corrado33

Do you currently get lots of puncture flats from goatheads or similar?

If yes -> tubeless would be good for you.

If no -> don't bother.

redfooj

theres my opinion from experience

TrackSmart

Thanks for the opinion. You are probably right that it will not be a major difference in my ride experience, given the rarity with which I get flats.


Indeed, it sounds like there aren't many obstacles aside for learning something new. If it doesn't work out, I can always clean-out the messy sealant and run the tire with tubes until it is worn out.


EDIT: I just spoke to a friend who purchased a bike last year that came with road tubeless: He got a moderate-size tire gash out on the road, which caused small amounts of sealant to spray out as he rode -- the leak refused to fully seal. He tried to put a tube in the tire, but could not remove the tire -- the sealant had clogged the valve stem. It was a slow-enough leak, due to the sealant, that it would probably take hours before getting low enough to unseat the tire (slowing as pressure got lower) so he topped-off every few miles until he could get back home. He was annoyed (brand new bike on second ride), so he brought the bike to the shop after the ride and asked for normal "tubed" tires. They didn't believe his story -- until they tried to get the air out of the tire. They couldn't do it either! They did eventually sort it out, but it was this rider's first and last experience with tubeless. I did not realize that he had tried tubeless tires. He probably forgot about it, too, until I mentioned that I was going to buy some tubeless tires... He recommended that I avoid them based on his short experience with them.

I'm still going to give it a try, but that is a mishap that is *not* listed in any of the articles I've read. I can see why there is such a love/hate relationship with tubeless tires. Things usually don't go wrong, but when they do, it can be a major pain.

chaadster

Wow, Zinn's result is really surprising! As I said, my experience with three different rims (2 AC, 1 Reynolds) and 3 tires (2 Schwalbe, one Specialized), and from reports I've read here, is that the beads don't really lock in, and will pop out upon deflation. Perhaps the Hutchinson road tires Zinn rode, owing to the company's involvement in the development of UST tubeless for MTB which do lock in more securely, share the same UST bead design as their MTB tires, which other road tubeless manufacturers don't have. I don't know-- clearly!-- but there is certainly a subset of tubeless tire/rim combos which don't stay seated when flat.

If I recall, Sinn said he rode 2km on flat before the bead came loose, which is pretty good! It would be kind of nice to have that security, but I'm not sure it's all that relevant to most of us, as the odds of a catastrophic cut to cause near instantaneous air loss are pretty low, and the odds of getting a dead flat on tubeless much lower than tubed.

Anyway, I didn't specify the terms of the wager, so I get to avoid paying out on a technicality, right?! Thanks for the article link and putting me straight on that.

chaadster

I wonder did your buddy not have valve stems with removeable cores? I wouldn't think they couldn't be unscrewed. Good equipment spec makes a difference to the experience.

dvdslw

I could see where someone without knowledge could have ended up in this situation out on the road but the bike shop not able to let the air out? Sealant can certainly clog a valve stem but there's a few things to do that will get the air out. First of all, do you know if he had valve stems with removable cores? Some are not removable and should be avoided in your search for stems when it comes time to buy some for your setup because removing the core usually gets the tire deflated. If that doesn't work or you didn't pack the tiny core removal tool in your flat kit, you would simply remove the nut that holds the valve stem on the wheel and push the stem in as if you're removing it and it will push any built up latex out of the way and allow air to escape. The only extreme situation I could see making this impossible would be if someone put a quart of sealant in the tire, had the bike parked with the stem at 6 o'clock for a year and never moved it.

chaadster

Ha! Great point on just unscrewing the whole damn stem!

The crazy stuff that gets blamed as "the problem with tubeless..."!

dvdslw

Its easy to get flustered out on the road and not think of these simple solutions, especially being a newbie to tubeless. I had a weird situation back when I was having trouble with my Assault's where my valve stem was leaking around the base and I unknowingly over tightened the stem to the point the rubber base inside the wheel split causing a bigger leak. Still chose to go out for a ride and was stranded because due to my previous two years of "no" flats with the Ultegra's I got cocky and was riding without a flat kit.

Come to find out it ended up being those defective carbon wheels, not the stem that was leaking. Now, because of that ride I always carry a spare tube, co2, and lever just in case. Plus, I like helping others stranded out on the road so having the supplies to do so makes me feel good.

ahanulec

It might just out of curiosity but I'm more interested in trying tubular tires than going tubeless.

If you have to mess with sealant and cleaning that out of the tires you lose the advantages of clinchers simplicity and ease of Maintenance anyway.

As for improvements in designs moving forward I think the glue tape available for tubular is likely easier than any sealant maintenance improvements we are likely to see.

Chandne

I think it is obvious that road tubeless is going through some of the same pains that MTB tubeless did back in the early 2000s when I started trying tubeless. I think one of the problems is rim design. Especially since road tires have to be relatively thin/light and the sidewalls are supple, I think the rims need to be designed better. Most rims are designed with basically a "shelf" where the bead sits so there is nothing really locking it in better. Road tires are also narrow when compared to the newer wide rims noways. So when deflated, they fall away quite easily. I found one rim (sold only as wheelset) that has a bead "barb" or raised area to hold the tire bead close to the sidewall, as opposed to a raised "shelf". It is the American Classic Argent Tubeless. The Easton R90 SL may have a similar design but I can't really tell definitively because the close-up pictures are not very clear.

For me, tubeless has a really high ride quality and some safety features. It is the safely part that can be greatly enhanced by a solid bead-lock. So tubeless is definitely worth trying and will become better down the road. I just ordered the Argent Tubeless Disc rims to try on my Tarmac. I ordered a a set of 25mm (already have 23s) Schwalbe Pro Ones and a set of IRC Pro RBCC 23 tubeless (they measure 25-26, depending on rim width) and will see how this rim works. I just hope the Am Classic hubs are durable.

beatlebee 

Holes that are a bit too big for sealant to coagulate can be remedied with a spot of superglue and then a slef adhesive tube patch on the tire. This gives the sealant a foundation so that it can solidify.
@ahanulec: I run sealant in my tubulars as well. Saved a race for me last year.

garciawork

I didn't read everything in the thread, but will toss in my experience. I haven't used a tube in... 6 or 7 years I believe, and have only had one flat, road or MTB. I won't consider running a wheelset with tubes agai, period.

TrackSmart

In this case the person was "sold" on the idea of tubeless by the shop when buying a high-end race bike. The tires were installed on the bike at the shop.

I'm guessing that basic info about tubeless tires was given, but the person in question had never had a tubeless tire before and had not actually installed one before hitting the road.

When folks at a bike shop say the technology is fool-proof, but if you do get a flat, just put a tube in the tire -- they are unfortunately creating the potential for bad experiences. In this case, that simple advice -- just put a tube in the tire -- was clearly not enough.

They should have installed the tires when the customer was present and showed him how it all works and potential failure points. That would include the fact that the valve-stem is removable. However, that is problematic for shops, since as I've read, some tires don't completely seal immediately and shops don't want customers leaving and coming back when their tire doesn't hold air. That would also be a bad experience for the customer.

There are clearly some lessons for bike shops to learn when sending riders off on tubeless setups. And even for regular tubeless riders to learn when recommending tubeless tires to friends for the first time.

[By the way, thanks for the info given by folks here. I feel quite ready to deal with challenges that may arise.]

dvdslw

Well said, its easy for us who find tubeless somewhat easy to also judge others for their lack of knowledge on the subject when in actuality we're all still going through a learning curve as well. I agree that bike shops should give some sort of tutorial when shipping a bike setup tubeless for those who have never dealt with it before or maybe ask the customer if they're familiar with tubeless and offer support from there?

chaadster

Oh, come on! Bike shops never taught people how to fix a flat on a regular tubed tire, so why this new, higher standard? No one gets taught anything about how to fix a car when they buy one; why is this different? I think blaming the shop for consumers' ignorance is misguided, and it strikes me as exactly the line of reasoning which has created this litigious culture wherein we get sold the "dumbed down" versions of everything, and ugly stickers plastered all over our bikes remind us, essentially, to use our brain, because someone is going to do something stupid and want to pin the blame on someone else. Maybe it is a fine line between industry run amok and consumer protection, but this seems a pretty clear example of where following precedent does no harm; so you get a flat and can't figure it out? Big deal, take it to the shop to get fixed.

rpenmanparker 

Don't forget that tubeless tires can't pinch flat, but they still have to be inflated sufficiently to protect the rim from being dinged. I'm not willing to test that limit all the way to failure.

rpenmanparker 

Hooray for the glue tape. It makes tubulars a whole different story.

chase1472

Just picked up a new 2017 bike and it came tubeless from factory. First two ride impression are it definitely improves the ride quality on chatter/cracked roads. Running at 95/100PSI currently 200lbs rider. I have been running tubeless for MTB for years and love it. I say give it a try if you need new tires.

dvdslw

I almost bought a set of Argent's last year but decided to go carbon instead. American Classic makes some great products and were made famous for their hub quality in the mtb scene years ago. Those Argent rims are quite wide on the inside, I want to say 20.5mm? I think you'll be surprised how wide the Pro One's are going to measure once you get them aired up. I'm going to guess that the 25's will be at least 28mm wide inflated. Chaadster has a set on his bike he's been riding tubeless for quite some time so you could pm him to ask for some real world impressions.

I agree about all tubeless rims needing bead lock technology for safety and anyone not including this feature on a wheelset sold as tubeless is simply throwing some rim tape on a wheel and calling it tubeless. With a solid bead lock a tubeless tire will stay in place when deflated and be somewhat tough to break loose, even a narrow tire. I'm running 23mm Pro One's on a 28mm/19mm rim and they measure 27mm wide mounted up. It takes all I got to break them loose by hand and Id consider myself a pretty strong guy.

dvdslw

Also, check with American Classic about which tires they suggest to use with those wheels, they told me not to use anything with a carbon reinforced bead. They seem to be in bed with IRC.

chaadster

Doesn't the tire bead have to be designed to take advantage of the rim's bead barb in order to lock in, too? I'm thinking this is where a set of design and construction standards would be most helpful to ensure compatibility.

ridehikebike

So I'm not contributing anything helpful here but have to say...
Hahaha wow I liked this post a lot, I can identify, and thanks for the hilarious picture!!!

Chandne

I'm going to use the Schwalbes on the Pacenti rims and the IRCs on the AM Classics. Let's see how each works. I do cary a tube and am hoping I don't have to deal with a crazy time throwing in a tube, if ever needed.

StanSeven

That doesn't sound like a true comparison. With a new bike you only used tubless so far.

I just tried tubeless after my tubed tires need replacement. I can't tell one bit of difference in feel or ride quality.

chaadster

I sked them that when I got mine, and they said that Hutchinson were a problem, but that Schwalbe and IRC were good choices. Of course, they were pretty much the only ones making tubeless at that time...

After reading a PEZ Cyling interview with Bill Shook, who was using Ones and AC Road Tubeless wheels on his personal ride, I chose Ones. Shook is a smart guy, so one to emulate in this regard.