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I have compatible rims -- convince me on-road tubeless is (or isn't) worth it

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I have compatible rims -- convince me on-road tubeless is (or isn't) worth it

Old 07-17-16, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
I sked them that when I got mine, and they said that Hutchinson were a problem, but that Schwalbe and IRC were good choices. Of course, they were pretty much the only ones making tubeless at that time...

After reading a PEZ Cyling interview with Bill Shook, who was using Ones and AC Road Tubeless wheels on his personal ride, I chose Ones. Shook is a smart guy, so one to emulate in this regard.
That sounds about right. I was running some Fusion 3's at the time I was wheel shopping and that comment about the carbon reinforced bead stuck in my mind. I called AC to ask about this before pulling the trigger and they told me that a tire with a reinforced carbon bead would cause the rim to compress when fully inflated leading to uneven spoke tension and possibly an out of true wheel. AC makes some nice light and wide wheels but their lightness comes at the expense of rim strength. I really wanted to like the Argent's for myself but being 225lbs and at the time riding a tubeless tire with a carbon bead, I passed on them.
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Old 07-17-16, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Chandne
I'm going to use the Schwalbes on the Pacenti rims and the IRCs on the AM Classics. Let's see how each works. I do carry a tube and am hoping I don't have to deal with a crazy time throwing in a tube, if ever needed.
It appears that either tire will work with either wheelset so no worries, and don't stress on having to put a tube in some day, I think you'll find that the Schwalbe's and IRC's are quite easy to mount.
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Old 07-17-16, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Chandne
I'm going to use the Schwalbes on the Pacenti rims and the IRCs on the AM Classics. Let's see how each works. I do cary a tube and am hoping I don't have to deal with a crazy time throwing in a tube, if ever needed.
I would recommend the one pro's instead of the former one's, based on my own experience. After I butchered that tire I installed the one pro's and it was much easier to mount/remove. I couldn't inflate it though but that is a different issue. I tried to use the gas station air compressor but it wouldn't inflate even with that so I took to the LBS and they wrapped a tape around it to force the beads to stay close to the side of the rim so they got it to inflate.
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Old 01-25-17, 04:11 PM
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6 Month Update on Tubeless for Mostly On-Road Usage (from OP)

For other asking the same question, here's my take after 6 months:

Overall: The tubeless tire experiment has gone well. I haven't had to do much, other than put air in my tires, since getting everything setup. No flats. Nice ride quality (though that is largely due to moving to higher volume tires).
--Would I encourage a mostly-pavement riding roadie to buy new rims just to make the switch: No. Not unless constant flats are a problem where they ride.
--Would I encourage someone who has tubeless-compatible rims to make the switch? It depends. If you get joy from tinkering and don't mind some potential hassles when getting everything setup for the first time, then sure, give it a shot. Otherwise keep enjoying your current tube-based setup.

Setup Challenges: Setup was a bit of a hassle and too some time, but was not difficult per-se. The key annoyances involved...
1) getting the tire to first seal (i.e. "pop" fully into place), which I eventually accomplished with frantic pumping using a regular hand-operated tire pump (i.e. not a compressor), and
2) taking *way* more time and effort than expected to get the sidewalls well-sealed so that I wasn't going from 50 PSI down to 20 PSI every night.

Annoyances over time:
1) Over several time intervals, my rear tire was not holding air very well overnight. This appears to be due to excessive sidewall leakage, based on the wet spots along the outside of the tire. Fixing this involved making sure the tire was well seated and propping the tire on its side (e.g. over the mouth of a cardboard box) to let sealant travel to any sidewall leaks (then repeating with the other side of the tire). Sealant probably doesn't coat the sidewalls very well while the bike is in motion or at rest (e.g. centrifugal force and gravity).
2) I'm now at the point where I should really add more sealant (6 months) and haven't done it yet. It won't take long, but just another small maintenance chore.
3) Ideally I'd like to pull both tires off, remove any larger "Stan's boogers" from inside, mount them with new sealant, and then do the sideways tire rigmarole to reseal them. But that takes more time still.
4) Having to live with sidewall seepage of sealant (a lot at first, less over time), even after everything is holding air very well. It basically looks like "sweat" on your tires -- or bubbly spots early-on before the sidewalls are well sealed. Not a huge deal, but something you don't have when using tubes.

Anyway, thanks to folks in this thread who contributed their own two cents earlier. I've enjoyed learning something new. The main benefit overall has been using smoother and more supple tires, while still avoiding flats on my commute. I don't think I'd use tires this lightweight and thin-walled if I were running tubes. I'm currently running Compass Bon Jon Pass Extra Lights.
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Old 01-25-17, 04:16 PM
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I set my new wheels up tubeless. Actually I had the shop do it for me. Ride quality is excellent.
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Old 01-25-17, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TrackSmart
For other asking the same question, here's my take after 6 months:

Overall: The tubeless tire experiment has gone well. I haven't had to do much, other than put air in my tires, since getting everything setup. No flats. Nice ride quality (though that is largely due to moving to higher volume tires).
--Would I encourage a mostly-pavement riding roadie to buy new rims just to make the switch: No. Not unless constant flats are a problem where they ride.
--Would I encourage someone who has tubeless-compatible rims to make the switch? It depends. If you get joy from tinkering and don't mind some potential hassles when getting everything setup for the first time, then sure, give it a shot. Otherwise keep enjoying your current tube-based setup.

Setup Challenges: Setup was a bit of a hassle and too some time, but was not difficult per-se. The key annoyances involved...
1) getting the tire to first seal (i.e. "pop" fully into place), which I eventually accomplished with frantic pumping using a regular hand-operated tire pump (i.e. not a compressor), and
2) taking *way* more time and effort than expected to get the sidewalls well-sealed so that I wasn't going from 50 PSI down to 20 PSI every night.

Annoyances over time:
1) Over several time intervals, my rear tire was not holding air very well overnight. This appears to be due to excessive sidewall leakage, based on the wet spots along the outside of the tire. Fixing this involved making sure the tire was well seated and propping the tire on its side (e.g. over the mouth of a cardboard box) to let sealant travel to any sidewall leaks (then repeating with the other side of the tire). Sealant probably doesn't coat the sidewalls very well while the bike is in motion or at rest (e.g. centrifugal force and gravity).
2) I'm now at the point where I should really add more sealant (6 months) and haven't done it yet. It won't take long, but just another small maintenance chore.
3) Ideally I'd like to pull both tires off, remove any larger "Stan's boogers" from inside, mount them with new sealant, and then do the sideways tire rigmarole to reseal them. But that takes more time still.
4) Having to live with sidewall seepage of sealant (a lot at first, less over time), even after everything is holding air very well. It basically looks like "sweat" on your tires -- or bubbly spots early-on before the sidewalls are well sealed. Not a huge deal, but something you don't have when using tubes.

Anyway, thanks to folks in this thread who contributed their own two cents earlier. I've enjoyed learning something new. The main benefit overall has been using smoother and more supple tires, while still avoiding flats on my commute. I don't think I'd use tires this lightweight and thin-walled if I were running tubes. I'm currently running Compass Bon Jon Pass Extra Lights.
It sounds to me that all your tubeless troubles are due to tubeless tape that is too thick. Too thick tape makes it extremely difficult to seat the tires, and can even prevent the tires from fully seating . . . which would lead to massive leaks at the sidewall, which would require a lot of sealant to seal. I'd wager that your tires aren't actually fully seated.

You'd probably be better off taking everything off, putting a new layer of tubeless tape on, and trying again.
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Old 01-25-17, 05:36 PM
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What makes the rims compatible? Aren't they all? I don't use tubeless (other than Tufos in the past - but that is different).
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Old 01-25-17, 06:57 PM
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Tubeless Clincher

Description: No inner-tube required. Rim and tire are specifically designed so that tire effectively locks onto the rim creating an airtight seal. Tire sealant is often used in the tire to reinforce the rim and tire seal as well as seal small punctures caused by road debris
Pros:
  • Improved rolling resistance over standard clinchers depending tire brand and model
  • Virtually flat proof wheels
  • Lower tire pressure
  • Aerodynamics of a standard clincher
  • Abundant tire options suitable for everything between winter training and professional racing
Cons:
  • Tire choice more limited than standard clincher
  • Tires are expensive
  • Tires are typically heavier than standard clincher tires
  • Tire removal and flat repair is more challenging than on standard clincher with inner-tube
  • Sealant can be messy


Why Road Tubeless is Here to Stay - ENVE Composites
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Old 01-25-17, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Tubeless Clincher

Description: No inner-tube required. Rim and tire are specifically designed so that tire effectively locks onto the rim creating an airtight seal. ...
I'm thinking that is any hooked beaded clincher - sealed with Stans or something like that. Am I wrong?
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Old 01-25-17, 07:30 PM
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Yes. There isn't a hook for the bead to go into. The tire isn't even supposed to have a bead.
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Old 01-26-17, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RNAV
It sounds to me that all your tubeless troubles are due to tubeless tape that is too thick. Too thick tape makes it extremely difficult to seat the tires, and can even prevent the tires from fully seating . . . which would lead to massive leaks at the sidewall, which would require a lot of sealant to seal. I'd wager that your tires aren't actually fully seated.

You'd probably be better off taking everything off, putting a new layer of tubeless tape on, and trying again.

This might be the case and is probably worth trying if they fail to seal after my usual, lazier methods (put sideways on an open box, turn, repeat). That said, based on what I have witnessed thus far and the tell-tale signs of "where is the sealant coming from" (i.e. not dripping from around the rim/tire interface, but oozing out of hundreds of small holes and seams), I would guess that the sidewalls are really at play.

The Compass Bon Jon Pass tires measure 38.5+ mm wide on my rims and weigh only 300g. That's a double-edged sword: The tires are fast, supple, and comfortable, but they have very thin and relatively porous sidewalls that are constantly weeping -- even 1,000 miles later.
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Old 01-26-17, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Yes. There isn't a hook for the bead to go into. The tire isn't even supposed to have a bead.
So how does one know if they have compatible rims or not (Other than the mfg saying it)?
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Old 01-27-17, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dvdslw
That sounds about right. I was running some Fusion 3's at the time I was wheel shopping and that comment about the carbon reinforced bead stuck in my mind. I called AC to ask about this before pulling the trigger and they told me that a tire with a reinforced carbon bead would cause the rim to compress when fully inflated leading to uneven spoke tension and possibly an out of true wheel. AC makes some nice light and wide wheels but their lightness comes at the expense of rim strength. I really wanted to like the Argent's for myself but being 225lbs and at the time riding a tubeless tire with a carbon bead, I passed on them.
I know this was posted some time back, but I just wanted to comment that the Argents have been absolutely stunning for me these past three years, and I've seen no indication of sacrificed rim strength. I am also 225lbs.

In fact, the only truing they've needed was subsequent to a rim-denting, brifter-busting, multi-bike crash. I crashed them another time on a 30mph wet downhill when a rider in front went down and slid out in front of me, taking me out at the wheels from the side; Argents unscathed, though bike took some chipping and other damage.

The wear indicators on front make me think I've only got another season or two in them, so long-term durability may not be their thing (a tradeoff for lightness right there), but I'm considering getting another set because they have been so good.
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Old 01-27-17, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge
So how does one know if they have compatible rims or not (Other than the mfg saying it)?
You'll have to ask someone who knows more about it than me. I've heard people talk about it for years but never really paid much attention. Then I ordered a wheel set, I was planning to use tubes and normal clinchers, but I found out it can only do tubeless tires, even with a tube. So if I have to buy the special tires anyway, I decided to go tubeless. A lot of people seek them out, but in my case it's more like it just happened.
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Old 01-27-17, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
I know this was posted some time back, but I just wanted to comment that the Argents have been absolutely stunning for me these past three years, and I've seen no indication of sacrificed rim strength. I am also 225lbs.

In fact, the only truing they've needed was subsequent to a rim-denting, brifter-busting, multi-bike crash. I crashed them another time on a 30mph wet downhill when a rider in front went down and slid out in front of me, taking me out at the wheels from the side; Argents unscathed, though bike took some chipping and other damage.

The wear indicators on front make me think I've only got another season or two in them, so long-term durability may not be their thing (a tradeoff for lightness right there), but I'm considering getting another set because they have been so good.
I got a set of AC Road Tubeless, and the brake tracks are not looking great after about 3 years (5000 miles or so). But boy are these wheels light.
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Old 01-27-17, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
You'll have to ask someone who knows more about it than me. I've heard people talk about it for years but never really paid much attention. Then I ordered a wheel set, I was planning to use tubes and normal clinchers, but I found out it can only do tubeless tires, even with a tube. So if I have to buy the special tires anyway, I decided to go tubeless. A lot of people seek them out, but in my case it's more like it just happened.
I think I'm in the same spot. I just bought those Vittoria Speed G+ tubulars and was thinking the tubless 25's - or 28's for me might be nice. Those are nice tires. The sealant idea is going to take some getting used to.

When my kid was around I had him on tubulars most the time and if there was a flat - I'd drive and get him. It worked well as any race tire that had a hole we'd seal with Stans and it would become a training tire. I had to pick him up maybe 1/5,000 miles. I've ridden tubulars for years and fed off his old supply recently. But as clinchers got better, and I got slower, and there are fewer patched tubulars around I started thinking it was time to change. I bought clinchers for him/team at school with a power tap for his own flat repair, and I got a set too - so we're all "normal" now. We are running latex as both of us think we can feel that and he was coming from mostly fancy tires. When he's doing dirt roads - not real Road Cycling - he still uses the big 28 tubulars as they lesson the flat chances.
Anyway - I'll ask the MFG and maybe switch over myself.
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Old 01-29-17, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by TrackSmart
For other asking the same question, here's my take after 6 months:


2) I'm now at the point where I should really add more sealant (6 months) and haven't done it yet. It won't take long, but just another small maintenance chore.


Anyway, thanks to folks in this thread who contributed their own two cents earlier. I've enjoyed learning something new. The main benefit overall has been using smoother and more supple tires, while still avoiding flats on my commute. I don't think I'd use tires this lightweight and thin-walled if I were running tubes. I'm currently running Compass Bon Jon Pass Extra Lights.

I also struggled initially but enjoy the ride. My main aim was that my wife who often rides alone should not have to call me when she flats, and to that end the tubeless have done their job.

To refill sealant, just deflate, remove the core and inject with a syringe. After 6 months, it's unlikely that the tyre will de seat.

Also no point in removing the tyre to clean the old sealant. Not much left when it dries.
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Old 01-30-17, 05:27 AM
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Old 01-31-17, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by redfooj
Nice video! That said, clearly they are *not* indestructible, given my friend who had a tire gash that was just large enough that it failed to fully seal after hitting some road debris on his second ride with a new road bike (see several posts earlier in this thread). We are talking about 1/4 inch slit. But for smaller punctures, like these nail holes, yeah, it is pretty impressive. I'm guessing that the glass pieces didn't cause any sizeable gashes in this test or we would have seen total deflation pretty quickly.

NOTE: It is possible (i.e. very likely) that some sealants do better on larger vs smaller punctures. This test used tubes, so not a good analog to actual tubeless tires, but there were some differences among the brands in terms of sealing large vs small punctures: Sealant Test - Part 1 - Slowtwitch.com
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Old 01-31-17, 09:59 AM
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At the point where tubeless tires are easy enough to take on or off, I think they will become far more widespread. Right there are are too many variances in rims and even tires, to a degree. MTB tires are easy to take on and off, and I no longer know anybody here running tubes on trail bikes. Even the most ardent detractor friend of mine switched 2 years ago. I'm running my Tarmac and Crux tubeless. The Crux makes a lot of sense since it is a bad weather, winter, gravel bike, with 33s. However, each time I get on the Tarmac, the smooth ride quality is impressive. While the Roubaix is comfy and has tubes, the ride quality is better on the Tarmac as long as the roads don't get rough to the point where big cracks and joints are present. At that point, the compliance of the Roubaix frame is evident. As far as sealant goes, I have switched back to Stan's from Orange Seal. So far, Stan's has been the benchmark and remains so even though OS did seal up the one puncture I had on the road. I have some long rides coming up in a few months and would rather use tubeless. What I need to do though, is not use sealant (for test purposes) and test how easy it is to take the tire off and throw in a tube if needed. While the Tarmac wheels hold air very well, I am not sure how easy the tire-bead off/on would be on the road. Some rims really lock that tire-bead on with a bead shelf.
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Old 01-31-17, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Chandne
While the Tarmac wheels hold air very well, I am not sure how easy the tire-bead off/on would be on the road. Some rims really lock that tire-bead on with a bead shelf.
I've put a tube into the original Schwalbe One on Shimano rims, which is about the most difficult combination possible. It took about ~15min sitting by the roadside, and used standard levers. After a tire has stretched on a rim it's usually easier to get on/off, although more difficult to get seated/sealed again. The sealed again is only an issue when you go to remove the tube and go back to tubeless.

Why did I need to put a tube in? I ran the tires until they wore out (cords showing), with no sealant.
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Old 01-31-17, 11:43 AM
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I was wondering about a scenario where a tire was gashed and would not hold air, in which case, I'd use a reinforcing patch and a tube.
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Old 01-31-17, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
You'll have to ask someone who knows more about it than me. I've heard people talk about it for years but never really paid much attention. Then I ordered a wheel set, I was planning to use tubes and normal clinchers, but I found out it can only do tubeless tires, even with a tube. So if I have to buy the special tires anyway, I decided to go tubeless. A lot of people seek them out, but in my case it's more like it just happened.
Oh. I haven't heard anything about having to use tubeless tire if you are going to run a tube.
I have tubeless ready rims and regular clinches with tubes.... everything is fine.
Can somebody point to a link or something about having to run tubeless tires with a tube on tubeless ready rims ?
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Old 01-31-17, 12:27 PM
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SES 4.5 AR Disc - ENVE Composites



I doubt you can generalize to all tubeless ready rims from this. That statement you responded to, though, I was only talking about my rims.
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Old 01-31-17, 12:50 PM
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OK, thanks for that. 80 PSI max may be the deal breaker with the carbon rims
I am running DT Swiss aluminum and they don't have info like this AFAIK.
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