rpenmanparker 

Sorry Bob. That just isn't reality. You can get the same behavior at nearly all price levels.

American Euchre

It's probably placebo effect.

And this is probably parody of cycling mag's overblown hype (I mean reviews).

Bob Ross

BZZZT! I'm sorry, thank you for playing, next contestant please.

But don't take my word for it. You're welcome to come over to my house and ride my Bridgestone 600 (made from 1" 4130 pipes) and then ride my Sachs (made from OS Columbus PegoRichie pipes) and then you try to say with a straight face that they behave the same.

Just because it's possible to get excellent behavior from a low-end steel frame -- and/or crappy behavior from a high-end steel frame -- doesn't mean that it's impossible for there to be behavioral differences that correlate to price. Sometimes it's the cheaper bike that simply isn't as good.

rpenmanparker 

No argument there, I'm sure you have better bikes and lesser bikes. But why pay more if you don't have to?

PeregrineA1 

New or pre-owned? Is that your total budget?


In any event, a recent fairly high end steel, a 6800 group from England, and some nice wheels from Pacenti would set you up nicely for <$2K. The frame should run 700-1000.00 max. Let someone else take the loss.



A little bit old school. Ed Litton from 1991 with 7400 Dura Ace. Could easily be a modern drivetrain. Under $1,500.00.



Mid 90's Steelman Stage Race. Carbon fork, 2016 Campy Athena drivetrain, Pacenti hoops and White Industries hubs. Right at $2,000.00 all in.


I'm currently building a Spectrum Super Ti with Pacenti wheels and hubs, and a 6800 drivetrain. Again it will be right around $2K. No it's not steel.....


Anyway, the quality of the ride is discernable low end to high end steel.

link0

If you go high end steel, you'll get one of 1) lighter steel 2) better craftsmanship/detailing or both. I consider the Soma smoothie to be mid-range (uses mid-range steel - Tange Prestige) in performance and low-range in price, and thus a great value. A low end steel bike would use 520/30 or generic 4130 cromo.

rms13

Used is nice if you can find it. I got my Wraith used as a complete bike for less then the frameset cost new (and frameset is only $1400). I added brand new FSA SLK Light cranks, bottom bracket, chain, campy cable kit and Fabric Scoop Pro saddle and now I'm into the bike for about the same as the frameset would cost new. And you have to pre order that frame and wait a few months for the next production run so I feel like I made out ok

ColonelSanders

How does it compare for protecting the rider from road buzz?

vinfix

Yes, I've had, and still have both. It's not the particular steel that matters as much as geometry, and whether you have a carbon fork & other modern features. My Breezer Venturi (which are selling at huge closeout prices now) is modern, with shaped tubes, carbon fork, BB86 bottom bracket, etc. and "D'enlightened" steel, whatever that is.
Before that, I was riding a Fuji Connoisseur, a retro 725 steel frame, with straight steel, threaded fork, longer chainstays- heavier bike with more road buzz, less aggresive handling.

My Bianchi Pista steel is nothing special, but it does have an ovalized down tube, and is stiff, with track geometry. And my 70's Japanese bike boom Zebra has stamped dropouts, sport touring geometry, and though it feels nice & smooth with a carbon fork & seatpost, feels flexy in comparison to all the others.

Bob Ross

I don't think anyone is advocating that the consumer pay more than they have to.

I'm advocating that OP be aware that there's a discernable range in behaviors between the "low-end" and the "high-end", so that he doesn't overlook something that might better meet his needs (albeit possibly at a higher cost).

I would then advocate that the OP pay whatever it takes to get a bike that meets his needs. Not blindly, and certainly not based purely on price, but after doing thorough research.

mpath

My vote is for a Speedvagen.

Inpd

Would the quality of manufacturing (i.e. QA, weld quality etc.) be a discerning factor b/w high and low end?

Looking at bikes from different manufacturers (albeit in Alloy) the difference in frame quality to the naked eye is obvious.

rms13

Road buzz is not an issue for me. But it also has not been an issue with carbon bikes I've owned or high end aluminum aka CAAD9 and CAAD10. I have been riding 700x25/28 tires in 80-90 psi for while so that's probably a bigger factor for eliminating buzz. I've only been riding road for 6 years and I've never had a bike where buzz was even a thought for me

Bob Ross

I think the aspect of manufacturing that would most discernably affect the ride is how straight the frame & dropouts are.

rpenmanparker 

But that is not really a variable among decently built frames. I mean if I were a builder, and you asked me to be sure the frame was straight, I would throw you out of the shop. That is really assumed for the vast majority of cases. These aren't amateurs we are talking about.

rpenmanparker 

This is where we disagree. The range of behaviors is not correlated to price. You can get any of the behaviors you are talking about at nearly any price. You are talking about competence, and that is available from modest price all the way up to luxury. If you pay top dollar just to get a competent frame as you are describing, you are overpaying.

Bob Ross

Define "decently". The OP wasn't asking about the difference between a "decently" built frame and an "indecently" built frame, he was asking about the difference between a "high-end" frame and a "low-end" frame. Some of the "low-end" frames out there are indeed "indecently" built, at least in terms of their tolerances for symmetry and parallel faces.


Well, you know what they say about "assuming"... The problem isn't binary; a frame isn't either Straight or Not Straight. So the question becomes How Straight Is Straight Enough? ...and however you answer that defines what you're willing to accept in the bicycling experience. If you were a framebuilder I wouldn't ask you to "make sure the frame is straight" but I would ask (and have asked) what tolerances the frame is built to. I've been told by more than one esteemed framebuilder that the tolerances for straightness/symmetry on the high-end frames they build under their own name are two decimal places finer than the not-so-high-end frames that that same builder used to make for a large American bicycle company.

So... how straight do you want your frame to be? Do you believe a frame whose rear dropouts are +/- 0.1" from center/parallel will ride as well as one whose rear dropouts are +/- 0.001" from center/parallel? Some of the guys who build frames don't, which is why they bother aspiring to such fine tolerances.

Who exactly are we talking about? "High-end" probably doesn't include any amateurs, sure. But at the "low-end", in some cases we are talking about ...maybe not amateurs but definitely unskilled laborers. Do you really think a guy in a Beijing factory making $4/day is going to execute to the same standards as the craftsman whose name is in big letters on the downtube?

fa63

At one point, I had both a Soma Smoothie (low-end) and a Zanconato (high-end). With the same wheels/tires and saddle, the Zanconato rode noticeably better. But that is mass production vs. custom steel; with custom the tubing thicknesses can be optimized for the rider.

PMike

I have a 520 steel Jamis Aurora and a 953 SS IF Crown Jewel. I got both as frame sets only. The Jamis I picked off CL for $65 and the IF frame was given to me. I built up the Jamis with 5700 and I built up the IF with 6800.

I'm not expert on this sort of thing at all. First of all, they are two completely different styles of bike. The Jamis is now set up as a commuter/tourer with a rack on the back. The IF has always been a fast and agile speed/racing bike. Most easy to quantify, the two are worlds apart on aesthetics. The welds and the general craftsmanship on the Jamis aren't even in the same ballpark as the IF. The IF is crazy light compared to the Jamis. I don't know exactly how much because I am not a weight weenie type and didn't weight only the frame sets. The IF is a work of art.

As far as the way they ride, again, it's no comparison. Clearly, they are made to do different things, but the IF is so much more fun to ride. The positioning is much more aggressive and it is a much faster, stiffer, and responsive bike. As far as comfort goes, I'd rather ride on fresh chip seal on the IF over the Jamis.

rpenmanparker 

Right, but as you say, the bikes are intended for different things. The question is this. If IF had built you a bike out of properly selected 520 tubes to the same geometry as the Crown Jewel, you would expect the workmanship to be similar to the Crown Jewel. So how would it handle?

rpenmanparker 

That straightness stuff is just the Kool Aid. No human being can tell the difference in ride among competent, in-specification bikes DUE TO REAL WORLD DROPOUT TOLERANCES. The real difference observed might be 0.01 and 0.001 inch which for a bicycle is negligible, but no "decent" mass producer is manufacturing to just 0.1 inch.

In carbon and aluminum, the best frames in the world are mass produced and are happily ridden by the most finicky riders on the planet. There is no reason that mass produced steel bikes shouldn't be just as competent relative to their artisanal counterparts. No, I don't mean as beautifully brazed or welded, as finely painted. But competent in the riding, that is what I mean. As long as the recipes for the mass produced and artisanal bike are the same, same tubing, same exact design and construction method (brazed, lugged, welded) they should ride the same. Robots are amazing.

BillyD

I still have my first bike, a 1976 Schwinn Continental. It's a tank, a touring bike, weighs 40 pounds at 64cm.

I also own a Bridgestone RB-1, a vintage race bike, weighs almost half as much as the Continental.

I love them both for that smooth ride that only steel can provide, but clearly the RB-1 feels more agile and livelier. I wouldn't attribute that to the grade of steel, but rather to the weight and design differences.

late

Gunnar Sport.

Changed my life. I've done lite touring on it many times. I've also ridden it across Italy, from the Adriatic to the Med.

Gunnar Sport ? Long distance riding in comfort from Gunnar Cycles USA

redlude97

I've ridden some lower end steel(all city/soma/traitor) that feels more responsive and stiff without any buzz compared to some high end steel like rivendells which IMO ride like garbage. Then there are great riding steel bikes like gunnar and davidson

Jarrett2

So in the last couple of years, I sort of set out to answer that question for myself.

I've owned:

Nashbar Touring Bike (4130)
Specialized AWOL (Reynolds 520)
Novara Verita (Reynolds 520)
Fairdale Weekender (4130)
Jamis Eclipse (Reynolds 853)
Gunnar Roadie (True Temper OX Platinum)
Black Mountain Cycles Road (custom drawn, double butted, heat treated Taiwanese steel)

I've also test ridden several other steel bikes along the way.

Long story short, what rpenman has said so far is what I also found to be true.

All modern steel is pretty nice.

While they are noticeably different from riding carbon fiber, aluminum or titanium; all the modern steel bike I've ridden have felt very similar for the most part. They're really not that different other than when they're hanging on the bike store scale.

My favorite one to ride the Black Mountain Cycles frame and its nothing special as far as steel goes. Not the lightest, not the most expensive, but a great mix of all things I like in steel. I prefer it over my higher end steel bikes. Since buying it, I've sold the Reynolds 853 bike and the True Temper OX Platinum bike is also currently for sale.

If you can find one with the ED coating, that will go a long way for peace of mind around rust with the frame. All City, Fairdale and Black Mountain Cycles has it done on some of their frames.