Chandne

If I don't go with carbon wheels (mainly cost being a factor) I was thinking of a relatively light set of alloy wheels for my BMC. This will be a climbing (and descending bike) in Colorado- Front Range and Summit County, for those familiar with the area. So 4,000-10,000 feet of climbing and 30-80 miles are the rides this bike will be for. I'm trying to build it a bit light...maybe 16 lbs or less.

A couple of builders have said that 24x28 is their choice and one said that it would even provide a better ride quality over 20x24 (HED rims, CK hubs). I could not follow the spoke talk since I am not as familiar with the different spokes besides CX-Rays and DT Super Comps. Also, Dura Ace wheels have 16x20 and people say they hold up well so why not 20x24 at 180 lbs? Just curious and trying to analyze this before pulling the trigger, so to speak.

I'll be running 25 or maybe 23 tires (if clearance is an issue). Prefer slightly wide rims, as long as it is 23mm or above exterior.

Some questions:

Will 24x28 provide a better ride quality over 20x24?
Which spoke choices front and back for a rim-brake wheelset?
Anything better than HED rims? I have used Percenti's Sl23 and it is decent but not great.
HED C2, HED Belgium Plus, or some other rim?

My third alternative (beside ZIP/ENVE, a handbuilt like mentioned above) is simply to look at the Dura Ace 9100 C24 but I do not get a tubeless option there so it is my last choice at this point. Maybe there is a tubeless version...C40 maybe..have to check.

As far as groupset goes, it will be either 9000 or 9100 Dura Ace mechanical.

Carbonfiberboy 

And your weight is?

Chandne

I guess it got buried above...177 lbs today but 175-180. Trying to get to 170 by Dec 31.

FeltF2Tarmac

November's alloy wheel.page (at least for their builds) claims 175bd for 20/24 build and 185 for a 20/28 build . Not sure how others would go with that but I ride 20/28"s at 145lbs just because I wanted a little extra strength not that I needed it.

Chandne

20x28 is an option. My weight is more rearward than most who prefer aero or really low positions in general. Any thoughts on which spokes to use front and back?

PepeM

Are you building the wheels yourself or are you getting a builder to do it for you? If the latter, why not trust him?

Chandne

I'll have a builder do it. The three I contacted have different approaches and spoke-count recommendations so I am trying to get some knowledge here, before I decide.

1) Recommended 24x28 CX Rays or any double-butted
2) Recommended 20x24 CX Ray
3) Recommended 24x28 with a combo of spokes...same with 20x24...different combo of spokes...Laser/Force combo

TimothyH

The latest generation C40/C60 come tubeless but apparently only with thru axle (E-THRU). These are the 9170, not the 9100.

I can't find a tubeless 9100 C24 at all.

The 9000 C24 does come tubeless and prices are cheap.


-Tim-

andr0id

I'm 185- 190 and have ridden 24 front and 28 rear for a decade with no wheel issues. But I watch where I'm going.

If you're lighter, I think you could get away with 20 / 24, but you're trading the weight of 8 spokes for possible wheel problems.

Any of the top end Sapim or DT bladed or butted spokes are fine. Some people are going to give you some voodoo about why one is better in some metaphysical way. Yeah sure.

A rear wheel with lighter spokes on the NDS supposedly will stay truer, but I've never built any this way and never had a problem. I just build wheels and ride them. I throw them on the stand once a year and go, hmmm, nothing to do and put em back on the bike. I used the Sapim CX Rays most of the time or Race for less sporty wheels like my fixed gear bike.

Hiro11

I'm 160 lbs and ride 16/20 road wheels without issue: WH6800s. I know people who are significantly heavier and ride the same wheels without issue. Spoke count is only one factor.

Camilo

I'm about 160-165 nekkid (you do the math for clothed and riding) and have been riding three different sets of 20 front / 24 rear wheels exclusively for about 10 years without ever needing truing, never broken a spoke. The wheels I have are good quality (Reynolds, Mavic) factory built wheels or reputable hand-builts. I have ~ 30mm and 20 mm deep rims with normal width (20 mm?) and a set of 20 mm deep rims with a 23 mm width. Using online wheel builder guidelines, they all say I'm good with the rims and weight, although they say the narrow/shallow rims are marginal, where there's no question I'm OK with the 30mm narrow rims and the 20mm wide rims. Regardless, I haven't had a single issue with any of the wheels.

As for ride quality, I'm interested in hearing what people say. I never notice any "ride quality" issues except that bigger, softer tires are less harsh that narrower, harder tires, regardless of the wheel. I'm not super strong and dont notice any wheel deflection ever.

rpenmanparker 

A rear wheel with lighter spokes on the NDS will not stay any truer than one with lighter spokes on both sides. Thinking otherwise is one of the main misunderstandings in wheel design.

Chandne

Good information for me to ponder. I had a nice set of wheels built with HED Belgium C2s and CX Rays but 32x32 a few years ago. While the wheels were stiff, I felt as though they were a bit too stiff and rode a bit harsh. I had nothing to compare to at the time and it could have just been an inaccurate assessment. 24x28 works well but I am beginning to think that 20x28 and 20x24 will be fine as long as it is a quality build.

exmechanic89

Definitely what I was thinking.

deacon mark

Spokes are your friend. Avoid any trouble go with 24 radial front and 28 rear. If you weight less than 145 pounds I can see less spokes but spokes are your friend for peanuts in weight.

noodle soup

+1

Lighter gauge NDS spokes are sometimes used to get a little more elongation out of the spokes to reduce the chance of those spoke being fatigued at lower tensions.

I'm sure you could explain the theory better, but you know what I mean.

nycphotography

What is your budget?

I have a set of Rolf Elans and at 1350g they are light and sweet to ride. That said, I did kack the hell out of the rear in a bottomless NYC pothole (I was 160ish at the time). Wheel builder had to beat it back out with rubber mallet and true it back up. Dunno why they still have paired spokes. Those are sooooo 2005. lol

Also, dunno if you are aware of them, but check out a set of Boyd 28 carbon clinchers. Under 1400g w/ high temp mountain ready resins, and priced not much more than most alloy wheelsets. I don't personally have a set, but when I rebuild the s-works w/ 11sp, I intend to get some.

FBinNY 

I don't buy into the notion that one can actually feel differences in ride quality with a few more or less spokes. But more spokes allow the use of lighter rims with no loss of strength. If I have a choice of allocating the same amount of steel among more lighter spokes, or fewer stiffer spokes, I'll go for more spokes every time.

Also, since you're in Colorado and mentioned that these are climbing and descending wheels, then IMO you're making a good case for more spokes because it will mean improved lateral stiffness. This isn't a ride quality thing, but can reduce the risk or brake rub when the bike is heeled when climbing, and improve the feel of steering precision on fast corners.

noodle soup

I agree with much of what you said

I'd go with 28/24 C-X Ray spokes, and Stan's or American Classic hoops.

I'm a little heavier than the OP, and never had problems with 24/20, but 28/24(or 20) makes sense.

Doge

A spoke/lacing will often be selected for feel over how sturdy it it.

Number of spoke do not stand alone. Rim/build/material/pattern matters. Lacing front outside flange vs inside (radial) matters.
I put 3-4K miles on a 24 hole rear @220#+ last few years. When I was a svelte 200# (1990?) I went to straight 14g 32 for sprinting as they were stiffer than my 28 double butted daily riders.
cxRays are great spokes. I break a spoke about every decade or so. Last was my Nimble Fly 20hole front on my tandem about 15 years ago.

chaadster

There is so much old-timey, out-of-date, irrelevant mumbo jumbo about wheels out there...I won't even get into it because so much has been said on the matter that you have to be willfuly ignoring the truth at this point if you don't get it.

I will give you a suggestion, however: American Classic Argent wheels.

I've flogged a pair of these for three years under my 225lbs mass, and I believe they are probably the best $1k wheelset you can buy.

They're a 1392gm, 30mm deep alu rimmed with a 19.4mm internal width, tubeless specific wheelst built around a sweet pair of feature-rich hubs.

I've done everything on these from crit racing, to gravel riding, to 60mph downhills, mostly on notoriously poor Michigan roads, and while laying through +1300w sprint capability. I've been in crashes, even a multi-bike pileup with them, which was the cause of the single truing they've needed.

I haven't replaced or futzed with bearings, even though they do group rides in the rain all the time, and they definitely carry speed better than my Mavic Ksyrium Equipes (an excellent 20/20h set, btw) so they have aero benefits, too.

I am just about worn through the sidewall wear indicators now, but I will almost undoubtedly replace with another pair.

Relatedly, and to underscore the point that overall wheel design is what matters, I also have pair of AC Victory30 wheels, which are sort of a "poor man's" Argents, and despite the similarities, are not even close to Argent performance levels. The V30s are nice, but the Argents are really suberb. I run both Schwalbe tubeless, too, and the Argents win there, too, taking 23c tires easily installed by hand and getting the bead evenly seated is a snap.

Jiggle

Spoke count can be reduced for rims with high lateral stiffness, which the Belguim has (wide rims these days are a lot stiffer than the narrower generation). What I really want to know is what you're going for. Looks? Durability? Weight? I'm at 160 and I like 20/24 because it's a pain turning nipples for so many spokes.

Spoke count is totally not correlated with spoke count RIDE QUALITY. If you're having someone else build them, go with their recommendation, I guess 24/28.

....and what this guy said.

Bike Gremlin

Spokes don't affect ride quality in any measurable way. Properly built wheel is as stiff as any other in terms what one can sense.

All things being equal, the more spokes, the stronger a wheel. I don't see much point in going below 36 for that matter, except for a competition.


Yes, provided roads are not too rough, tyres too thing, rider too heavy, a well built 20 spoke wheel will last long. Still though, using the same rim and spokes, a 36 spoke wheel will be a lot stronger. In fact, using more spokes allows for both the rim and the spokes to be weaker (and lighter), still making the final product more robust and durable.

Jiggle

Only 36 spokes? For training I choose nothing less than 54 spokes. After all, why not?

Chandne

I was looking at the Dura Ace wheels due to the light weight. They have a very low spoke count but appear to be durable for even some heavier riders. I was initially wanting to keep it between 1,400-1,500 grams. I then discounted the DA wheels since they are pretty narrow but more importantly, I really cannot easily convert them to tubeless. I have a QR frame too.

Anyway, I'll talk to the builder again. I don't care much about looks though I like my wheels with black spokes and if using CKs, I'd get green or blue hubs maybe, since I have the option. I care more about weight and reliability. I don't want to have a wheel buckle on me but then again, no Dura Ace I know of ever has so maybe I'm good there. People also say DAs feels stiff enough even with 16/20 spokes. I'm using that as my basic comparison set because it is so popular, light, and has a good reputation. It is not my first choice though, due to the reason mentioned.

I may end up not worrying about weight and go with 24x28 but all my bikes are basically that setup and I wanted something a bit lighter so I could build this bike up a bit lighter overall too....without going too fragile.