dave ford

Hi, I have had a Brooks B17 for about a month now, and it hurt like hell at first on my boney @rse, but eith work and more than a little adjustment it now feels great (you can get the B17 over here in UK for around £25).

So on the weekend I decided to sculpt it a little, and I reckon it looks cool and still feels exactly the same to ride.

Regards Dave

biker7

While I admire your artistic skills...the B-17...which I also ride and think is a great saddle...is configured the way it is for a couple of very good reasons. The B-17 in effect is a stiff hammock....a thick piece of leather stretched between two fixed perches....a very clever design that I might add has ascended to cult status in the ranks of cycling for good reason. What you have done....is cut off a lot of side curvature which gives the Brooks its bending strength...you have taken an inverted U shape and made is more of a flat leather plate. The mechanics are such that the saddle short term will be very compliant as you may have noticed. The downside is too compliant as I believe the saddle now will not hold its shape and will sag in the middle as it has lost all its section strength. There is a secondary reason that Brooks configured the inverted U shape between the front and rear of the saddle...inner thigh chaffing. By cutting the Brooks up on the radius, the edge of the leather is now in contact with your thighs as they reciprocate up and down as you pedal. Be sure to let us know how you like your saddle over time.
Believe me when I tell you that the Brooks designers would have made the saddle as you have changed it to...which would have saved thousands of cows if there was a tangible benefit.
Cheers,
George

dave ford

In the one hundred years that Brooks have made saddles, pros have re-shaped their saddles for wahtever reason with no ill-effects. In fact Brooks at one time had a gallery of customised saddles from their customers on their website. As for the chaffing, I have less now than before the 'chop'. If the side areas were to support the upper then eventaully as the saddle broke in and sagged the side area would flare out causing much discomfort. We'll see I guess.

biker7

It might work for you...also a function of how much you weigh as well. The sides do support the top as it turns out. Is analogous to a U channel or I-section beam in engineering mechanics...considerable section modulus is added by having sides...as they contribute a high degree of stiffnes due to the moment of inertia about the long axis of the sides based upon vertical weight bearing. The same sides of the saddle by contrast are weak in bending...due to the plane of the force based upon your body weight...as is now the top of your modified saddle without the sides. As to chaffing...trimming the sides more inboard as you have will reduce the overall width of the saddle however the edge of the leather is now in more direct contact with your cycling shorts...also a function of your anatomy and how you fit on the saddle. Speaking of Brooks mod's....one long time method for long in the tooth Brooks saddles is to perforate the bottom sides/skirt of the saddle and then tie up the sides under the saddle. This helps a sagging aged Brooks and contributes more section strength and resistance to sagging.
Cheers,
George

Sigurdd50

looks like a Swallow

dave ford

Indeed Sigurdd50, and to my knowledge that has no extra support than mine. All the weight and sit bones are on the widest part and supported. The 'Fixer' who frequents these forums has done many lovely mods and to no detrimental effect to the integrity of the saddle.

biker7

In spite of what you and the Fixer did...when you change the structure of your seat so dramatically...there is no free lunch in design terms. In effect you did replicate the Brooks Swallow profile...with one noteable exception. The Swallow has a horizontal rib riveted across the bottom/middle section of the seat to give the seat its overall bending strength. This rib goes into tension to repel the vertical elongation of the top of the seat due to loading. The presence of this rib functions the same as your thighs restraining the considerable inverted U of the standard B-17 which also keeps the B17 from sagging/bending in the middle. Your modded B-17 does not have this feature and hence the more planar and reduced surface area of the seat platform will elongate more rapidly over time. There is no refuting this. It is a matter of degree.
You may like it...but that is the reality.
George
See below for Brooks Swallow design:

Applehead57

Nice dialogue, Biker 7 & Dave Ford. You were both interesting and professional.
Touch of class.

dave ford

George, what you say does make sense, I would however like to hear from the Fixer on his views of longevity and premature sagging. He has made mods more than once if I recall correctly, and one would assume that if the first was a bad move then he wouldn't have attempted more. Thanks for your input though, it makes interesting reading.

reagards, Dave

cascade168

Hi Dave,
I am just curious ..... What tool/s did you use to cut that down? Hey, it almost looks like a Brooks Swallow now And those are selling for around $300 US ("special limited edition").

Edit: I see now that I am not the only one to notice that ;-)

cascade168

Hi George,
Will he not be able to compensate for sag with the tensioning nut? I realize that you can only go so far with that adjustment, but there IS a lot of adjustment there. Just curious what you think? I am getting ready to buy a Swift and like to see all the comments.

Tks.

velocipedio

what george is trying to say is that "you will burn in hell for this sacrilege, heretic swine."

dave ford

Cascade168: I used a leather cutting knife - Italian FWIW!! I guess if problems did occur then i would tie a couple of laces across the sides.

George, attached is a pic of the latest Swallow, with no obvious strengthening bar, and also one from 1936, again without any apparent strengthening.

TheOtherGuy

Looks great! Here's the same saddle I cut that way. It's got only about 1000 miles on it so far, but no problems. Cutting the sides does give it more flex in the middle, and probably will shorten it's life somewhat... So, I may have to replace it in 15 years instead of 30... I think so long as it's not over-softened with leather treatments, all will be well. I put just a couple of light applications of Proofhide on this one after cutting it. Works great!

dave ford

Welcome to 'The Dark Side' pphhhwaa, hahahahaha!
That looks gorgeous, what saddle bag is that?

biker7

Your words veloci not mine. I think everybody should remove half the spokes from each wheel...looks cool...more aero and less weight...all good right? As to tensioning a Brooks...believe it is Sheldon Brown who writes every single saddle he has seen tensioned has been ruined.
Hopefully someone will chime in and say this is not the case and periodic tensioning does not destroy the overall shape and feel of a Brooks. And "TheOtherGuy" makes a case for cutting the sides off may only reduce the long life of a Brooks by a few years...not imminently ruin it. Believe the answer is rider specific...just like the unaltered saddle life for a 300 lb'er versus a fly weight. As with any structural bike component...design and testing is based upon encompassing a broad cross-section of weight and body types...typically 5-95%. Lastly...Dave as to the revised Brooks Swallow...would have to see underneath it to see what Brooks has done to make any inferences.
George

Wurm

While I understand the idea behind the design of having the 'skirts' on the Brooks', I needed to trim them off with this Professional and in fact, I've cut it back where the ends of the frame start because it was hitting my thighs/glutes there. I had to grind off about 1/2" of the frame ends on either side to get it to fit me better.

Used a heavy carpet razor for cutting the leather, (very carefully!) and a bench grinder and some hand filing for the ends of the frame. After the leather was cut, I used some sandpaper to round-off the sharp edges, and then black shoe polish to darken them.

Now, it fits me much better without cutting into my arse/back of thighs like in stock form. It hasn't sagged or otherwise been a problem that about 1/2 turn of the tensioning nut hasn't cured. The weight went from 554 gm. to 490, so that was a bonus.

I can always do the tying/tightening of the center section if the need ever arises. (Antique Brown Swallow pictured at left for comparison)

Wurm

Well according to his website, Sheldon Brown also soaks his Brooks' in Neat's Foot Oil, so it is no wonder that he's had to tighten the tensioning nuts probably up to their limits.(?) I wouldn't use Neat's Foot or an other kind of oil-based treatment on a Brooks. People that say you shouldn't use "too much" Proofide are wrong. It's a wax, not an oil, so it won't soften the leather to a point where it'll stretch so much as to be unusable.

I've given my Pro several Proofide treatments with no ill effects at all. If it matters: I weigh about 206 lbs. in riding kit, I've had this saddle for approx. 14 months and have ridden it almost every day.

Waxbytes

Even as a jest, it's hard to speak of "everyone " in a cycling context. If I remove half the spokes on the wheels of my favorite bicycle, I'll have eight spoke wheels!

biker7

You can take exception to what Sheldon writes...but you didn't quote him properly. He suggests not tensioning a Brooks at all. I do agree with you on the Neat's Foot oil....I too use only Profide. One may ask why isn't tensioning a Brooks a good thing? The answer is...as the saddle ages the leather fibers break down under load and the saddle cover elongates. Since the amount of material in the saddle is conserved...i.e. the volume of leather doesn't change...its elongation is due to a reduction in thickness and break down of the leather. Subsequent tensionings result in having less and less thickness of leather under the rider as the saddle grows in length. The saddle subsequently loses its spine. The shape of the saddle is hugely important...why I am not a fan of cutting it...as I don't want my saddle to bow down a bit in the middle...but stay more planar to keep my sitz bones back where they belong.
George

biker7

You thought I was serious?...wow.
George

Wurm

Right. I could have assumed too much there with SB. I do remember him recommending the NF oil though. Not IMO a smart thing to do with any Brooks. If you can't ride out the break-in period, then you probably don't get enough time on your rig anyway!

The tensioning argument I think is different for different folks. Personally, I doubt whether I'll need or want to go any further on mine with the tension nut - not unless it is absolutely necessary. Eventually the leather will stretch as you say, and overuse of the nut will only hasten that.

biker7

I believe if I remember correctly Mr. Brown states that using Neats Oil will not only accelerate break in but shorten saddle life fractionally as well which seems to make sense. He as with others may be willing to accept this tradeoff. The B-17 for me was tolerable from the beginning from a comfort standpoint and at about 500 miles I can ride my bike for 40 miles without even padded shorts and not feel any discomfort.
George

Wurm

That's the great thing about a Brooks, (assuming it fits you OK to begin with) - that they can be ridden under less than ideal conditions and still do a good job.

I only wish they'd offer a Ti frame option on all of the non-sprung models instead of just the Swallow, Swift, and B17. (ie: Pro/Team Pro, Colt, women's models)

TheOtherGuy

Thanks. The bag's a Carradice "Barley", and I love it. They come in the green or in black... They're sort of a deluxe small size Carradice.