WheresWaldo

I would like to start this thread so that we can have a place to put our impressions of the Motobecane Immortal Force/Spirit carbon bicycles. I have some thoughts already about the bike and I can see where compromises were made. This is not a thread to bash Motobecane or BikesDirect, but rather to allow others to know what to expect if they buy one of these bikes.

I hope other IF/IS owners join in this discussion to the benefit of all on BikeForums.

NRRider

Can you share with us where you think compromises were made?

WheresWaldo

First impressions:

The packing was typical of all bike manufacturers, except no bubble wrap in the box. Things were strapped together and wrapped in cardboard. The masking tape they used to hold the cardboard on dried up and left residue on the frame itself, it wasn't too hard to clean up.

Handlebars were too small for a 56cm frame. Tape job could have been better. Cables housings were too long. The RitcheyLogic Pro handlebars have an odd shape with almost no hand position at the bottom of the drops.

The Ritchey Pro stem was also too short for the bike, it was 90mm. I am assuming that all the bikes here have the same stem and that their mention of Proportional sizing must mean in proportion to how many of one size they have in stock and not proportioned to the size of the frame.

Here is the worst part. When I pulled the fork off, there was a star nut in the carbon steerer tube. I guess it it easier to assemble that way but that is not how you build a quality bike.

The frame was actually really nice with some exceptions. The paint at the rear dropouts was rather brittle, and as the bike was stripped some of the paint cracked. So I pulled off the removeable derailleur hanger and stripped all the paint off. I will also pull some more paint off the other dropout. The bottom bracket was not faced properly and the threads needed to be chased. They did use anti-seize on the bottom bracket threads so that was a good thing. It is light, just 2.46 lbs bare frame 56cm. The clearcoat finish is very nice, there were no chips or scratches on the frame. The waterbottle bolts are alloy, but no grease or anti-seize were used on them. As a matter of fact no grease or anti-seize of any kind was to be found on any of the threaded surfaces except the BB. The fork seems nice enough, it is made by a company called Advanced Composites, it has a slightly odd profile and I wished the had layed up the CF with the overlap on the inside of the fork instead of on the outside. Still the star nut just kills me.

The Ritchey Protocols are a thing of beauty. They are light and seem to be well assembled. I will put my Park Tensionometer on the spokes later to see if they were tensioned properly. The rest of the Ritchey components were their Pro series, not the best, but not bad.

Ultegra is Ultegra, not much to say here. I did expect the cranks to be 172.5s, and they were, A+ for getting that one right. The pedals are some sort of single sided SPD type they look like some sort of cheap Taiwan ripoffs.

Props to BD for including red handlebar tape in the box. I don't know anything about the Kenda tires so I will not make any observations. I will reserve judgement on the saddle until later.

If I didn't know how to wrench, I would be very careful buying a Motobecane from BD or any other bike from an e-tailer. But all in all, with a few adjustments and some juditious replacement parts this will be a fine riding bike, and good looking too!

[edit by forum admin 02/01/2007] Please note that the issue of the star nut was brought to the attention of BikesDirect. Below is a summation of their comments on the subject:

All currently shipping Immortals with carbon fiber steerer tubes are shipping with compression plugs.
All Immortal Pros have aluminum steerer tubes and thus use the regular star nut - nobody uses a compression plug on an aluminum.

We have sold thousands of Carbon fiber steerer tube bikes without any steerer tube failures due to defect or star nut issues.

We are aware of a single individual out there on the internet who made one post about finding a star nut in one of the very first Immortals. He did contact us about it and we did get him taken care of. However, this was at least a couple years ago.

To re-iterate - All Immortal Pros have had aluminum steerer tubes and use the proper star nut
Immortal Forces and Spirits currently shipping have carbon steerer tubes and compression plugs.

55/Rad

Nice report - please explain your frustration with the star nut and the carbon steerer. What should have been done?

55/Rad

WheresWaldo

Since a star nut cuts into the tube material to hold itself in place there is the possibility for premature failure of the steerer tube. It is probably not likely since it is near the top of the tube and the stresses there should be less. That said, you should never have anything that would cut some through some of the fibers. A compression plug is what should have been used instead.

A compression plug does require more time to seat and adjust the headset. It usually is just really a matter of seconds to minutes tops, but still it's more time. A star nut installation can be totally automated and dome by a robot, faster, easier, cheaper.

ravenmore

won't a typical star nut damage a carbon steerer on an all carbon fork? Sounds pretty typical of a Bikesdirect project. Great price. Great parts. Really bad assembly. Great value though if you're good with a wrench or can pay someone who is to go over it.

ravenmore

we posted at the same time it looks like

NRRider

WheresWaldo--thanks a lot for the detailed summary!

GuitarWizard

Ok....checked it out....I don't see a delivery time, and Os hasn't posted either....

Some of us have money riding on this.

WheresWaldo

Os' bike showed up 3 minutes after mine, and I posted a pic of the complete bike a little over an hour ahead of him.

GuitarWizard

You guys should buy bikes at the same time more often....good stuff.

Ostuni

great post...

dinner is burning so must be quick....

am taking mine upstairs later tonight and will report back here...

this is the 3rd moto from bd, and this box was in the best condtion - no holes or gashes in the box, no skewer sticking out, etc.

was annoyed to find the seatpost rolling around loose in the bottom of the box, otherwise no complaints about the packing or the condition of the bike... (i took photos of the bike in the box, just out of the box, etc. to use as a guide the next time i need to pack one...)

the long shifter cable housing: ditto here - the cable housing on my le champ team was at least 8 in. too long...

the star nut is a frightening bit of news - thanks for sharing that....

the wheelset is one of the reasons i bought this bike! they are wonderful....

surprised you got a 90mm stem.... both 56cm motos i have (had) came with 110... when i figure out what stem i'll use on which bike we might could swap?

dinner on fire - will scrutinize every sq. mm of the bike tonight and check back here...

thanks again for the excellent report...

ps. there are some weak reviews of those kenda tires around, but really like the ones that came on my le champ team... and my rear likes that saddle a lot - same as the team's...

Ostuni

i should buy bikes LESS often....

WheresWaldo

I was expecting a 110 stem. It's possible we might be able to swap, remember I am just 80 or so miles up the road.

WheresWaldo

Here are some other observations. I mentioned before that the Ritchey components were in the PRO series. Well, the cheaper Le Champion SL has Ritchey WCS seatpost, stem and OS handlebars. The tires are better quality Vittoria Diamante Pro Lite vs Kenda Kaliente Lite. This I am sure is a cost cutting measure to keep the full carbon under the $2000 price point.

I weighed the tires they were 207g each not the 185g listed on the website.
The frame is actually lighter than advertised, I weighed it at 1115g (2.46 lbs) the website lists it at 2.7 lbs (1225g).
The fork is 330g cut w/starnut installed. That is OK for a carbon fork but not in the weight weenie range. The fork offset is not the same as listed on the Motobecane webpage, there they list offset as 45mm the fork has a sticker on it that lists is at 43mm. That actually does provide slightly more trail which might be the reason for others saying it is very stable on high speed descents.

I will have a better idea tomorrow after I pick up the frame at the LBS, just what kind of deal we really got.

I also have some thought on what will go and what will stay. What stays is the groupset, wheelset, frame, fork (for now), saddle (also for now). What goes are the tires (already replaced with the Diamante Pro Lite my daughter didn't want), stem (I have an EA70 120mm that is too long, but better than a 90mm), seatpost, handlebars, some of the cable housing (they are all too long). What gets added are FlightDeck computer mount, bottle cages (the carbon ones I had on the TST), aero saddlebag.

Ostuni

never made it upstairs to the bike shop (have been spackling and painting interior walls after taking down curtain rods...)

pretty sure i will end up with an extra 110mm stem (the ritchey pro), and probably won't need the 90, but in that event you can have my 110 for a sub-ebay price....

had the same vittorias on the moto le champ sl - great tires....

i've got a lot of bits and pieces to work with here... the two major calls i've got to make are the crankset (keep the ultegra or put on the truvativ roleur) and the handlebars (have a new xrp carbon bought from bd that i'm either gonna put on the if or ebay...)

other than swapping the cassette, that will do it for me...

how did you determine your bb needed to be faced and tapped? did you see lateral movement when spinning the crank?

WheresWaldo

Remember, I have already completely disassembled the frame, when I tried to put the BB back it was obvious to me that they did not align properly, looking at the threads they appeared fine but the non-drive side bearing simply would not thread. It was better to take it to the shop to have them clean it up than to force them on as the factory BD bought these from did.

How do you like the XRP carbon bars? I thought about those as a cheaper alternative to the FSA K-Wing on my TST. If you use the XRP you'll have to swap stems as the XRP is 31.8 OS and the Ritchey is only a 26mm bar/stem.

Ostuni

haven't touched the box they came in (an incredibly light box, too...)

having buyers remorse (again) and they might go ebay.... will see how i feel in the morning about them...

ViperZ

Nice reviews guys. Very objective opinons Waldo. My Litespeed fork came with a starnut installed as well. However the tube wall are so thick, its probably not a issue... The Reynolds is thin compared to the Litespeed, I actually think the Litespeed is stiffer when i do the squeeze test on the blades.

Bummer about the BB threads.

ravenmore

To be honest, from hanging out at the shop and chit chatting with my mechanic friends its not overly uncommon for a bike to show up to the dealer that needs the threads chased. I see them doing it every once in a while on bikes they're assembling for the shop inventory. Last time my buddy Greg was chasing the threads on a frame he bought for his personal use - a high end Giant mountain bike frame I think.

It seems that these problems are not unusual and that if you buy from a LBS they filter these problems out before the bike hits the floor. If you buy from Bikesdirect you obviously lose this advantage.

WheresWaldo

I now have the frame back from the LBS. He said the BB was almost perfect, that all he had to do was shave off so little it took more time to set it up than to actually do it. But now the threads are really good too. I have send an email to BD to see if they will send me a new fork and stem based on my concerns.

Ravenmore, it's funny the Le Champion SL I bought for my daughter does not have a star-nut. It uses a compression plug like I would have expected. Easton and Profile Designs both included compression plugs with the forks I got from them. This will be the first time I will have to deal with their customer service. we shall see how that goes.

Ostuni

Looks like I'll be emailing BD too.

Spent an hour or so trying to get the FD basically adjusted. Was not going well. Had the Park Tool tutorial printed out, was using the Shimano docs, but just couldn't get it to act right.

So took it down to the LBS, and Kevin put it right up on the stand and had a look. Then another look. Head scratch. A third look. Another head scratch.

The owner is called over to consult. He takes a look and says 'That sucks.'

Their conclusion: The braze-on mount was not installed correctly. To far forward on the seat tube.

They started thinking about finding something to use as a shim, but we put an end to that and called it a night......

Just got back from a great ride (on the Team) and will post pics soon of the fd, the braze-on mount, etc.

Thought about getting a second opinion, but those two guys are good and they were cock-sure....

Waldo, if you can, compare the placement of yours with mine when I get the pics up?

Ostuni

Pics of the FD and braze-on mount... Waldo, these angles probably make it hard to compare to yours, but let me know if you can see any difference? Cheers.

ViperZ

That sucks Ostuni... Was it not shifting? Obvioulsy.... However from those pictures it's had to see anything wrong.

ravenmore

Well, if its really off that blows. From my experience, no matter how much you trust and like your bike mechanic and shop, in such matters it doesn't hurt to go to another good shop and get their opinion. I've done it before, and my mechanic and I are drinking buddies. Don't say whats wrong, play a little dumb and see if the 2nd shop says the same thing.

If its off it'll be curious to see what BD does - first serious test to their warranty and customer service that I've seen. I'm sorry you have to be the Guinea pig, Ostuni. Good luck.

-Mike