Monument Man

Hi, Can anybody educate me on the difference between different Litespeed frames/models? I've had my eye on a bike called the Teramo, which is a compact geometry frame with full Ultegra and Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheels. I understand the componentry, and I would be very happy with both the wheels and the Ultegra. The distinctions between Ti frames have got me confused.

this frame is 3Al/2.5V titanium. What can I expect from this frame? How does it compare to other Ti frames like the Vortex 6Al/4V Ti? There is a huge difference in price between these Ti frames.

I'm looking to buy a used (<500 miles) 2004 Teramo in size XL (59cm) with the Ultegra and Mavic Ksyrium Elites, no pedals. Is $1600 a fair price? I currently ride a 57cm Lemond Poprad (traditional geometry w/Lemond long top tube) which seems to fit me well although I bought it off the internet and it's my first road bike (nothing to compare it to). I'm 6' 1.5" and wear pants with a 32" inseam. The bike is far away and not at a shop so I don't want to drive all the way there to diss this guy unless I'm really serious about this bike. Anybody know how much this bike weighs? How does the ride compare to the 853 Reynolds Steel I'm currently riding?

Done 1500 miles since April on the Poprad, and would deinfitely enjoy an upgrade from the Sora components. Plus I could sell the Poprad.

velocipedio

my review of my 2005 teramo:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ghlight=teramo

Monument Man

wow man your bike sounds awesome. You say it weighs around 16lbs?

Do you have any idea how the Mavic Elites compare with your wheels in terms of performance and weight? Also is Ultegra similar to Campy Chorus roughly in terms of weight?

I guess my one concern is the size/fit. Would you recommend a 59cm compact frame to a guy who is 6'1" with a 32 in. inseam? I'm sure you've got tons of experience. I know that in the end, it'll be a very personal decision, yet I'm trying to figure if 59cm is just not even in the right ballpark.

velocipedio

ultegra weighs a bit more than chorus.

the real design wheels are about 1450 g, the ksyrium elites are about 1800 g.

59 cm MIGHT be in the ballpark. it really depends on your proportions. the teramo top tube is about 1.2 cm longer than the 57 poprad. the poprad standover of the poprad is about 4 cm higher than the compact teramo.

i would prefer to see a 6'1" guy on a 57 cm teramo, but if you have a long torso, you might be able to get away with the 59.

Monument Man

cool thanks dude. That's what I thought. I found a real nice LBS today (had to stop for some equipment on the ride home) and they happened to sell Litespeeds. They also happened to have a XL Teramo in stock. Without pedals and without assistance I couldn't get a real feel for the fit, yet I lifted the thing and man it was way light. I'm really drawn to the natural materials: steel and Ti. Beauty bike. Enjoy your ride and thanks for the help.

BTW I don't dare ask what your guys had to pay for your bike with the industry discount.

Monument Man

Any other Ti people who can explain the difference between 3AL/2.5V Titanium vs. 6Al/4V Titanium?

Also do you think that $1,600 for an '04 Teramo with full Ultegra and Mavic Ksyrium Elite Wheels is a good deal? (Everything else is stock: carbon post, fork,etc)

Markedoc

https://www.bikesportmichigan.com/rev...uscany03.shtml

read that to answer your Ti question

clfjmpr44

Wile this might be biased towards 3AL/2.5V because that is what they use, this is what my bike manufacturer ( www.habcycles.com ) has to say on the different grades of Ti. Hope it helps

What's the deal with all the different kinds of titanium?
3Al/2.5V Habanero frames are built from 3Al/2.5V titanium alloy, or titanium alloyed with 3% Aluminum and 2.5% Vanadium. This is an ideal material to build a frame from, since it has an incredible strength to weight ratio, but is still resilient enough to withstand considerable flex without permanent damage. This is the material almost all of the highest quality titanium bike frames are made from, and is a mainstay in the aerospace industry because of its impressive properties.

6Al/4V This alloy (as you'd probably guess by now) is comprised of titanium alloyed with 6% aluminum and 4% Vanadium. There are a lot of claims made about the strength of 6/4, but most of it is based on "textbook" numbers for sheet stock, not tubing. Until recently, 6/4 bike frames were all made from seamed tubing, that is, flat sheets which have been rolled into a tube and welded. Some still are. The problem is that the weld reduces the strength and resilience of the tube. In addition, 6/4 can only take about half the elongation that 3/2.5 can before it's permanently damaged. In the final analysis, you end up with a bike that's at best just a little stronger, but maybe less able to absorb punishment - plus it'll be a LOT more expensive. We think it makes more sense to save the weight elsewhere in the bike, where it won't cost so much per gram.

CP - or - Commercially Pure titanium. There are many grades of this material being used to build "low end" titanium bike frames (kind of an oxymoron, huh?). CP titanium is easier to machine than the more exotic alloys, and it is even more resilient than 3/2.5 (it can "stretch" more without failing). However, it doesn't have the strength of 3/2.5 or 6/4 alloy, both of which are at least twice as strong as most grades of CP titanium.

Monument Man

cool thanks guys. I'm going to hope to figure out the fit of this bike I'm looking at. Man if it does fit I really would love a bike like this.

Moonshot

The teramo and vortex have a more agressive racing geometry than the tuscany, but not by much. The difference is the head tube of the tuscany is slightly taller allowing for a slightly more upright position.

Before you buy this bike check to see if you can get your money back if you aren't happy with it in any way just to be sure. www.preownedbikes.com which is where I got my 04 tuscany offers a 5 day money back test ride deal.

Arsbars

A new '05 Teramo with 10s Ult is about a grand more.
With that you do get 10s, and a warranty. Buying used will void the warranty that came with the bike (keep that in mind) and you'll also probably end up spending $50-100 for a shop to fit you correctly on the bike.

I'm not fully against buying used, but a high end road bike or mtn make me a bit uneasy. You don't get a warranty, you don't get a shops respect for buying it there. You get no free service or any fit help.

It seems price wise a good deal, but I don't remember what the '04 with 9sp Ult went for...

Moonshot

At the risk of again sounding like a preownedbikes.com salesman you do get a lifetime frame warranty with your purchase, but you're right in that you get no service nor fit support.

yakes_md

I think $1600 is a very fair price. I bought a used 2004 Teramo frame (XL) over the winter and got myself on the road in late march. I definitely notice a difference between the Teramo and the Trek 1500 I was riding before. The new bike is more responsive and just generally quicker. I estimate that I have picked up about 1mph since switching bikes. True, you won't have the warranty, but I don't worry about that with the frame. Unless I crash hard, I don't think I'm going to damage it. BTW, my bike ended up costing me about $1300 - 105 sti shifters and derallieurs, Ultegra cranks, DA bottom bracket and hubs, open pro rims (32 spoke). Fizik saddle, stock Litespeed seatpost & fork, cheap performance stem & handlebars, old Look pedals, old Diacomp brakes (cost $1.00 - I'm on a budget). Comes in around 20 pounds. Yours should be a pound or so lighter. Also, I am just about exactly your size. Good luck.

RC2

I'm trying to find a Tuscany and Vortex to ride (not one bike shop in my state has had one in the last ~year). I like the conventional horizontal TT. With the Tuscany, though, I'm worried about some flex. I'm 190 lb, 6'2". Can anyone with a Tuscany comment on climbing/sprinting performance? Is there much BB or front end flex?

Monument Man

Re: Used vs. New purchase

I weigh all the options for my decision. Buying a lightly used, last year's bike from a guy who owns 9 bikes comes with advantages and disadvantages.

On the minus side I do not get any fit nor warranty. I have to trust him that the bike is well taken care of, and won't fall apart. While I won't have an LBS to finetune my riding position, I feel that I have 1500 miles under my belt this year and have my current bike totally dialed in without any LBS help. So all I really need is to determine which size frame to buy, and I can pretty much get the thing fully dialed in. I've got exact measurements of the seat height which I'm currently using (and so forth) and would use those as a beginning setup (taking the new frame geometry differences into account) and tweak the position from there. Regarding the warranty, I'd be worried about the components, not the frame, and the components are inexpensive enough that the cost savings of the bike outweighs the purchase price to replace individual components if they failed.

On the plus side I can get a far nicer bike than I could otherwise afford.

I'm handy with tools and have had a great experience buying my Lemond off eBay. 1500 miles on the bike so far and I'm cranking 37 miles per day.

motomickey

I used to weigh 280 and felt very little to no flex on my tuscany. I weigh 250 now (thanks to 1400 miles on the TUSCANY) and don't feel any flex. The only flex I felt on the bike was with the forks, and I switched those to EASTON ec-90 SL anf fixed most of that. My previous bike was the Litespeed 04 firenze, and I did feel flex with it-which was one of the reasons I upgraded to the tuscany.

watchman

like Moonshot, I got my Vortex from preownedbikes too, good way to go i think. Since ti doesn't wear out or damage easily, you get all new components and a lifetime factory warranty. I wasn't able to tell if my frame had actually been riden. It was stated as being in "like new" condition and that was the truth. Yes, you do need to know the frame measurements you want/fit, with those numbers the salespeople were very good at determining how the bike you are interested in would fit you. So yeah at the risk of sounding like a salesperson, I would suggest people take a look at there site if you are interested in Litespeeds.

RC2

Good news -- so other than the Vortex being made with 6/4 there is really no difference in Vortex-Tuscany other than a 0.5cm shorter head tube and $1500. Per litespeed's geometry tables...
size TT SA HT CS Stndovr
vortex 59 57.5 73 18.4 40.6 82.7
tuscany 59 57.5 73 18.9 40.6 82.7

Is it just the cost of the 6/4 in play or am I missing something? ($1500 difference for Chorus, same wheelset, same other stuff...wow.)

bob338

i also bought a vortex from preownedbikes.com recently and am very pleased with my purchase. they helped me figure out the correct size, had me go to dealers for test rides and even talked me out of a couple of bikes that wouldn't fit me.
i think the tuscany was an awesome ride, and had i not gotten such a deal on the vortex, i probably would have bought it.

Moonshot

I think you've pretty much pegged it. That's why some dealers call the Tuscany a 3/2 version of the Vortex.

RC2

OK, the ONLY difference btwn a Litespeed Vortex and Tuscany, other than 0.5cm in the head tube (not much, a spacer negates that completely), is 3/2 Ti vs. 6/4 Ti. Oh yeah, and $1500. Same wheelset, grouppo, seat/post, sheesh, even the paint (or lack of).

Thats ~30%!!!!!!! Is 6/4 really worth 30% more dollars? Is it really that much more labor/cost-intensive to build? I can understand the premium if it's insanely hard to weld vs. 3/2 and only the top 1% of welders can manage it (or if 30% of the frames end up getting scrapped b/c of the difficulty).

I guess it's just that I've heard of the stiffness benefit (although I thought it was smallish) from 6/4 with a minor flex/vibration damping tradeoff as being a *SLIGHT* ++ for those interested in high-power output w/minimal flex (sprints, climbs, pretty much racing-only). But I've never heard of anyone touting a 6/4 benefit that was worthy of anything close to a 30% price premium. Any thoughts????