical doctors that push it really make it look like the cure all for us guys heading into middle age. I'm going focus my attention to proper diet and sleep habits for now. I never thought of testosterone replacement as steroids but that is in essence exactly what it is, crazy!
30% from fat is the absolute minimum. Most people do very well getting between 40-60% of their daily caloric intake from dietary fat, as long as it's the high quality healthy fats. Quality matters. And of course, try to eliminate processed food and added sugars as much as possible.

My personal macros are around 55% fat/15% protein /30% carb for a 2000 calorie day, which is a pretty moderate approach. I'll eat a bit more carbs on cardio days.
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Old 06-15-16, 09:16 PM
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And here I am spending tons of money trying to lower my t levels for a gender change and I could have done the same riding more miles?.... I'll have to talk to my endocrinologist and see what he says
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Old 06-15-16, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by link0
30% from fat is the absolute minimum. Most people do very well getting between 40-60% of their daily caloric intake from dietary fat, as long as it's the high quality healthy fats. Quality matters. And of course, try to eliminate processed food and added sugars as much as possible.

My personal macros are around 55% fat/15% protein /30% carb for a 2000 calorie day, which is a pretty moderate approach. I'll eat a bit more carbs on cardio days.
Stop spouting bull****. He should eat at least 0.4 g/lb BW (more doesn't hurt), and the percentage is completely irrelevant. All that matters is the absolute intake itself.
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Old 06-15-16, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by dvdslw
Good info, thanks! I'm a bit surprised to be honest about the 30% fat daily intake.
Do you know how much fat you're getting? Most people don't know unless they log and count.
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Old 06-15-16, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Emperor Ryker
Stop spouting bull****. He should eat at least 0.4 g/lb BW (more doesn't hurt), and the percentage is completely irrelevant. All that matters is the absolute intake itself.
The percentage refers to macros (macronutrient ratios), which is a commonly used marker in the nutritional world. Percentage of nutrients to lean body mass is extremely important. Optimal absolute intake of macronutrients is obviously different for a 150lb man vs a 250lb man.
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Old 06-15-16, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by link0
The percentage refers to macros (macronutrient ratios), which is a commonly used marker in the nutritional world. Percentage of nutrients to lean body mass is extremely important. Optimal absolute intake of macronutrients is obviously different for a 150lb man vs a 250lb man.
No one uses percentages anymore, because it's outdated and irrelevant. All that matters is the absolute intake or how it relates to body weight or lean body mass. Protein recommendations are given in g/lb of LBM or BW, and the same goes for fat. Carbs don't really have an optimal intake.

Someone already suggested Lyle McDonald above, so read this article of his on why setting up a diet based on macronutrient ratios is a mistake: Diet Percentages: Part 2 : Bodyrecomposition.
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Old 06-15-16, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Emperor Ryker
No one uses percentages anymore, because it's outdated and irrelevant. All that matters is the absolute intake or how it relates to body weight or lean body mass. Protein recommendations are given in g/lb of LBM or BW, and the same goes for fat. Carbs don't really have an optimal intake.

Someone already suggested Lyle McDonald above, so read this article of his on why setting up a diet based on macronutrient ratios is a mistake: Diet Percentages: Part 2 : Bodyrecomposition.
It's just math man. Macro ratios are useful for many who find it easier to imagine ratios vs grams. Many others, such as you, prefer using grams. No big deal. You can convert any macro ratio to a gram amount by multiplying. You obviously have to combine macro ratios with total caloric intake to get an absolute amount.
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Old 06-15-16, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by link0
It's just math man. Macro ratios are useful for many who find it easier to imagine ratios vs grams. Many others, such as you, prefer using grams. No big deal. You can convert any macro ratio to a gram amount by multiplying. You obviously have to combine macro ratios with total caloric intake to get an absolute amount.
Sure, of course you can convert between those, but as the article explains, it's not a good practice to start out with ratios. You need a certain amount of grams of, say, fats, not a certain share of the total intake. If you need 70g of fats to function normally and you're eating 50g, then it doesn't matter whether those 50g represent 20% or 50% of your total intake. It's not enough and that's what matters. The only reason why ratios "work" for some people is that they unwittingly select a ratio that just so happens to work for them in that case. The practice of doing so is still wrong and can lead to deficiencies.
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Old 06-16-16, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by dvdslw
I know, right! All I meant was the fact that I ate what you're supposed to eat while building muscle mass, high protien foods like chicken, beans, and a bunch of green veggies and salads. I stayed away from fried foods, desserts, sweets, etc...
It's impossible to build muscle without a caloric surplus. Your body needs something to build the muscle with. While you can eat a caloric surplus with foods you list, it is quite difficult to do, particularly when you're also riding. You need to consume more calories, and the easiest way to do that is to be a bit less restrictive on your diet. Try to gain 1/2 pound or so per week. And yes, you will gain a bit of fat too while doing this - it's pretty tough, if not impossible for a non-beginner to gain muscle without gaining some fat. You can tighten up your diet later to lose the fat while retaining most of your muscle gains. Please note that this is a slow process, you're not going to get huge in a couple of months, and in your 40s, its even slower.
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Old 06-16-16, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by woodcraft
I don't really get the whole 'gains' thing.

Is this not basically just over-eating in hopes of having bulging muscles?

My GF's twenty yr old son was pounding the protein shakes, etc.,

& he started to look like the dough-boy.
You and I are very different people apparently.
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Old 06-16-16, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by dvdslw
By gains I'm talking strictly muscle gains, not just dead weight gains. I was under the impression the one who would consume a weight gainer shake would expect that shake to feed the potential muscle they're looking to build, not get fatter. I also see now that there's a fine balance between too much gainer and not enough depending on the amount of work put in to ones training.
When you consume an excess of calories, your body will build both muscle and fat with the leftover calories. If you don't lift weights (or something similar) your body will build mostly fat. Lifting weights will signal to your body that you need build more muscle, so the ratio of muscle to fat built becomes more favourable (similarly when you diet, you lose both, but again lifting will signal your body to preserve as much muscle as possible). However, as someone else said, there is a limit to how much muscle you can build no matter what, so you don't want to consume too many excess calories as beyond a certain point, everything extra becomes fat.

Just curious, what was your routine? I saw you mention 3 sets of 8 to failure but what actual exercises were you doing? Were you training your legs? If not, you really should be. That is where most of your muscle mass is, so if you want to build muscle that is the key. Cycling is good, but it doesn't really provide the same muscle building stimulus that heavy squats do (unless you're doing something like track sprints). Also, training to failure is probably not a good idea. 1. At that point, your form breaks down and you have increased risk of injury. 2. It is much harder to recover from a set to failure than it is from a set where you stop 2 reps short of failure, but the benefits aren't all that different (so essentially the cost/benefit ratio isn't all that good from a recovery perspective). That doesn't mean you don't train hard, just that you don't push every set as hard as you possibly can (just like you don't ride as hard as you can every time on the bike).
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