Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-16-17, 01:11 PM   #51
kbarch 
Senior Member
 
kbarch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Tenafly, NJ
Bikes: Casati Laser La Speciale, Cinelli Vigorelli, Giant Propel Advanced 1, Giant TCX
Posts: 2,890
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
The original point of the thread was that some cyclists are prejudiced against e-bike riders.

Point proved; case closed.
Yup. Pretty conclusively I'd say. So many responders here are SURE he's doing something wrong and can't be more eager to point it out. A guy just wants to tell his side of the story and leave at that, but folks don't like it so they cast even more aspersions on him for not coming back to talk about it within 12 hours hours or whatever. Jeez - I spend a lot of time here but I don't think one shouldn't have to live here to contribute. It's actually refreshing to hear a new voice now and then.
kbarch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 01:22 PM   #52
Athens80
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 990
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
The OP is not riding an e-bike.

If it goes over 20 MPH using the motor then it isn't an e-bike but a moped or motorcycle.

He is not allowed to ride it on the trials and MUPs.
http://www.oregon.gov/odot/dmv/docs/vcb814.pdf
If I saw him going 28 MPH on the MUP without pedaling I would call the police.


-Tim-
As in Oregon Laws Vol. 17 Chapter 801 Section 801.258
Quote:
"Electric assisted bicycle" means a vehicle that:
(1) Is designed to be operated on the ground on wheels;
(2) Has a seat or saddle for use of the rider;
(3) Is designed to travel with not more than three wheels in contact with the ground;
(4) Has both fully operative pedals for human propulsion and an electric motor;
(5) Is equipped with an electric motor that:
(a) Has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts;
(b) Is incapable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of greater than 20 miles per hour on level ground.
[1997 c.400 §2; 1999 c.59 §233]
Athens80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 03:21 PM   #53
Steve B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South shore, L.I., NY
Bikes: Flyxii FR322, Soma Smoothie, Miyata City Liner, Specialized FSR Comp, Fuji Professional
Posts: 1,735
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 299 Post(s)
These things are all over the place in NYC, as BTW, where it is also illegal to sell or ride them. But then again, NYC has some of the dumbest nanny state laws in the country. They are certainly illegal to use on a MUP.
Steve B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 03:26 PM   #54
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 30,071
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 692 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
There is a "trail" out here which is pan-flat and arrow straight for about 60 miles. People use it to practice time trials. Why would a guy on a tri-bike doing 32 mph be more of a hazard than someone doing 26 on an e-bike? I guess I need more education.


Depending on circumstances that might not be appropriate either.

But if you can hold 32mph on a TT bike, odds are pretty good that you've ridden enough to have some bike handling skills, and the experience to develop some judgment, as opposed to being propelled to a speed above your skill on a contrivance you may have just bought.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 03:28 PM   #55
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 30,071
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 692 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarch View Post
Yup. Pretty conclusively I'd say. So many responders here are SURE he's doing something wrong and can't be more eager to point it out. A guy just wants to tell his side of the story and leave at that, but folks don't like it so they cast even more aspersions on him for not coming back to talk about it within 12 hours hours or whatever. Jeez - I spend a lot of time here but I don't think one shouldn't have to live here to contribute. It's actually refreshing to hear a new voice now and then.
No, the dude wanted to troll us with an inflammatoryly worded post, and we, myself included, took the bait
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 04:48 PM   #56
kbarch 
Senior Member
 
kbarch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Tenafly, NJ
Bikes: Casati Laser La Speciale, Cinelli Vigorelli, Giant Propel Advanced 1, Giant TCX
Posts: 2,890
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
No, the dude wanted to troll us with an inflammatoryly worded post, and we, myself included, took the bait
Hmmm... I don't know - some people take offense at being referred to as "bro" or "dude," so maybe he got off on the wrong foot, but I don't see how one could be so sure about it being inflammatory. On the contrary, although it wasn't entirely conciliatory, I got the impression it tried to be.

I know I've been irritated by riders of e-bikes even on regular city streets, going not much faster than I go myself, and I know that I take particular offense at their slightest infractions. I take offense at the ease and insouciance with which they commit them more than I take offense at the infractions per se. But I'd really rather not get all indignant and judgmental, I'd rather get along, so I appreciate what he was saying and his attempt at reaching out, however clumsy, unsuccessful or ironic as it may have been. Nobody's going to make me ride an e-bike if I don't want to, and no good reason I should deny them the opportunity or resent the advantages it brings them.
kbarch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 05:25 PM   #57
f4rrest 
Farmer tan
 
f4rrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Burbank, CA
Bikes: Allez, SuperSix Evo
Posts: 4,573
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 975 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
There is a "trail" out here which is pan-flat and arrow straight for about 60 miles. People use it to practice time trials. Why would a guy on a tri-bike doing 32 mph be more of a hazard than someone doing 26 on an e-bike? I guess I need more education.

It is an Attitude. it is an emotional response in no way based on fact, made with insufficient information, by someone who just want to to hurt another person.

If I saw anyone on any sort of conveyance, even inline skates, even just running, who was causing danger, I would report that or take whatever action was appropriate. Thing is, I am not going around looking for a chance to hurt people. Timothy H usually has very well-considered opinions and solid facts. Here I think his emotion is swaying his better judgment.

In the original story, the guy was riding at 26 mph on the MUP---Right Next to a Cyclist. How was one a life-threatening risk but the other was okay?
Obviously...

e-bikes have disc brakes. TT bikes don't.
f4rrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 05:48 PM   #58
UniChris
Senior Member
 
UniChris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: NYC
Bikes: 36" Unicycle
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarch View Post
Y So many responders here are SURE he's doing something wrong.
Going substantially faster than typical traffic and the speeds a route was designed for is inherently a cause for concern, regardless of power source.

Doing so under muscle power at least has the argument of achievement in its favor, though specific circumstances will determine if that is or isn't redeeming - criticism of those who think the neighborhood route is the tour de France is already well entrenched.

But doing so with a motor? Take your motorcyle back to the road where it belongs, and get a license which can be suspended for violations, like the driver of any other powered high speed vehicle.

If someone wants to ride an assisted bike like a bicycle only those looking hard will object.

It's using a motor to do something that is both inappropriate to the conditions and not within the capability of your body that rightly raises ire.

Last edited by UniChris; 07-16-17 at 05:53 PM.
UniChris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 05:49 PM   #59
nycphotography
NYC
 
nycphotography's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 3,062
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 743 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
But if you can hold 32mph on a TT bike, odds are pretty good that you've ridden enough to have some bike handling skills....
You've obviously never actually seen a triathlete on their TT bike.
nycphotography is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 05:50 PM   #60
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Posts: 5,760
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2032 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by f4rrest View Post
Obviously...

e-bikes have disc brakes. TT bikes don't.
We have a winner!!!

of something, of some sort ... but a truly great response nonetheless.

But .... what if the TT bike is asploding crabon?
Maelochs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 06:14 PM   #61
Bathwater
Senior Member
 
Bathwater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: In my car with my Garmin, stealing all your Strava KOMs
Bikes:
Posts: 317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
TS needs to man the F up. I take my Ducati Monster on the MUP tear that mother up.
Bathwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 06:19 PM   #62
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 30,071
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 692 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycphotography View Post
You've obviously never actually seen a triathlete on their TT bike.
I get the point, but I'm going to give the benefit of doubt to anyone, including a triathlete that can hold 32 mph

Last edited by merlinextraligh; 07-16-17 at 06:37 PM.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 06:25 PM   #63
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 30,071
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 692 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarch View Post
Hmmm... I don't know - some people take offense at being referred to as "bro" or "dude," so maybe he got off on the wrong foot,
Posting on the road forum about passing people on a mup at 28 mph, I take as trolling.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 06:29 PM   #64
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 30,071
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 692 Post(s)
Broader point, in the US at least, motorized two wheel vehicle that does 28mph under assist, is a motorcycle and has no place on a mup, in a bike lane, or in the road forum.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 06:34 PM   #65
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 30,071
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 692 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
The original point of the thread was that some cyclists are prejudiced against e-bike riders.

Point proved; case closed.
Not biased against them. ( I actually have considered purchasing a velomobile, with enough electric assist to help with the weight just on climbs)

I just see no relevance to me, how I ride, and the sport of road cycling in general.

Given that I don't have much trouble maintaining 20 mph (max legal boosted speed in the US) I see no advantage.

Anyone wants to ride one to commute or otherwise, knock yourself out.

But don't bring a motorcycle on the MUP
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 07:51 PM   #66
kbarch 
Senior Member
 
kbarch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Tenafly, NJ
Bikes: Casati Laser La Speciale, Cinelli Vigorelli, Giant Propel Advanced 1, Giant TCX
Posts: 2,890
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
Going substantially faster than typical traffic and the speeds a route was designed for is inherently a cause for concern, regardless of power source.

Doing so under muscle power at least has the argument of achievement in its favor, though specific circumstances will determine if that is or isn't redeeming - criticism of those who think the neighborhood route is the tour de France is already well entrenched.
...
If someone wants to ride an assisted bike like a bicycle only those looking hard will object.

It's using a motor to do something that is inappropriate to the conditions... that rightly raises ire.
Very well put - I agree (at least as edited). I'm just not as convinced (or obsessed) as other seem to be that the OP was doing anything "inappropriate to the conditions."

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Posting on the road forum about passing people on a mup at 28 mph, I take as trolling.
OK: you'll give anyone, even a TT bike rider, the benefit of the doubt, just not a e-bike rider. Seriously, lots of folks without motors make claims about easily passing people at 28-32 mph uphill or whatever and I don't give them the benefit, I just doubt them. So, since lots of folks here are trolls now and then, I guess that wasn't such a mean thing to say.

By the way, since you've looked into it, you should know that federal law categorizes bikes where the motors are less than 750 watts and that have a motor-powered speed* of less than 20mph when ridden by a 170 lb operator as "low speed electric bicycles," which are NOT motor vehicles. Of course state laws are inconsistent - literally and figuratively all over the map. In New York, they're illegal (but notoriously commonplace and sold openly), but in Oregon, they can have 1000 watt motors and still be considered bicycles (i.e., not motor vehicles and you don't need a license). Regardless, is there anything preventing or prohibiting a person on such a low-speed electric bicycle from making it go faster than 20 mph? Would it be difficult? I think not. I bet a reasonably healthy person can make it go 24-26 mph on the flats as long as the batteries will last; however, it might take a strong rider to make it go much above 28 for long - and you know why. It's not really an outrageous achievement for a cyclist on a road bike - it's just outrageous that it would be relatively easy.

* By the way, the Federal categorization based on motor power (not "boosted speed" or "assisted speed") is a matter of product safety regulations, not traffic safety or operator responsibilities as state laws are.

Last edited by kbarch; 07-16-17 at 08:29 PM. Reason: to expand and clarify edited quote
kbarch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 08:16 PM   #67
znomit
Zoom zoom zoom zoom bonk
 
znomit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Zealand
Bikes: Giant Defy Composite, Trek 1.7c, Avanti Circa, Nishiki SL1, BMC GF02
Posts: 3,449
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
The Bosch pedal assist systems are usually 15mph, but there is a ludicrous 28mph sport model.

Falling off at 15 hurts, but at 28 you'll at least need new skin somewhere.
znomit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 08:19 PM   #68
PepeM
Senior Member
 
PepeM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Bikes:
Posts: 5,928
Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1991 Post(s)
Such a BF thread. Love this place.
PepeM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-17, 08:57 PM   #69
BillyD
Administrator
 
BillyD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene '04; Bridgestone RB-1 '92
Posts: 20,506
Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2538 Post(s)
How could you not?
__________________
See, this is why we can't have nice things. - - smarkinson
Where else but the internet can a bunch of cyclists go and be the tough guy? - - jdon
Titanium and Steel Divisions
BillyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-17, 06:02 AM   #70
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 30,071
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 692 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarch View Post
"


I bet a reasonably healthy person can make it go 24-26 mph on the flats as long as the batteries will last; however, it might take a strong rider to make it go much above 28 for long - and you know why. It's not really an outrageous achievement for a cyclist on a road bike - it's just outrageous that it would be relatively easy.

* By the way, the Federal categorization based on motor power (not "boosted speed" or "assisted speed") is a matter of product safety regulations, not traffic safety or operator responsibilities as state laws are.

I'll admit I've never ridden one, but it's my impression that to meet the Federal standard as a low powered bicycle the assist cuts out above 20 mph.

So to push it from 20 to 26mph you're on your own, and you're doing it on what is now a very heavy , un aero unassisted bike.

So a federal complianti ebike doesn't seem to be the tool of choice if you want to ride faster than 20mph
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-17, 06:42 AM   #71
kbarch 
Senior Member
 
kbarch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Tenafly, NJ
Bikes: Casati Laser La Speciale, Cinelli Vigorelli, Giant Propel Advanced 1, Giant TCX
Posts: 2,890
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
I'll admit I've never ridden one, but it's my impression that to meet the Federal standard as a low powered bicycle the assist cuts out above 20 mph.

So to push it from 20 to 26mph you're on your own, and you're doing it on what is now a very heavy , un aero unassisted bike.

So a federal complianti ebike doesn't seem to be the tool of choice if you want to ride faster than 20mph
Yes, if it cuts off, it wouldn't be any help Interestingly, some state laws stipulate a maximum speed for the vehicle-sometimes 20, sometimes 30, sometimes unlimited, and they have varying limits on motor power or size, but few define max speed in terms of motor power the way federal product safety guidelines do. Anyhow, if it doesn't cut out, it would be like getting a push, and in my experience, a little goes a long way.
I rode a moped (gas) once a LONG time ago. I don't think it could have carried me more than 10 mph on its own if I didn't pedal now and then, but it did make it easy to maintain better speeds and a lot easier to get going.... What I've seen of e-bikes seems very different, though, but maybe it's just that they're quiet/stealthy.
kbarch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-17, 08:03 AM   #72
memebag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Houston, TX
Bikes: 2017 Cannondale CAAD12 105, 2014 Giant Escape City
Posts: 1,045
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
There is a "trail" out here which is pan-flat and arrow straight for about 60 miles. People use it to practice time trials. Why would a guy on a tri-bike doing 32 mph be more of a hazard than someone doing 26 on an e-bike? I guess I need more education.
Like I said before, the e-ness of the bike isn't the problem. Any kind of bike going that fast on a multi-use path with pedestrians is too dangerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
In the original story, the guy was riding at 26 mph on the MUP---Right Next to a Cyclist. How was one a life-threatening risk but the other was okay?
Neither are OK. Slow down on the MUP.
memebag is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-17, 08:25 AM   #73
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Bikes:
Posts: 7,909
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 408 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by memebag View Post
Like I said before, the e-ness of the bike isn't the problem. Any kind of bike going that fast on a multi-use path with pedestrians is too dangerous.
They aren't dangerous if ridden with common sense and slower speeds when passing pedestrians.

I rode on a rails to trails path recently that was paved and quite wide. The path was about 25km long with a 1% grade in many places making it quite easy to go above 45kph. I wouldn't slow for joggers or oncoming single cyclists but would slow down for kids or when passing from behind. Usually, coasting a while with a noisy rear hub was enough to signal my presence. Unleashed dogs also require slower speeds.
gregf83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-17, 08:49 AM   #74
RPK79
Senior Member
 
RPK79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Quintana Roo Kilo
Posts: 9,508
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1553 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
What was the question?
I don't know, but I'm thinking about getting one of these bikes for next weekend.
RPK79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-17, 08:56 AM   #75
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Bikes: 2009 Jamis Xenith, 2016 Diamondback Haanjo
Posts: 17,890
Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3699 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
I don't know, but I'm thinking about getting one of these bikes for next weekend.
Sweet - I won't have to pull at all!
WhyFi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:44 AM.


 
  • Ask a Question
    get answers from real people!
Click to start entering your question.
I HAVE A QUESTION