dr_lha

$300 more than the Ritchey when the Ritchey is sold at MSRP. You can get the Ritchey at a discount quite easily, which makes the price difference far higher (more like ~$550). Also Wraith charge an extra $90 for the headset you get included with the Ritchey.

I do like the Wraith though, in fact I tried to buy one, but it didn't work out...

EDIT: Oh and of course, the seat tube collar, you don't need to buy one of those for the Ritchey, because it's built in.

cycledude61

Nice bike. I actually looked at the new Lemond Washoe, which is a steel frame. However, it has a pressed bottom bracket and is a bit pricey.

cycledude61

Initially, yes, but reading through the comments, I slight crack, even if it is in the frame isn't catastrophic. I just need to keep an eye on it. With that said, I don't want it to be my primary road bike, which is why I am leaning toward steel for the long haul.

cycledude61

Where might I get it for a discount? I've looked a number of places online, but only seen it for $1049, except at Performance Bike where it's $1000.

cycledude61

The Fairdale seems like an good buy, especially considering the ENVE fork. Can the Holdsworth be purchased in America or does one have to order it from across the pond?

dr_lha

Actually @rms13 and @RobbieTunes, about the Wraith, what's going on with them?

The website shows a very different looking frame than before. No longer does it mention that they're using Colombus Spirit tubing, and the chainstay has a crimp in it that wasn't on the older frames. So it seems like they're moving to a cheaper tubeset than before, but the price went up to $1390. Still a 3.0lb frame I guess.

rms13

My club had a team deal a couple years ago where all Ritchey was like 20% less then cost. So the frameset was like $600. Like an idiot I didn't buy one because I couldn't justify a new frame at the time. So just find a club or team with a Ritchey deal

dr_lha

Email these guys:

Bicycle Doctor USA Home

Yes, their website is a disaster, but don't be put off by that, they come approved by Ritchey (and me, I got my frame from them).

dr_lha

Are these even available any more? A quick look at LeMonde's website suggests an upcoming carbon bike, and not much else. The company that made the Washoes (Zen Fabrication) shut down in February.

cycledude61

Yes. I emailed them. I had checked and exchanged a few emails with a company rep a month or so ago, then went back to the website which had changed. I emailed and they responded saying they website is under construction in preparation for the new CF frames. The steel frames will still be available if what is was told is correct.

dr_lha

Fair enough, my guess is that they still have stock, but probably aren't making any new ones. The Washoe was pretty spendy, so I doubt they sold too many of them!

cycledude61

I just went to their website. Yes, it is a disaster. But, they have the Rithcey with SRAM Force 22 in my size (556) for $1999. I was a display at a show. I'm looking for a frame, but it's tempting considering the price.

Thanks. I will email them about their cost for the frame set.

Banzai

I have serious lust for the Ritchey Road Logic. Out of all of my bikes, my favorite to ride is my Ritchey Breakaway Cross.

RobbieTunes

You'd have to ask Adam at Wraith. I highly doubt they've increased their margin much, or decreased their cost. I doubt they've changed much of anything, because the cost of changing is high with their production volume (even though the frames are ridiculously cheap for what they can do).

I guarantee if you ask someone at Wraith, they'll answer. I'm defnitely getting another one (or two). My goal is one of each model, but first, I need the Paycheck.....with two sets of wheels.

RoadLight

Hi cycledude61,

The best overview of composite carbon vs metal that I've found is the whitepaper at Calfee Design here. Calfee Design is a world-respected expert. Highly recommended reading.

Personally, I own both. My main road bike---the one I ride 175 miles per week for all of my training---has a composite carbon frame and fork. But I still have my vintage Fuji road bike with quad-butted steel frame from 1985. I had a frame-builder repair/reinforce the seat stays last year and repaint it (one of the seat stays had developed a micro fracture). I could have purchased a new bike for the amount I spent but it was worth it because the bike had some serious sentimental value. It's now my "work" bike when I need to haul the trailer to the store.

If I were going to do some major international touring and would be traveling in third-world areas, I'd use a steel frame and fork so repairs would be easier. Otherwise, I would go with a composite carbon frame and fork.

Generally speaking, I would not mix a carbon fork with a steel frame because it is unnecessary. The primary reason you see carbon forks with metal frames is to reduce the harsh ride of an aluminum frame. A well-designed and well-made steel frame should not need a carbon fork.

I love the ride quality and durability of a well-made composite carbon frame. But it will not fit your budget unless you do what I do and buy used. This takes patience and due diligence---but it's well worth it. I would do the same if I decided to purchase a steel frame. I'd buy used and upgrade the drivetrain and wheels.

Kind regards, RoadLight

rms13

I have a carbon fork to save weight and because my steel frame has a tapered 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 headtube

rpenmanparker 

Don't forget that you also get another 10% store credit at Performance if you are a member of their club. After paying the club fee, that brings the real cost of the frame down to $925. Surely you will need something else from them that you will use the store credit for.

On the other hand, you won't pay tax if you buy off ebay. Do the math I guess and see which deal is really better.

dr_lha

Funny you should say that, them not answering email is one of the reasons I ended up not buying a Wraith.

Jarrett2

My recommendation to people is if you are actively racing on the amateur or professional circuit, then definitely buy the latest plastic race bike that gives you the most competitive advantage in your discipline knowing that those bikes are designed to be short lived and function specific. If not racing, then buy steel.

ColonelSanders

Which carbon framed bikes are you referring to here?

I'm not doubting, I just want to know which ones are very comfortable, as some carbon bikes can be very stiff.

rms13

Yeah, I think they are getting too busy. The first email I sent took like 2 weeks for a reply. But Adam did reply and was extremely apologetic for missing my email and answered my replies much sooner. From what I can tell is that it's just Adam and maybe one other guy and Adam owns another frame building company where I believe he's actually building frames all day. No excuses but I've heard the same about some other small builders that are one man shows as well.

rms13

The two carbon bikes I've owned have been very stiff

dr_lha

Yes, and to be fair, I got an apology from Adam eventually too, but unfortunately by that time I'd already spent my money elsewhere after attempting to contact them several times. As you said, busy, too few staff.

RoadLight

Hi Jarrett2,

Composite frames are not just for racing. Nor are they all designed to be short-lived. Nor are they "plastic" in the usual sense---the carbon fibers are embedded in an epoxy resin. These perceptions of made-for-racing and short-life are only true for some elite racing bikes whose teams receive new bikes every year from their sponsors.

The key is in the design and construction. If a composite frame doesn't have a long lifespan, it isn't the fault of the carbon fibers or the epoxy resin---it was either designed to have a short life (because there were other priorities) or it was poorly designed or poorly constructed. By itself, composite carbon will last longer than titanium, steel and aluminum. Read Calfee Design's White Paper on composite frames and get the facts.

There are bad composite frames the same as there are bad steel frames, bad aluminum frames and bad titanium frames. A good bike can be created with any of these materials---even bamboo! Aluminum is the only frame material that I recommend avoiding under most circumstances because of its inherent fatigue problem.

Some composite racing bikes are designed to be as light as possible for climbing and the designers make them strong where they need to be and make them weak where they can in order to make them light. But this is only one type of composite frame, and to generalize from it to all composite frames, makes as much sense as generalizing about all cars after having only seen a Lamborghini Centenario.

There are so many different types of composite frames available now that it can make your head spin. There are road designs for commuting, touring, endurance, gravel, cobbles, general racing, speed (time trials), climbing and so on. And, increasingly, there are crossover designs that combine elements from several categories. My current favorites are the frames that combine the strength and relaxed geometry of an endurance design with the aerodynamics of a TT design because I ride long distance and often face significant wind.

I started on a steel frame and rode exclusively steel-frame bikes for decades. I still like them and I still own one. In my experience, the ride quality of a well-made steel frame and fork are second only to a well-made composite carbon frame and fork. I'm in a unique position in this regard because I have a high-quality Fuji road bike with a quad-butted steel frame and a high-quality Fuji road bike with a composite carbon frame and fork. Both are the same size and have the same classic road geometry. So I've had lots of opportunity to compare their qualities side-by-side.

Buy what you like and what you can afford. But get the facts and don't believe what you read in forums like this. Talk to people who have demonstrated expertise with frames and who have earned an excellent reputation in the cycling industry. Calfee Design is a good source to trust. They are engineers and cyclists with decades of experience and a world-renowned reputation. They do not coat their information with marketing hyperbole. (I do not represent them nor have any vested interested in them---I only use them as an example because they take the time to educate---something that is needed on this subject because of the multitude of misinformation that continues to circulate.)

Kind regards, RoadLight

RobbieTunes

I have no way of knowing that. It's not a reason I'd skip buying a particular frame, but I understand if you just wanted info. I've never had a problem, and generally heard from Adam Eldridge, owner/founder of Wraith (and Stanridge Speed). He's also active on Facebook, and twitter. Like you, I prefer email, but never had a problem. Sorry to hear that.

I see it's too late now, but I could very likely get you in touch with Wraith. If I had the buckaroos, I'd get one each of the 3 Wraiths, and also a Stanridge, and call it a day. One single speed, one on/off-road, one roadie, and a gem to beat the daylights out of, as intended.