eyeheartny

Which setup would you prefer: a Wahoo Kickr for home training ($950 shipped w/a current coupon) but no onboard power meter on the bike, or a "dumb" trainer like a Kurt Kinetic but an onboard power meter? Not sure which onboard power meter I'd get, but I'm debating which of these overall options to go with.

For context, I'm recovering from shoulder surgery and am almost cleared by my PT to ride, but I'll likely be doing a fair amount of indoor training as I continue to get strength/flexibility back in my shoulder.

Appreciate any thoughts, recommendations, etc!

k_kibbler

Your 2 options are not interchangeable. A Kickr will let you follow app-controlled structured workouts and simulated rides e.g. ride to video or Zwift-type things. You can follow structured workouts on a dumb trainer (and just so we're on the same page, "dumb" here referring to no app-controlled resistance unit) but it's up to you to change gears and/or manually adjust resistance to follow the workout. Simulated rides are not possible, and a PM doesn't change that. On the other hand, a PM gives you power on your outdoors rides, which obviously a trainer can't provide.

Edit to add, if it's just having a power reading that you want, then as along as the dumb trainer can broadcast speed, most decent training apps can (should?) refer to a known power curve for that trainer, and give an estimated power based on your "speed" on the trainer. You don't need an on-bike PM for this. Then again, this only works on those typically fluid-resistance type trainers with no manual resistance control.

Edit again to add, some trainers e.g. Tacx Satori Smart measure and broadcast power, but do not have app-controlled resistance. A trainer like this would negate the need for an on-bike PM for indoor training purposes.

Silvercivic27

Kickr

Athens80

Those are two great options. You can't lose either way.

$950 for a Kickr is a good price. The electronic enhancements to indoor training in recent years -- hardware and software -- make a big difference to me. I ride more hours and with better structure indoors than I did before, and I enjoy it more.

You might be interested in reading Ray Maker's Annual Winter 2016-2017 Bike Trainer Recommendations. It's a great summary of the hardware market.

SCRcat6

If I lived in San Diego, I'd go with the dumb trainer and the power meter. I wouldn't ride indoors there unless I was recovering from an injury, and having a power meter to ride with after I recover would be great. Reality is for me, I live in Northern Wisconsin and we have a trainer season. I'm on Zwift and just upgraded to a 2016 KICKR. If you don't think you'll use the trainer after you recover from your injury, go with a minimum investment. I was on a Performance fluid trainer ($140 on sale) for two years, it's easily capable of providing a tough work out.

Voodoo76

Both good options. How much trainer time do you think you'll ride after rehab? The Kickr is hands down the best trainer I've been on. Big flywheel effect, really smooth.

I get on Zwift 2 to 3 days/week, at least one of those a "Race" or hard group. More due to work and parenting schedule than weather. I don't like night riding & some afternoons are too hot here for solid interval efforts.

PepeM

'Dumb' trainer with power meter without a doubt. In terms of structured workouts, you can do those without a smart trainer just fine, unless you are strongly against changing gears for some reason. You are losing the whole incline simulation thing which is nice but I would much rather have power for my outdoors rides than that.

For the price of a Kickr you could get something like a Vortex + a Powertap Hub. Something worth considering.

If you plan to never ride outside again, then go for a nice trainer. Also if you don't really care about training and just ride for fun, then maybe a smart trainer would be a better choice in that case as it would allow you to ride the simulated hills and then when you go outside you wouldn't need power anyway. But you know how that will go: you will get used to the power measurement from the trainer and then when you go outside you will wonder about your power. You will then buy an external power meter to use outside, but when you compare it to your trainer measurement you'll realize the numbers don't match and that will be frustrating. So if you care about power, get a power meter. If you just want simulated hills and don't really care about power, then the smart trainer might be funnier.

Kelbesq

I just start using a Kurt Kinetic trainer with a stages power meter, and am very happy with it. I bought the power meter originally for on road use, but it's great on a dumb trainer. On a good dumb trainer, changing the resistance is as simple as pedaling at a different cadence or shifting gears.

eyeheartny

I hadn't seen Ray's new article-- thanks for sharing. Bummer that the Stac Zero he writes about in there (silent magnetic trainer) is backordered, that looks like a really nice option. I may just have to wait for that one.

eyeheartny

Appreciate that perspective. Part of my interest in this purchase is that I want to approach my training in a more structured fashion and am planning on doing a bit more indoor riding than you might expect for someone living in San Diego in terms of weather. I live in the urban core of the city, and finding places to do repetitive intervals usually requires driving to some of the less congested parts of town where there also aren't stop lights/signs every 5 feet. So my thinking is that the less fun parts of training can happen indoors early in the morning/in the evening/between work calls (I work from home) on the trainer and I can use my outdoors "real" riding time for more enjoyable fast riding without thinking about building in a structured workout. So that's why I'm considering making a real investment in the trainer. That said, I can see how a non-smart trainer and a separate onboard power meter could still make indoor workouts productive and give me the benefit of power data on all my rides. Tough call.

Seattle Forrest

I live in Seattle, and I opted for the power meter. You can still execute the workouts you describe on a dumb trainer. I guess it comes down to how much you'll value having a power meter outdoors down the line versus how much you'll value the Zwift type stuff.

eyeheartny

You're absolutely, 100% right about how that would go if I got used to riding w/power indoors. I know myself well and that's exactly what would happen.

Not at all opposed to changing gears while training! My new bike is Di2 equipped, so I'll be especially happy shifting gears indoors or out.

I actually have a Vortex right now but I have to get rid of it because my new bike arriving this week has a 12x142 rear and the Vortex doesn't open up wide enough to fit, even with the adapter thru-axle from Tacx. The issue is the trainer's arms are too narrow and the quick-release (on the trainer, not on the bike) that holds the non-drive side can't close. There are apparently some ways to rig it up with a strap (someone even did it with an old power cord for the trainer) but that's just too kludgy, messy, and unpredictable for me. With a sensitive shoulder, I can't risk having the bike come loose while I'm doing a trainer session.

I'm leaning toward a Kurt Kinetic (either the Rock and Roll or the Road Machine) and a Stages or 4iiii crank-based power meter. Not that jazzed about a hub-based one since I wouldn't want to have to tear down/rebuild a wheel. I only have one bike right now and so there's no incentive to be able to switch the meter between bikes. Do you have strong feelings about one particular power meter vs. another?

ingo

I was never an indoor training enthusiast, and was faced with the same choice between a power meter/dumb trainer and the Kickr. I bought the Kickr last month and it has completely changed how I look at indoor training. Since I don't race, a power meter for outside has minimal use other than to monitor my fitness level during routine rides and perhaps as motivation when cranking into a headwind. The smart trainer however has big value for motivation when riding virtual courses and races such as Zwift. I have not raced for 25 years, all of my club rides now are recreational. On Zwift I now race a few times per week and the motivation factor is huge. Indoor sessions have become fun, and the interaction with the pack keeps you motivated for more than an hour easily. When set up correctly, the smart trainers mimic road riding close enough that the scenery goes by at the right pace for your effort. There are virtual climbs in excess of 500m, and I would have to drive 2 hours to find a climb of that size.

If you race, the power meter is invaluable for analyzing your rides afterwards. For fun factor with the ability to do structured workouts, the smart trainer is better. If you race seriously, the $1000 for a smart trainer is not a big deal to add to the training regiment. There are very structured metrics that you can extract from the controlled environment of the smart trainer, logging your race fitness improvement.

silversx80

I've been on both ends, and I have to say that the Kickr is for me. I love riding outdoors, but I hate training outdoors. I also hate training on a dumb trainer. Fact it that there are so many interruptions when training outside, that even getting in a solid 30 minutes of sweet spot training is tough. Also, with a young family, work, etc, the time I can ride is hours before the sun comes up, and literally the last time I did that I was hit by a truck.

The Kickr offers incredible control over structured training, and combined with Zwift, a whole community of people that share the same passions. Leaving my structure inside allows me to unplug when outdoors and focus on other, non-power-related skills, and not getting too wrapped up in over analyzing a ride.

Oh, and my FTP is much higher using the Kickr.

eyeheartny

Dang. Right when I had come to terms with the dumb trainer + power meter being the right path, your comment may have pushed me in the other direction. I agree with you 100% that "training outdoors" sucks, and your point about unplugging when outdoors is a really important one...I am ultra-saturated with tech, data, etc in my everyday life and cycling has been a great way to clear my mind. My tendencies toward being hyper-analytical sometimes take the joy out of stuff since I'm often looking for a "best" way to do something, optimize my efforts, etc. I wonder if actually having less data from outdoor rides and keeping the serious data for indoor training may be the right path.

I think the big question is whether the best use of my $$ is on a solid trainer + power meter, even if I never looked at the data from my outdoor rides. The price essentially is the same, dollar for dollar, between both of these paths.

When you say you "hate training on a dumb trainer," do you mean just riding, or doing structured workouts with data driving those? I'm trying to understand whether the motivating factor for you is the gamification of Zwift (and so it functions as a distraction) or whether the physical experience of the Kickr is somehow superior. Just trying to tease out the factors here.

Appreciate anything else you want to say/have to share.

eyeheartny

What tech setup do you have for using Zwift and virtual courses? The way my home is set up, I don't have a large display where my trainer is set up, and I'd have to find a way to position my laptop so I could watch the course. Not as appealing as on a bigger screen, I think, and most of the time I'd be using my phone as the "head" unit for the power meter and for training.

eyeheartny

A few hours per week on the trainer. I'm coming back from a 6-month layoff due to this shoulder repair so I need to rebuild my base and get back into interval work to build my fitness back up. I can feel how out of shape I am and it's driving me nuts, even though I haven't gained weight/clothes fit fine. I expect that I'll be using the trainer for structured workouts going forward and keep the outdoor time separate.

Jazzguitar

Add me to the list in favor of the Kickr. I have Vector 2 pedals and a Kicker but if I could only keep one it would be the Kickr. My structured training is done indoors and it's nice to be able to let the trainer make the adjustments so I can focus on trying to survive. Having used TrainerRoad and Zwift with a dumb trainer + PM vs now with the Kicker, I can say that there's no comparison and I'd never want to go back.

silversx80

It's kinda difficult to fully express the differences between a smart and dumb trainer for me. Essentially, the Kickr keeps me honest. The preset target is hard to cheat on, and I have no choice but to hold it. Also, I can open up many other training opportunities, like going from low to high cadence and back, holding the same power.

Zwift is a great tool for training. I can go for a "free" ride, select among pre-programmed workouts, create my own workout, join with group rides, and my recent favorite are the races. I also use CycleOps Virtual Training as a tool with the Kickr.


Have you possibly considered a Kickr Snap and a Stages meter? It'll be a little more money, but you'll get the best of both worlds.

SCRcat6

The physical experience of the KICKR is superior to any wheel-on trainer, IMO. Grinding your tire into a roller just doesn't compare to driving a smooth 12lb flywheel directly. And at the same time, Zwift actually makes indoor training fun and a premium trainer like KICKR maximizes the experience. Since you plan to do regular structured training, I'd go KICKR all the way!

ingo

Wahoo fitness for intervals runs on your phone, there's nothing to look at but numbers. Kinomap runs on an iPad, linked to a TV if you wish. I run Zwift on a 27" iMac with the ANT+ dongle for power, HR, cadence, and resistance. They are supposed to get Bluetooth working shortly. If my usage continues, I'll upgrade the living room TV and move the old one downstairs to the trainer. Running on a laptop is more than enough, I started out with a 15" Macbook on Zwift.

Voodoo76

For me intervals on the trainer are a lot more time efficient and controlled/consistent. Don't have to worry about daylight during the "winter". And not fighting the heat during the summer.

eyeheartny

Appreciate the context for sure. You're definitely making a good case for a smart trainer. I think the Kickr Snap may be the right option for the moment. If I've got a good indoor training option I don't necessarily need an onboard power meter. Do I want one? Sure. But if I can benchmark off the Kickr Snap, even if it isn't as accurate as an actual strain-gauge meter, that might be enough for now to give my training some structure, and then I can decide if I want to add a Stages crank in a few months. Dunno. It's a tough call.

Complicating the decision, there's a Craigslist ad for a 1-year old Kurt Kinetic Road Machine about 10 minutes from my house and the seller is asking $150. So...that plus a Stages ends up being a "cheap" option here. Sigh. Still have no idea what route to take here!

RoadLight

Greetings,

I recommend avoiding Wahoo. I own a couple of their products and have been forced to deal with them for support because of problems---their technical support has been very poor. Considering the many problems with their software with such devices as Kickr, Elemnt, Rflkt and their Fitness apps, I would stay away from Wahoo. Don't be confused by some of the Wahoo fans who brag about how responsive they are to fix problems and provide frequent firmware and software updates. The reason for this is because their products are buggy and need frequent updates. You'll be better served buying a trainer from a company that builds better products in the first place that don't require their paying customers to be their unofficial beta testers while they fix their products.

Generally, I'd agree with SCRcat6 that adding a power meter to your bike and getting a "dumb" trainer would provide more flexibility if you need to keep your budget low. I use a Stages Cycling power meter on my road bike. My bike has a SRAM Red crank so I use a Stages power meter on one of Stages' new carbon crank arms. I paid about US$515 for it with a USA Cycling member discount (Stages is a USAC sponsor).

However, if I were in your situation recovering from shoulder surgery, my first consideration would be how much I'd depend on the trainer. If there's a chance that I might be able to ride outdoors frequently as I recover, then mounting my primary bike on a training stand would be less attractive because of the nuisance of having to change the rear wheel or tire each time I mounted or unmounted my bike on the trainer. This is because it is best to use a rear tire made for use with a trainer while the bike is mounted. Either you'll have to change your tire each time you move your bike outdoors/indoors or you'll need to buy a second rear wheel, mount the trainer tire on it and switch rear wheels each time you move your bike outdoors/indoors. Having a second rear wheel and cassette is the easiest but it also requires more money---unless you already have a spare rear wheel and cassette.

If you need to be able to quickly switch between indoor and outdoor training, I'd consider a stand-alone indoor training cycle that doesn't require a bike---unless you have a spare bike to dedicate to the trainer. There are some fairly cheap models on the market that might fit your budget if your use will only be a few months (I've seen several models on Amazon.com for less than US$300.)

If you want a smart trainer so you can participate in a particular social training/competition program like Zwift, then you should check with them and see which smart trainers they support. This should form the basis for your shopping list. For example, here is Zwift's list of supported smart trainers.

Kind regards, RoadLight

eyeheartny

Thanks for the perspective on Wahoo, much appreciated. In terms of the question about how I'll be using the trainer, it's less about the injury-recovery period and more about moving from an acute recovery phase into needing to rebuild my fitness after 5 months of no real exercise whatsoever. I can feel how out of shape I am (despite not gaining any scale weight/clothes fit fine) and know I'm going to need to rebuild my base and really work to regain my fitness. So my thinking is that I want to do my structured training indoors and not try to be doing that on my outdoor rides.

Let's take the wheel issue out of the question. I have a second wheelset so I can have one rear wheel dedicated to trainer duty.

The core issue is what the best use of my money is for the goal of having a reliable indoor training method that will allow me to do power-based workouts. I actually already have a smart trainer (Tacx Vortex) that I got right before my surgery (used less than a dozen times). When I decided to get a new bike to treat myself after surgery and a tough year, it turned out that the Vortex doesn't work with my new bike's rear spacing (12x142), so I'm selling it off. I think the real thing is that I'm not sure what would be best for me. I don't see myself using Zwift (social part doesn't really appeal). If I'm not interested in that aspect of the smart trainer, do you think that a smart trainer no longer makes sense? Honestly part of what draws me to the Kickr is the smooth feel of the flywheel and not having to deal with swapping wheels/etc. But if the feel isn't that great, then a dumb trainer + Stages crank is probably the best way to go. Hard to say though.