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Group training on narrow road: 2-up or singlefile?

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Group training on narrow road: 2-up or singlefile?

Old 06-20-16, 03:01 PM
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Group training on narrow road: 2-up or singlefile?

Our club group ride route has a couple mile-long narrower sections with more cars and worse sightlines.

We're a bit uncertain of the best way to handle it.

Singlefile or two-up.

Actually, I'm more concerned about our B Group. When they go singlefile they tend to get gaps between them.

These are groups of 10-20 riders.

We're gonna fix this but I'm wondering if we should just work on closing all the gaps in singlefile or if we should just aim for 2-up instead.

I kinda like taking the lane and having riders with blinkies at the back who use hand signals to tell cars when it's good to pass.

We don't want to balk cars needlessly. When we stretch out singlefile we do delay them too much. I'm thinking a compact group then wave-around is the way to go. These roads are open enough and not so very heavily used so that if we were compact I think they could get around quick.

(PS: I see this is a training question, not racing. But this subject doesn't seem suitable for the Road section -- about bikes -- or the training section -- about plans. So I'll try the Roadies!)
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Old 06-20-16, 03:06 PM
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Best would be 41 riders across.


... but seriously folks ...

this is a road cycling question rather than a racing question, so I'll move the thread.
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Old 06-20-16, 03:08 PM
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I wouldn't wave anyone around, personally. That's asking for trouble. Only the driver should decide if it's safe to pass. If the road is wide enough that they can pass you one up without having to go much in the other lane, I would say one up. But otherwise, 2-up and compact is best in my opinion, although a lot of people will argue for 1 up in that situation.
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Old 06-20-16, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Flatballer
I wouldn't wave anyone around, personally. That's asking for trouble. Only the driver should decide if it's safe to pass. If the road is wide enough that they can pass you one up without having to go much in the other lane, I would say one up. But otherwise, 2-up and compact is best in my opinion, although a lot of people will argue for 1 up in that situation.
Waving around is vastly preferable in narrow situations. You allow the pass in a much more predictable situation, and you have better visibility than the driver who's still 40 ft back. This way they will be ready to pass as soon as they clear the corner. I will also expressly indicate when it's not safe to pass due to on-coming traffic (hand out, palm facing driver), car/cyclist goes past then wave the driver through. I'll usually get a courtesy wave in response.

While 2-up and compact is more efficient, it's far more likely to induce road rage. By riding single-file, you're not seen as directly impeding the progress of the cars.
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Old 06-20-16, 06:56 PM
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And when you wave a car around and they're slow and a car pulls out of a driveway into them and they all die and maybe some of your riders too?
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Old 06-20-16, 06:58 PM
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Michigan law (MVC 257.660b) says that two abreast is allowed unless there is a bike lane.


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Old 06-20-16, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Flatballer
And when you wave a car around and they're slow and a car pulls out of a driveway into them and they all die and maybe some of your riders too?
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Old 06-20-16, 07:21 PM
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Trick question. I simply avoiding riding with such groups.
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Old 06-20-16, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Flatballer
I wouldn't wave anyone around, personally. That's asking for trouble. Only the driver should decide if it's safe to pass. If the road is wide enough that they can pass you one up without having to go much in the other lane, I would say one up. But otherwise, 2-up and compact is best in my opinion, although a lot of people will argue for 1 up in that situation.
I have had positive results with waving people around. I am not telling them they must go. I am telling them that based on what I see I am comfortable with them passing. What they do with the information is up to them. If I wave them into a jam, I will be the sacrificial lamb and they know it.
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Old 06-20-16, 07:52 PM
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If you think you should be able to double up, first fix that 10-20 rider gappy group bit. Split up into smaller groups, get underway about 3-5 minutes apart, then you can make a judgement call. Smaller groups - 8 riders tops - get by with doubling up and taking the lane, especially if they stay close, but get more than that and it's a parade, a serious obstacle.
If it's 40-50' from the front wheel of the front rider to the back wheel of the last rider, your group is as long as an 18-wheeler, and you wouldn't want to encounter one of those on that same road, would you? Often enough on such roads, they're prohibited.
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Old 06-20-16, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103
Waving around is vastly preferable in narrow situations. .
And what happens when the guy in the back waves the car to pass and the 2 riders on the front of this 20 person group decide its time to pull left and drop to the back?
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Old 06-20-16, 11:02 PM
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Why make it so complicated - single file for narrow sections and double when space permits - simple.....
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Old 06-20-16, 11:10 PM
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There's a similar thread in A&S: Narrow Lanes and Group Riding? Oh, that's your thread, and they suggested to post here.
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Old 06-20-16, 11:25 PM
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Colorado law is single file
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Old 06-21-16, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by macca33
Why make it so complicated - single file for narrow sections and double when space permits - simple.....
This.

SOP for experienced racer types.
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Old 06-21-16, 05:27 AM
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We always ride double, but when a car is behind us, we'll go single file and wave them when there's a nice clearing.

Most of our roads are just not busy though.

I think if it's like you say, only one mile long, terrible sightlines, you just take the lane for that mile. Whether local law is single or double, ride within that scope, but take the lane regardless, in my opinion.
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Old 06-21-16, 05:30 AM
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What if you wave them and they wave back and then someone rings their bell and then the driver shouts on your left and then everybody dies?
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Old 06-21-16, 06:14 AM
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2-abreast is generally better for all parties. More shelter for the rider. Keeps pack together. Less likelihood of cars taking 'close passes'. More visibility and quicker pass for cars.

Another thing to do when the road demands it (lots of traffic, narrow lanes, etc), is to split big groups into packs of 2x3s or 2x4s.

Or if the road really demands it, go single file.

This sounds like the 'how fast should i be riding uphill in a group' question... 'how long is a piece of string'... or 'how comfortable is my saddle'
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Old 06-21-16, 07:25 AM
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First, stick with what you state law allows. Superdex: Colorado law does not specify single file - rather it says riders traveling two-abreast shall not impede the flow of traffic and must stay in a single lane - Colorado Bike Law | Colorado Law.

Some pseudo-scientific studies suggest that it takes about 80 percent longer for a car to pass a single file group of cyclists vs. double file.

Studies on crash statistics show that solo riders are more likely to be hit than groups. The data is not clear on whether double file is safer than single file, though riding double file does increase the visibility of the group.

As for waving cars around, there are arguments for and against. FB pointed out the against arguments. And any riders pulling off should check that the road is clear before doing so.
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Old 06-21-16, 08:06 AM
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Our approach is usually 2-up then singlefile when on busy road -- probably been doing it that way for decades. However, I'm questioning that lately and posted trying to find experts to see if SOP has changed.

I do notice that going singlefile LOOKS nicer to drivers and maybe that's the main thing, but it greatly lengthens their time needed to pass -- often enough to prevent a pass based on traffic levels. So I'm wondering if it's now considered NOT the thing.

More cars can pass easier with 2-up. So... There's the appearance of courtesy then there's actual courtesy.

I wonder if the only advantage of singlefile is a car-friendlier visual. Functionally, its only difference seems to be that it invites the INSANELY UNDESIRABLE squeeze-play. If no head-on car is around then a car can just as easily move over an entire lane to avoid a compact 2-up as it can to pass a singlefile.

(Sorry about posting in the wrong place! I avoided Road Cycling because I saw only questions about bike-shopping.)
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Old 06-21-16, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by superdex
Colorado law is single file
OP is in Michigan.
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Old 06-21-16, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH
OP is in Michigan.
OP should check local laws
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Old 06-21-16, 10:12 AM
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I prefer 2 up. Not as long of a pace line, and if the road has terrible sightlines, there's nothing wrong with being a little aggressive in taking the lane until sightlines improve. You don't need motorists to try and squeeze by around a blind corner and cause an accident. And if they insist on doing so, at least a 2 up pace line is half as long as a single file.
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Old 06-21-16, 10:17 AM
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It's easy to say not riding that rode but IMO if you have to ask the answer is two abreast.
It sounds like the very road you are describing is why we have such laws allowing us to do two abreast.

Better to piss a few cars off than let them mirror you or run you you guys of the road.

Originally Posted by superdex
Colorado law is single file
I didn't even believe this until I just looked it up. Crazy. Any other states you know with this law?

The law in AZ to get around what CO seems to do is once there are 5 cars behind we must pull off and let them pass. I've never seen this happen.

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Old 06-21-16, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by jfowler85
Originally Posted by Flatballer
And when you wave a car around and they're slow and a car pulls out of a driveway into them and they all die and maybe some of your riders too?
You discount this possibility. However there are numerous reported cases of "negligent waving"

It's best to letthemmake their own decisions
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