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Update: Deng Fu R01/R02 - Broke it yesterday :)

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Update: Deng Fu R01/R02 - Broke it yesterday :)

Old 09-18-17, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
You have cracked two bikes...one with a known pedigree.

Are you a big strong guy? Any idea how many watts you lay down?
Can you describe what circumstances each frame failed?
If you are a real big rider, than with that amount of post showing, you likely need a 400mm post.
Glad you are OK to ride another day.
Thanks for the sentiment.
I believe the post is 400mm in length, will check tonite.

Big/strong.... not really. 157-160lbs. race masters 123.
peak power is ~1300
FTP around 275

The Spec. S-Works 2014 sl4 cracked after the bike fell over, it was leaned against a fence on a ride. I picked it up, noticed a scratch on the seatstay and LBS suspected a crack. Sent it to Calfee and they said yes thats a crack, and found two more on opposite seat and chain stay that had no involvement/contact in the fall-over.
I decided to turn that frame in and take advantage of the crash replacement s-works sl5 which I sold to a friend since I had just bought a team bike - BH G6 pro - which, has not cracked


By the way, obviously this is an internet forum and I don't know any of you, what type of cycling you do, and visca versa.
I generally ride with masters competitive guys/gals - I'd have no problem counting off on all fingers guys who have broken at least one carbon frame...be it through a crash or just a freak stress break while riding. So I'm not convinced that my having broken two carbon frames is really that odd for a amateur competitive cyclist.

Last edited by 67stang; 09-18-17 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 09-18-17, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 67stang
Thanks for the sentiment.
I believe the post is 400mm in length, will check tonite.

Big/strong.... not really. 157-160lbs. race masters 123.
peak power is ~1300
FTP around 275

The Spec. S-Works 2014 sl4 cracked after the bike fell over, it was leaned against a fence on a ride. I picked it up, noticed a scratch on the seatstay and LBS suspected a crack. Sent it to Calfee and they said yes thats a crack, and found two more on opposite seat and chain stay that had no involvement/contact in the fall-over.
I decided to turn that frame in and take advantage of the crash replacement s-works sl5 which I sold to a friend since I had just bought a team bike - BH G6 pro - which, has not cracked


By the way, obviously this is an internet forum and I don't know any of you, what type of cycling you do, and visca versa.
I generally ride with masters competitive guys/gals - I'd have no problem counting off on all fingers guys who have broken at least one carbon frame...be it through a crash or just a freak stress break while riding. So I'm not convinced that my having broken two carbon frames is really that odd for a amateur competitive cyclist.
I personally wasn't suggesting breaking two frames is odd.
By your numbers, you aren't a brute by any stretch...just a good amateur rider. I know big strong guys tend to break frames at a much higher frequency than weak riders and why I asked. Big guys I ride with also tend to break more spokes as a general rule...even with custom wheels from time to time.

Good luck with the replacement.
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Old 09-18-17, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 67stang
Marcus, Redfooj, and other snowflakes who continue to be offended that I skirted paypal fees....
I wonder if any of you have ever read what the Pay Pal protection actually covers?
It does NOT protect you on a warranty issue. It might protect you on a fraud issue (e.g. you don't receive the product or get a box of rocks) I have pasted the link below in case some of you want to actually inform yourselves rather than trying to **** on this discussion every few minutes....

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mp...y-and-security
I don't think any of us were offended at you at all. We're merely pointing out shady/dishonest behavior on the part of the merchant/manufacturer you worked with. Such merchant behavior is not legitimate or normal, and PayPal would get after them for misusing and abusing their platform. For a company that strives for an air of legitimacy like Specialized et al--the act stinks.


Be free to be snippy and put words in our keyboards.
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Old 09-18-17, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
I don't think any of us were offended at you at all. We're merely pointing out shady/dishonest behavior on the part of the merchant/manufacturer you worked with. Such merchant behavior is not legitimate or normal, and PayPal would get after them for misusing and abusing their platform. For a company that strives for an air of legitimacy like Specialized et al--the act stinks.


Be free to be snippy and put words in our keyboards.
Well if you go back and read my original thread redfooj clearly has a much deeper issue with how I conducted the transaction. Not that I give a s*** but I am annoyed. First of all I asked for a discount and we mutually agreed on how to save a little bit of money by not paying a portion of the PayPal fee. Is that makes a vendor or a buyer in my case Shady to you then you're a more ethical man that I am, I will send you a box of Kudos this Christmas.

Now to be clear I know some incredibly reputable Merchants who skirt the PayPal fee system most of those Merchants sell on eBay and don't like being hit twice with fees. Yeah I get it you have a fiduciary issue with that but guess what I don't.
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Old 09-18-17, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 67stang
Well if you go back and read my original thread redfooj clearly has a much deeper issue with how I conducted the transaction. Not that I give a s*** but I am annoyed. First of all I asked for a discount and we mutually agreed on how to save a little bit of money by not paying a portion of the PayPal fee. Is that makes a vendor or a buyer in my case Shady to you then you're a more ethical man that I am, I will send you a box of Kudos this Christmas.

Now to be clear I know some incredibly reputable Merchants who skirt the PayPal fee system most of those Merchants sell on eBay and don't like being hit twice with fees. Yeah I get it you have a fiduciary issue with that but guess what I don't.
Wait...paypal charges? How much?

For that matter...wtf is paypal anyway? What's wrong with a credit/debit card?
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Old 09-18-17, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman
Wait...paypal charges? How much?

For that matter...wtf is paypal anyway?
it's an absolutely awful way to send or receive money thru a bunch of hucksters. Had an account for 15 years, not one claim against me or by me against anyone else.
Recently had my account frozen, they couldn't really tell me why. Want me to send them a pic of drivers license and a paper copy of my utility bill. Only way to unfreeze it. Luckily I didn't have any money in the account, there have been cases where people have had thousands or tens of thousands of dollars frozen for 6 months. Paypal has been sued and lost, but didn't learn anything.
I certainly won't shed a tear for them, I hope they go bankrupt and fold up shop
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Old 09-18-17, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by draganm
it's an absolutely awful way to send or receive money thru a bunch of hucksters. Had an account for 15 years, not one claim against me or by me against anyone else.
Recently had my account frozen, they couldn't really tell me why. Want me to send them a pic of drivers license and a paper copy of my utility bill. Only way to unfreeze it. Luckily I didn't have any money in the account, there have been cases where people have had thousands or tens of thousands of dollars frozen for 6 months. Paypal has been sued and lost, but didn't learn anything.
I certainly won't shed a tear for them, I hope they go bankrupt and fold up shop
You were maybe being scammed by a third party.
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Old 09-18-17, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by draganm
it's an absolutely awful way to send or receive money thru a bunch of hucksters. Had an account for 15 years, not one claim against me or by me against anyone else.
Recently had my account frozen, they couldn't really tell me why. Want me to send them a pic of drivers license and a paper copy of my utility bill. Only way to unfreeze it. Luckily I didn't have any money in the account, there have been cases where people have had thousands or tens of thousands of dollars frozen for 6 months. Paypal has been sued and lost, but didn't learn anything.
I certainly won't shed a tear for them, I hope they go bankrupt and fold up shop
PayPal rules man. Brilliant.
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Old 09-18-17, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman
Wait...paypal charges? How much?

For that matter...wtf is paypal anyway? What's wrong with a credit/debit card?
I'll let redfooj and MarcusTi sing you the praises of Pay Pal, they probably have some koolaid left over too
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Old 09-18-17, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman
Wait...paypal charges? How much?

For that matter...wtf is paypal anyway? What's wrong with a credit/debit card?
PayPal charges the bussiness a precentage of the sale and some places pass it on to you if you choose to use it. But so do all credit cards they also charge a bussiness a fee but each one varies
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Old 09-18-17, 11:57 PM
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Old 09-19-17, 02:51 AM
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PayPal is a secure way to do business with private sellers who don't use credit card services and a decent way to do business with anyone else.

People in large enough numbers will represent every slice of humanity ... including people who break frames and people who hate PayPal ... and people who hate people who break frames and use PayPal.

I don't fit into any of those groups.

I will be very interested in how all the autopsy results.

(Good thing this isn't a thread about PayPal .... )
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Old 09-19-17, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
PayPal rules man. Brilliant.
Originally Posted by Maelochs
PayPal is a secure way to do business with private sellers who don't use credit card services and a decent way to do business with anyone else.
Incorrect.

Paypal is Western Union on a power trip. They're not a bank, they're not FDIC insured, and they regularly overstep their bounds and make a mess of people's finances, particularly sellers.
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Old 09-19-17, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
PayPal is a secure way to do business with private sellers who don't use credit card services and a decent way to do business with anyone else.

People in large enough numbers will represent every slice of humanity ... including people who break frames and people who hate PayPal ... and people who hate people who break frames and use PayPal.

I don't fit into any of those groups.

I will be very interested in how all the autopsy results.

(Good thing this isn't a thread about PayPal .... )
What about people who break PayPal and hate frames?
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Old 09-19-17, 07:53 AM
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Broken haters who have been framed by PayPal?
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Old 09-19-17, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Incorrect.

Paypal is Western Union on a power trip. They're not a bank, they're not FDIC insured, and they regularly overstep their bounds and make a mess of people's finances, particularly sellers.
I don't see the problem. Their fees are no higher than credit card fees. Just as with credit cards the decision whether to bear the expense of the fees rests with the merchant.

Why do they need to be a bank? Why do they need to be insured? They aren't holding my money. If I have a balance, I take it out immediately. But most importantly, do you know of an alternative service that allows small merchants to accept secure, online payments in any currency without resorting to a credit card acceptance structure. How would we be better off without PayPal?
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Old 09-19-17, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
I don't see the problem. Their fees are no higher than credit card fees. Just as with credit cards the decision whether to bear the expense of the fees rests with the merchant.

Why do they need to be a bank? Why do they need to be insured? They aren't holding my money. If I have a balance, I take it out immediately. But most importantly, do you know of an alternative service that allows small merchants to accept secure, online payments in any currency without resorting to a credit card acceptance structure. How would we be better off without PayPal?
Fees are neither here nor there - I have no problem with fees.

They actively encourage users to hold a balance - you may not, but others do, likely believing that it's as safe as being in their bank account, which it's not.

Also, that they have not held your funds doesn't mean that it doesn't happen all the time - it does and it's not something that they're licensed to do; I mentioned Western Union because Paypal has the same licensing - they can transmit funds, nothing else. Withholding funds, returning funds, seller/customer arbitration, etc - none of that is within their authority.

"How would we be off...?" Again, you confuse your personal experience with that of everyone. Many have been burned by Paypal; that you haven't experienced the short end of the stick doesn't mean that it's all hunky dory.
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Old 09-19-17, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by 67stang
Quick update to my post in March 2017 where I bought/built a Deng Fu R01 frameset.
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...l#post19586025

6 months of riding and honestly feeling it was as nice of a bike in terms of riding/handling as any other, yesterday it failed. 96 miles into a 100 miles ride, hit a little rise in the asphalt (not a pothole technically) and heard a 'snap' - definitely the sound of carbon. Initial though was maybe a rock or something hit the downtube. I didn't lose control and kept on riding to finish off the ride.

Checked the bike afterwards and sure enough, major failure on the seat tube approx where the seat post would end.

I have emailed Deng Fu with pictures. Not really too concerned about losing the ~$700-800 I paid, as it was an experiment worth taking in my book. But I am curious what their response will be and how they chose to handle this.

In any case, unfortunately, I don't think I'll go the chinese frame route any more unless there is very compelling reason why this failure was an anomaly.

I saw a Cervelo R3 do the exact same thing.
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Old 09-19-17, 09:03 AM
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So I believe I read every paypal...err I mean post in this thread and I don't think I saw it mentioned. ANY chance that the frame was EVER clamped in that location a repair stand?
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Old 09-19-17, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by 69chevy
I saw a Cervelo R3 do the exact same thing.
Same factory.
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Old 09-19-17, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Fees are neither here nor there - I have no problem with fees.

They actively encourage users to hold a balance - you may not, but others do, likely believing that it's as safe as being in their bank account, which it's not.

Also, that they have not held your funds doesn't mean that it doesn't happen all the time - it does and it's not something that they're licensed to do; I mentioned Western Union because Paypal has the same licensing - they can transmit funds, nothing else. Withholding funds, returning funds, seller/customer arbitration, etc - none of that is within their authority.

"How would we be off...?" Again, you confuse your personal experience with that of everyone. Many have been burned by Paypal; that you haven't experienced the short end of the stick doesn't mean that it's all hunky dory.
I hear you, but I am not confusing my experience with anyone else's at all. I am aware that there have been some reasons for dissatisfaction. In my own case I have had my payment funds held for a few days awaiting shipment and delivery of the merchandise by the seller. I could see those sellers being antsy about that. And I allow that there have been some severe screw ups...just like every other online business. But that doesn't add up them being the Evil Empire. So I'll ask again, lacking a comparable but better operated substitute, who would be better off without PayPal.

By the way, on the level of a small business, self-insuring for a small amount of petty operating cash that you leave on deposit with PayPal is not unreasonable. The loss of it would not be catastrophic. And you can't blame PayPal for users' stupidity if they are stupid enough to leave larger sums on deposit. Withdrawing your money is easy and free. There is no reason not to do it except to avoid credit card fees when making payments. The amounts needed for that purpose don't have to be onerous.
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Old 09-19-17, 09:22 AM
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I shamefully admit to using Paypal and finding it quite convenient, even if its creator is a total wanker.
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Old 09-19-17, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
I don't see the problem. Their fees are no higher than credit card fees. Just as with credit cards the decision whether to bear the expense of the fees rests with the merchant.

Why do they need to be a bank? Why do they need to be insured? They aren't holding my money. If I have a balance, I take it out immediately. But most importantly, do you know of an alternative service that allows small merchants to accept secure, online payments in any currency without resorting to a credit card acceptance structure. How would we be better off without PayPal?
The world is full of people who don't see the problem with violating and wrecking other peoples lives because hey it must be their own fault or it wouldn't be happening to them, or mostly just because they don't really bother to stop and think about what if it happened to them.

The problem is that in any "litigation" process that is company owned and internal, the end result will almost always protect the interest of the company and not the interests of anyone else. This really goes against every thing the US is built on and stands for. IMO, it is also contributing to somewhat too the "wall st recovery that has left main street behind". The big commercial interests are being served and the individuals are increasingly left to eat cake. Now it hasn't broken down yet... but this trend is definitely not healthy for the country and probably not for the world either.

Paypal takes arbitrary and sometimes devastating actions against people, sometimes completely destroying their livelihood, and there is no effective check, balance or due process to which an aggrieved party can appeal. Google does the same thing with their revenue producing products like adsense.

While one can argue "just don't do business with A or B and you won't have anything to worry about" that sophomoric argument fall flat when A or B represent over half the market share. Imagine monetizing a publishing enterprise today without Google and tell me how successful you'll be?

When amazon, ebay, paypal, google and facebook eventually control 75% of ecommerce.... This lack of checks and balances will be untenable. It already is really. But it will have to reach the point where it's obvious even for the people who don't like to think too hard about things, and then it will still require a couple poster child examples before anyone can really work up the energy to care. Hopefully by then it won't be too late.

Do we have any historical references that may shed any light on how human nature will manifest itself with good will and decency given such a concentration of economic power? Yes, I think we might:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism

Sorry for the ramble... but this is effectively why Paypal (as it is currently operated) is vile and evil.
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Old 09-19-17, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
I hear you, but I am not confusing my experience with anyone else's at all. I am aware that there have been some reasons for dissatisfaction. In my own case I have had my payment funds held for a few days awaiting shipment and delivery of the merchandise by the seller. I could see those sellers being antsy about that. And I allow that there have been some severe screw ups...just like every other online business. But that doesn't add up them being the Evil Empire. So I'll ask again, lacking a comparable but better operated substitute, who would be better off without PayPal.
Who would be better off? The people that got screwed over by them. Their stories are readily available with a search - feel free.

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
By the way, on the level of a small business, self-insuring for a small amount of petty operating cash that you leave on deposit with PayPal is not unreasonable. The loss of it would not be catastrophic. And you can't blame PayPal for users' stupidity if they are stupid enough to leave larger sums on deposit. Withdrawing your money is easy and free. There is no reason not to do it except to avoid credit card fees when making payments. The amounts needed for that purpose don't have to be onerous.
Besides freezing funds entirely, holding a rolling 30% of a balance is a regular occurrence - if you think that's insubstantial, you haven't operated as a small business as a primary means of income.

Anywho, that's enough tangential discussion on PP for me.
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Old 09-19-17, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by nycphotography
The world is full of people who don't see the problem with violating and wrecking other peoples lives because hey it must be their own fault or it wouldn't be happening to them, or mostly just because they don't really bother to stop and think about what if it happened to them.

The problem is that in any "litigation" process that is company owned and internal, the end result will almost always protect the interest of the company and not the interests of anyone else. This really goes against every thing the US is built on and stands for. IMO, it is also contributing to somewhat too the "wall st recovery that has left main street behind". The big commercial interests are being served and the individuals are increasingly left to eat cake. Now it hasn't broken down yet... but this trend is definitely not healthy for the country and probably not for the world either.

Paypal takes arbitrary and sometimes devastating actions against people, sometimes completely destroying their livelihood, and there is no effective check, balance or due process to which an aggrieved party can appeal. Google does the same thing with their revenue producing products like adsense.

While one can argue "just don't do business with A or B and you won't have anything to worry about" that sophomoric argument fall flat when A or B represent over half the market share. Imagine monetizing a publishing enterprise today without Google and tell me how successful you'll be?

When amazon, ebay, paypal, google and facebook eventually control 75% of ecommerce.... This lack of checks and balances will be untenable. It already is really. But it will have to reach the point where it's obvious even for the people who don't like to think too hard about things, and then it will still require a couple poster child examples before anyone can really work up the energy to care. Hopefully by then it won't be too late.

Do we have any historical references that may shed any light on how human nature will manifest itself with good will and decency given such a concentration of economic power? Yes, I think we might:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism

Sorry for the ramble... but this is effectively why Paypal (as it is currently operated) is vile and evil.
Oh, give me a break.

How about some documented examples of "arbitrary and sometimes devastating actions against people, sometimes completely destroying their livelihood", cases where there would even be a livelihood if it were not for PayPal to begin with.
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Originally Posted by LAJ
No matter where I go, here I am...

Last edited by rpenmanparker; 09-19-17 at 09:48 AM.
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